Most Under-rated Rider

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Mar 3 2008, 03:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'd go with nicky hayden too.

I like RDP and would like to see him do well, but he is performing well in trials/practice, and he has always been good at that. I want to see some race day form. I still would have kept him ahead of west if I were kawasaki though.
agree

Agree with everyone else that De Puniet's underrated. Shined through with some great performances last year.

I was considering adding Toni Elias to this list, but he's constantly been outpaced by Melandri and didn't really make an impression last year, with the exception of a podium.

In regards to RdP, we will certainly find out this year if all the crashes he had in the past few years were "due to the bike". A few of those looked like bonehead mistakes. There are lots of other riders that qualify high, but when it comes to the race have a poor result, Colin Edwards comes to mind. So just because he qualifies high, does not mean a good race result. That said I hope he does well, and I would put him just outside the top 10 for a year end performance this year, just as he did last year.

Im going to go out on a limb here for most under-rated, mainly because this guy came into GP as over-rated. John Hopkins. His result last year was commendable. But now that he is on the green beast, I expect mixed performances from him this year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bootsakah @ Mar 3 2008, 08:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In regards to RdP, we will certainly find out this year if all the crashes he had in the past few years were "due to the bike". A few of those looked like bonehead mistakes. There are lots of other riders that qualify high, but when it comes to the race have a poor result, Colin Edwards comes to mind. So just because he qualifies high, does not mean a good race result. That said I hope he does well, and I would put him just outside the top 10 for a year end performance this year, just as he did last year.

Im going to go out on a limb here for most under-rated, mainly because this guy came into GP as over-rated. John Hopkins. His result last year was commendable. But now that he is on the green beast, I expect mixed performances from him this year.

I'd have to agree with you that John Hopkins is underrated. He is becoming the next Colin Edwards, great rider who never won anything except a few podiums. The only way that people will start looking at Hopkins as a real threat is if he starts to win a few races. I would'nt mind if he did.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 2 2008, 11:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'd say Hayden. Randy is an excellent candidate but it is very easy to argue either way with a rider who has or is showing potential. Nicky has achieved the ultimate prize in motorcycle racing and is spoken of as if he has always been average.

Nicky gets the respect he deserves and is rated to the level at which he rides....He does not get super man status of Rossi or Stoner since he did not win and dominate his title winning year...so Hayden looks average compared to Casey, Rossi and Pedroda....

RDP is massively underrated, since he rides out of his skin....but he is his own worse enemy...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ Mar 3 2008, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nicky gets the respect he deserves and is rated to the level at which he rides....He does not get super man status of Rossi or Stoner since he did not win and dominate his title winning year...so Hayden looks average compared to Casey, Rossi and Pedroda....

RDP is massively underrated, since he rides out of his skin....but he is his own worse enemy...

I actually rate Hayden up there with Rossi on technique and skill.

He arrived in Motogp a little too late imo.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Mar 3 2008, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'd have to agree with you that John Hopkins is underrated. He is becoming the next Colin Edwards, great rider who never won anything except a few podiums. The only way that people will start looking at Hopkins as a real threat is if he starts to win a few races. I would'nt mind if he did.

Sorry but Hopkins is gonna have to win a race to become anything but overrated guys.

Vermullin has won on a bike that Hopper couldnt do it on, the guy has done jack in GP. Put him in WSB, Im sure he could get to 5 now and again, but GP? not happenin.

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Captain Snow @ Mar 2 2008, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>nakano

+1

Wait, who is he again?

He doesn't even get a mention. Like Tamada before him landing on the Minolta Honda banished him to obscurity. Thankfully, Nakano has another chance. When he has a decent bike he can put it on the rostrum.

He's had the wrong tires for many seasons now. This year he has the final version of the 2007 RC212V and the Stones. He should score solidly this season.

I really wanted to say Colin, but everyone knows he doesn't try anymore. If you don't train and you are getting progressively worse, it's hard for anyone to say you're underrated.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MigsAngel @ Mar 3 2008, 09:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nicky gets the respect he deserves and is rated to the level at which he rides....He does not get super man status of Rossi or Stoner since he did not win and dominate his title winning year...so Hayden looks average compared to Casey, Rossi and Pedroda....

RDP is massively underrated, since he rides out of his skin....but he is his own worse enemy...
You make some good points. I think there has been a warming up to him that didn't exist last year (would you agree). So, I'd say, perhaps NOW he is beginning to get the respect you speak of, but it has evolved.

I'd add that on second thought, I could make a case that Hopkins may be the under-rated of the bunch. But I know Pete might disagree. However...

2nd post below:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Mar 3 2008, 02:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sorry but Hopkins is gonna have to win a race to become anything but overrated guys.

Vermullin has won on a bike that Hopper couldnt do it on, the guy has done jack in GP. Put him in WSB, Im sure he could get to 5 now and again, but GP? not happenin.
Hi Pete. I think both Chris and John are very likeable guys, so obviously this is not a factor.

You also make a good point, however, I have curious question for you (or anybody else).

How much did rain play a factor in Chris V. win?

It has been said that "rain is the great equalizer". This reference to the idea that in the rain, some advantages in equipment (as well as some deficiency in equipment) is masked, nullified, buffered by the rain. On top of that, some riders have a special ability to negotiate a bike in this type of weather, hence the "rain specialist" moniker of some riders. Vermulen is considered a "rain specialist". And he did win in the rain, on a bike that by all accounts is certainly not the top of the development curve in MotoGP. Perhaps an images of Olivier Jacques in China a few years ago will help support this idea of "rain as the great equalizer" who, if you recall (I had to google it) challenged for a race win on a bike that was easily the KR07 bike of its time.

So my follow-up question would be (depending on your answer of my first question):

To what degree do you factor in a better championship points standing overall for Hopkins in relation to the win that his teammate got, in the rain, and on similar equipment? (Both feats being very commendable: win vs. better consistency of running at the sharp end of results).

Hopkins finished, what is it, 4th in the standings last year thats pretty impressive on a suzuki

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dylan @ Mar 4 2008, 02:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hopkins finished, what is it, 4th in the standings last year thats pretty impressive on a suzuki
Both vermeulen and hopkins look like underperformers taking into account the talent each appears to have, but I agree with you that the suzuki may not have been a great bike. I agree with jumkie that the rain contributed heavily to vermeulen's victory, but he had a second in a dry race.

Vermy had a few tracks were he was stronger than Hopper. ( Le Man, Donnington - both wet )
Misano and probably Laguna Seca although Hopper did not get a chance to shine there, but on a whole Hopper was the quicker rider consistently.

Qatar - Hopper 4th - Vermy 7th
Jerez - Hopper 19th - Vermy 9th ( Hopper binned it while looking at a podium )
Istanbul - Hopper 6th - Vermy 11th ( vermy taken out on first lap - fastest lap of the race )
Shanghai - Hopper 3rd - Vermy 7th
Le Man - Hopper 7th - Vermy 1st ( wet race )
Mugello - Hopper 5th - Vermy 8th
Catalunya - Hopper 4th - Vermy 7th
Donnington - Hopper 5th - Vermy 3rd ( wet race )
Assen - Hopper 5th - Vermy 16th ( something happened to Vermy - Drive through?
Sachsenring - Hopper 7th - Vermy 11th
Laguna Seca - Hopper 15th - Vermy 2nd ( Hopper tangles with Hayden on first corner )
Brno - Hopper 2nd - Vermy 5th
Misano - Hopper 3rd - Vermy 2nd
Estoril - Hopkins 6th - Vermy 13th ( RDP tried a bonehead move on Chris costing him heaps )
Motegi - Hopkins 10th - Vermy 11th ( mixed race wet & dry )
Phillip Island - Hopkins 7th - Vermy 8th
Sepang - Hopkins 8th - Vermy 7th
Valencia - Hopkins 3rd - Vermy 6th

Overall - Hopkins 12 - Vermy 6
Wins - Hopkins 0 - Vermy 1
Podiums - Hopkins 4 - Vermy 4
Points - Hopkins 189 - Vermy 179

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Mar 3 2008, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>on a whole Hopper was the quicker rider consistently.

.....
..........
Overall - Hopkins 12 - Vermy 6
Wins - Hopkins 0 - Vermy 1
Podiums - Hopkins 4 - Vermy 4
Points - Hopkins 189 - Vermy 179
Wow, thanks for putting that together Frizz.

As far as “under-rated” goes, I have a special place for Hopkins in that he was snatched up young as a prodigy, but unfortunately has anguished in a perennial sub-par machine that is Suzuki (ask yourself, if Rossi "struggled" with the package these last two years, would he, as the gold standard, been able to do any better with the Suzuki during Hopkins tenure?). (I suppose this is “Hopkin's fault” according to the twisted perception of reality and flawed logic of Tom, keeping in mind that he thinks Kevin Schwants is “overrated”--yeah, I know, both stupid and crazy). But that's another topic I'll get to yet.

Either way, I would be thrilled to have either Vermi or Hoppa over for lunch.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 4 2008, 03:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wow, thanks for putting that together Frizz.

As far as “under-rated” goes, I have a special place for Hopkins in that he was snatched up young as a prodigy, but unfortunately has anguished in a perennial sub-par machine that is Suzuki (ask yourself, if Rossi "struggled" with the package these last two years, would he, as the gold standard, been able to do any better with the Suzuki during Hopkins tenure?). (I suppose this is “Hopkin's fault” according to the twisted perception of reality and flawed logic of Tom, keeping in mind that he thinks Kevin Schwants is “overrated”--yeah, I know, both stupid and crazy). But that's another topic I'll get to yet.

Either way, I would be thrilled to have either Vermi or Hoppa over for lunch.


No worries
Easily the most entertaining team mate battle of 2007.
I'm just not convinced going to Kawasaki will pay off in 2008. it might in the long run though.
At least I hope it will.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 4 2008, 01:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hi Pete. I think both Chris and John are very likeable guys, so obviously this is not a factor.

You also make a good point, however, I have curious question for you (or anybody else).

How much did rain play a factor in Chris V. win?

It has been said that "rain is the great equalizer". This reference to the idea that in the rain, some advantages in equipment (as well as some deficiency in equipment) is masked, nullified, buffered by the rain. On top of that, some riders have a special ability to negotiate a bike in this type of weather, hence the "rain specialist" moniker of some riders. Vermulen is considered a "rain specialist". And he did win in the rain, on a bike that by all accounts is certainly not the top of the development curve in MotoGP. Perhaps an images of Olivier Jacques in China a few years ago will help support this idea of "rain as the great equalizer" who, if you recall (I had to google it) challenged for a race win on a bike that was easily the KR07 bike of its time.

So my follow-up question would be (depending on your answer of my first question):

To what degree do you factor in a better championship points standing overall for Hopkins in relation to the win that his teammate got, in the rain, and on similar equipment? (Both feats being very commendable: win vs. better consistency of running at the sharp end of results).


I agree with the idea that rain is "a great equaliser" and that a wet track will strip the faster machines of some of their advantage. However, in todays computer controlled world of TC etc, I wonder how much of that is being programmed out? At the end of the day, Vermy crossed the line first in a race which carries a lot of kudos. Is it more important than consistancy? Certainly not in 2006!

In my opinion, to cross the line from racer to great you have to win races, there are plenty of good, fast talented riders who have done their time in GP, but have never won a GP. I dont see any racer being truly happy until he/she knows that on that day, at that race, they were the boss.

But youre right Jumkie they both seem like decent guys. And for Vermy, being an Aussie, thats an achievement.
Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Mar 4 2008, 01:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hi Pete. I think both Chris and John are very likeable guys, so obviously this is not a factor.

You also make a good point, however, I have curious question for you (or anybody else).

How much did rain play a factor in Chris V. win?

It has been said that "rain is the great equalizer". This reference to the idea that in the rain, some advantages in equipment (as well as some deficiency in equipment) is masked, nullified, buffered by the rain. On top of that, some riders have a special ability to negotiate a bike in this type of weather, hence the "rain specialist" moniker of some riders. Vermulen is considered a "rain specialist". And he did win in the rain, on a bike that by all accounts is certainly not the top of the development curve in MotoGP. Perhaps an images of Olivier Jacques in China a few years ago will help support this idea of "rain as the great equalizer" who, if you recall (I had to google it) challenged for a race win on a bike that was easily the KR07 bike of its time.

So my follow-up question would be (depending on your answer of my first question):

To what degree do you factor in a better championship points standing overall for Hopkins in relation to the win that his teammate got, in the rain, and on similar equipment? (Both feats being very commendable: win vs. better consistency of running at the sharp end of results).

I would say the rain has little effect on the value of CV's victory. All the riders were out in those conditions, and Chris was the best in the world on that day. As for rain being an equalizer, that's a very very outdated idea now, with chassis, electronic and tyre technology as advanced and calculated as it is the demands of wet racing are simply different to those in the dry, but level it certainly is not.

As for championship position Vs race wins, the championship position is worth far more in my opinion. There is no point in being up at the front once or twice and sucking everywhere else. In a less extreme case, Hopkins was the better rider at suzuki last year regardless of how many races Chris won because John scored more points.

But i wouldn't call Hopkins underrated at all, he hasn't really achieved anything but gets a lot of hype regarding his talent. But i ask you what use it talent if you don't actually use it to do anything?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (basspete @ Mar 4 2008, 05:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>... both seem like decent guys. And for Vermy, being an Aussie, thats an achievement.
Pete

Alas, if only there was Scotsman in MotoGP that we could all learn to like (or dislike for that matter)! Seems like we might be waiting a long time for that to happen!

I'll give my underrated vote to Nicky Hayden by a BIG margin!

In my opinion its Vermeulen, I think on a fully competitive bike he could be challenging Stoner, Rossi and co for the title.

I disagree with everyone who put RDP, even though I like the guy I think he's too inconsistant and makes way too many mistakes, most noticable him taking out Vermeulen and Pedrosa in seperate races last season.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Haga @ Mar 4 2008, 07:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I disagree with everyone who put RDP, even though I like the guy I think he's too inconsistant and makes way too many mistakes, most noticable him taking out Vermeulen and Pedrosa in seperate races last season.
Hi Haga,

I think Randy has been mentioned because he's tested well so far. The question is, can he turn around his "consistency" as did Stoner on a different machine? TBA. But if he does then certainly, I’d say he was under-rated. If he doesn’t, then I go with what you said. The good thing is, we will know by the end of this weekend!