More on the AMA/DMG dyno test

Thanks for the info, Povol.

I'm still confused about why they are doing this power to weight study. From the outset, DMG have stated the purpose of DSB is to create a class where the bikes are relatively evenly matched. The power to weight rules were rejected very early on.

I'm not at all surprised to hear that a majority of the 600s are well over the min weight. I would have been shocked if DMG's rules allowed them to shed 50-60 lbs.

What does this mean for Buell though. If the governing body added 15lbs then they were within the weight rules all along. I'm not suggesting they shouldn't have added the weight for parity's sake, but Edmondson did go out of his way to state the equipment would not be modified if it was within the rules (he was talking about SBK though).

Sounds like Ducati are screwed. No way they can get that bike up to speed for a reasonable price.

The whole stealth behind the test is the most telling thing here. Big ... cover up.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ May 5 2009, 02:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As far as i know, there is not a single Ducati 848 running in DSB. They are doing the power to weight ratio because the dissenting voices, like ours, and shrinking crowds have become to much to be ignored. The power to weight ratio was rejected very early in the game,before DMG started making special allowances to Buell. The japs were confident that under the rules,the 1125 would not be a threat.For the first 3 events of the year,Buell was allowed to run 20lbs under the specified rules for the Vtwins. They added 15 back to that figure before Barber and lowered the 600 from 365 to 360, a figure that according to rumors,cannot be attained with the parts on the approved list.Regardless of who weighs what, the Buell has a huge advantage in 2 very important areas of racing [hp & torque]. Once it gets to the front { the rolling starts are tailor made},it is virtually impossible to pass it unless you do a bonzai stuff job. The bike is so fast off the corner, Eslick can park the bike in a corner,hold the inside and power out. On the right track, he can power by the 600's on the straights and simply hold them at bay in the corners by actually slowing it down and daring them to go outside. Have you noticed how smooth Eslick is compareed to the 600 riders. Its not because he is a smoother rider,its because he doesnt have to hang it out at 110% to make a move. He can go at 90% and make things happen with the huge performance advantage. The whole series, acccording to Colin Frazer is about lap times and competition,not engine size and HP. That is not a formula for a professional series. It invites manipulation of the rules and sandbagging and we have seen both. DMG was manipulating the rules and Buell is sandbagging. The fans saw thru it and cried foul. Lets see what,if anything comes from the test. The next race should favor the 600's again,it is a slow technical track, slower than even Barber.

I thought you said the Buell was 397 lbs. If that's the case, the Buell was never running below 380. The problem was that the Japanese couldn't make their weight minimums under the rules and they couldn't produce enough power to be competitive.

DMG weren't fixing the game with allowances for Buell, they simply did a poor job with the initial rules package. I'm not sure why they lowered the weight for 600s though. That seems like a token PR effort at this point.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ May 5 2009, 05:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What i meant to say and got ahead of myself was, none of the bikes can reach minimum weights. The ratios dont lie though. The 2.65 pound per hp is a constant in the math equation for Buell, as are the ratios for thw other bikes If it weighed
425 pounds,it would have dynoed at 160.3 hp and so on. Basically what you have is like a diminishing return.The Buell weighs 25 more pounds but has 25 more HP,or a 1hp per lb . In a controlled world, it should have an 9 hp advantage,not 25

I think DMG are just stuck. A twin has really wide gearing and an 1125R probably has much wider gearing than even an Aprilia. DMG has said they have the ability to control weight and revs in an attempt to alter performance, but chances are if DMG clipped even 500 revs off the top of the Buell, the bike would be massively slower. Furthermore, the Buell has the aerodynamics of a barn door so bad aero would probably compound the effects of reducing revs.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Buell is approaching the max operating weight for the Dunlop control tire as well.

I'm not suggesting that Buell doesn't have a big advantage, but on the same token I don't believe the AMA have many good options. I suppose they could examine the special parts dispensations (they already have I'm sure) in a bid to make the bike slightly slower, but it seems to be a difficult task.

I also think the Japanese bikes probably get 5% power gains with the ram air effect. I don't think Buell has any ram technologies on the 1125R

Things seem to be pretty evenly matched right now, I don't think Buell are that far ahead, but I DO think Aprilia may need a little more power. The RSV also has long gears, it may not be a barn door like the Buell but it would probably benefit from a few extra revs.

What do you think?

1. Buell
2. Suzuki
3. Yamaha
4. Kawasaki
5. Honda
6. Aprilia
7. Triumph

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ May 5 2009, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The power of the Buell should be cut to the point to where riders decide the outcome of the race. Eslick can hit cruise control and win without working to hard. Lets look at the season so far. Daytona had all the looks of a Buell win till the radiator fell off. He dominated Fotana, won 1 race at Atlanta and was looking pretty good in the other till the red flag came out with 3 ro go.Barber was a crap shot because of weather, and a crash in qualifying had him way back in the field but still got 2 good finishes. Actually better than i thought on a tight track. Hacking, Herrin, Disalvo, Davies, and even RL Hayden [when he has his head on straight] are all better riders than Danny Eslick but are riding the ragged edge trying to stay with him. Bottom line is, this is a lousy recipe for a proffesional series. Can you create close racing,sure,but the rules are in a constant state of flux and that will turn off more fans than it will turn on. What is the one major compalint about NASCAR over the last 20 years and the stigma that has attached itself to the series. Constant rules changes in the guise of safety and competition. Over time,the perception was that NASCAR was trying to fix the series,mainly for GM. True or not,all that matters is what the paying public thinks. One thing i know for sure, the going to the track habit was a hell of a lot easier to break than i thought it would be.Like i said before, Every race weekend that i normally attend, im buying myself something. I bought the dirt bike with Daytona and Road Atlanta money, I bought some sweet ... gear for the woods this past weekend with the Barber money. By the way,your list seems to be dead balls on. Yoshi must have gotten bored and decided to lend M4 a hand,that team has got hot.

Eslick doesn't seem capable of hitting cruise control now that they've added 15lbs to his bike. I know this weekend was mixed conditions but Eslick didn't exactly set the world on fire, and he's no longer leading the championship. Hacking (with 0 wins) is leading ATM. Not dissing Hacking, but in a championship where people are complaining about who's winning, the race winners are not even at the top of the pile. They run so many races in DSB it's more about attrition than flashy performances (same as WSBK).

I don't think the DSB rules package is unprofessional. I think it would be completely unacceptable if DSB was the only American racing class, but motorcycles are cheap so the AMA can run 4 or 5 classes. The only thing marginalizing DSB is the lack of a true supersport class. The Japanese manufacturers want an American championship that they know can only be won by a 600cc SS bike. If they get the old SS class back, they will quit whining, so will the fans.

If DMG will work out a deal with the manufacturers so they will support SS and DSB, the AMA will be drastically improved. Allow internal engine mods (mainly piston mods) to the 600cc bikes in DSB and let them make 140hp like the old FX bikes. People will accept DSB if it resembles FX, mainly because FX has been a free-for-all with wildly shifting rules since it was introduced. DMG could probably silence a lot of critics if they just dropped the name DSB as well

I agree with you Lex, bring back SS. Supersport has always been one of the most exciting classes for racing. Also as you pointed out, it would make the Japanese manuf. happy as 600cc bikes are top selling machines. Of course then DMG's coveted DSB class would be relegated to the same status as these ........ endurance classes they have now.

I also dislike the DSB moniker for the class. Blatant abuse by the series promoter to use their name. Wouldn't it be great if say a condom company bought the rights to run the series. Trojan Super Bike, has a nice ring to it.

Bring back SS and let the juniors ride a 125cc class or some cheap 450 single.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ May 6 2009, 01:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thats just it,they havent added 15 lbs to the Buell. They were not at 365 or even close to it [397].The 600's cant get to 360 either,it all part of the misinformation campaign.They dont have to add the 15 to the 397. all they have to do is weigh over 380 tank empty. They can drop 17 more pounds and still be legal

Yes, you must be right. I still seems like they have done something to the Buell because Eslick was off it this weekend. I know Barber is tight but the Buell has massive low-end which is a huge advantage at that track.

DMG may have reduced the revs then released this phony bulletin to make it look like they were doing something.

If they release the hp and weight data, the ruse will be revealed. I don't think they want anyone to know they are playing around with the revs even though Edmondson admitted it in his 9 page epic on Speed.

BTW:

AMA Technical Bulletin

They've updated the technical bulletin. I can't tell what has changed but the Aprilia flywheel mod looks new.