Márquez handed qualification penalty at Phillip Island

michaelm said:

You are correct that what stoner says or has done has nothing to do with whether marquez was at fault in this incident for which he has been justly penalised in my view.



Stoner says that going slow on the racing line is dangerous, period, and I agree with him. I previously cited the shobert /magee incident in this context as an example that such incidents could be non-trivial and you agreed with me, although this was before you were (rightly) pissed off by his behaviour in the incident with nicky. It is speed disparity though which creates the problem, and that is very much more likely to occur on the racing line, independent of the motivation or justification of the riders concerned.



If stoner behaved as you say he did this makes him inconsistent and hypocritical (particularly in view of the comment he made about the marquez incident), an occasional occurrence even with such paragons of logical consistency as you and me, rather than wrong. I have a feeling practice starts are not strictly legal anyway, but was he personally doing practice starts on the racing line?.

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Mike, thanks for the exchange.



I agree with Stoner saying its dangerous for slow riders to be on the track, and really, who disagrees with this, yes, but I felt it was not warranted to bring up in this case because I felt it placed a bit of blame on Wilairot, even as just a correlation.



Well Stoner did slow down and a rider motored past him and he conducted race starts at the same spot where the Marc/Wilairot incident happened. I don't see anything wrong with what Stoner did, as most other riders did the same, so perhaps its a professional understanding. Which is why I don't understand why you brought up the Stoner issue while discussing the M/W issue. But ok, I've managed to drag this on enough to kill time before the qual practice. Its all good dude. We all good.



Mr. Squiz, you suck.

Jums, I may be wrong here and I am sure you will tell me I am but the chronology of CS mention in this thread has me off the podium in terms of positioning.



He was mentioned many times prior to my posts yet, because it would seem that CS is involved once again we have a mountain out of a molehill and opinions that differ seem to follow the 'when I want your opinion I will give it to you' line.



Fact - Willarot and Marquez were involved in an unfortunate incident after (and that is the keyword as well Hawks), after the chequered flag had been shown and thus the session had ended. There can be no excuse for riders colliding so far past the chequered flag after it had bee nshown (note that some collisions immediately have occurred).



Someone is to blame and whilst the penalty may not in some eyes fit the crime, at least the rider has been penalised (although he has also ruined another's weekend).



CS has nothing to do with this incident ..................... SIMPLE.



The linking of the two is unnecessary as CS was not on track nor in class when the incident occurred, but it was done and he was even asked by journalists (how dare they)



Additionally, may I suggest that CS and others even commenting on the incident may also therefore be as irrelevant.









Gaz

hawkdriver said:

What Casey says and does regarding safety are two different things and why Jumkie and I critisize him for it. At the end of FP3 Casey and multiple other riders stop all over the track at the exit of a turn and practice their launches. Is it okay for him to stop in almost the middle of the track at the exit of a turn but god forbid a guy going slow during a cool down lap?

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Hawk,



Therein lay a major difference IMO.



After the chequer has been shown there becomes no 'racing line' and (as Jums alludes to) generally speaking all riders button off.



To me, what CS (sorry Jums, responding here not raising it) does after the chequer in this case does not correlate to what he does during 'live' track.



The fact that he mentions his displeasure with slow riders whilst criticising Marquez is unfortunate in that it can easily be read as 'does he part blame Willarot' but that is his way (ie. speak, engage gear now)







Apologies to Jums for mentioning CS again, damn must be a bopper







Gaz

I've taken the time to watch this a few times now and I tend to agree with the mob who thinks Marquez got off light. Poor Wilairot was doing nothing wrong and potentially could have been severely injured by MM. This is exactly the type of incident that race direction should be striving to stop. I'd like to see some more press on how this has affected Wilairot's weekend... if he cannot race then MM should be (have been) suspended. I'm feeling bad for the only Thai rider... early last off-season his father (a great racer too) died, then while riding pillion his buddy dumps a scooter and he gets brain damage but recovers for the start of the season (which turns out not to be on par with the potential he was showing last year), now he gets rammed by a .... not using HIS brain... Hope Ratthapark's Buddhist sensibilities let him write-off this year and come back in 2012 with a vengeance!!!!!

Jumkie said:

Mike, thanks for the exchange.



I agree with Stoner saying its dangerous for slow riders to be on the track, and really, who disagrees with this, yes, but I felt it was not warranted to bring up in this case because I felt it placed a bit of blame on Wilairot, even as just a correlation.



Well Stoner did slow down and a rider motored past him and he conducted race starts at the same spot where the Marc/Wilairot incident happened. I don't see anything wrong with what Stoner did, as most other riders did the same, so perhaps its a professional understanding. Which is why I don't understand why you brought up the Stoner issue while discussing the M/W issue. But ok, I've managed to drag this on enough to kill time before the qual practice. Its all good dude. We all good.



Mr. Squiz, you suck.

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I acknowledge as gaz has that stoner's comment perhaps implied, and if so unjustifiably, some fault on wilairot's part when there is none; no central connection between ears and mouth as gaz says and as stoner has demonstrated on occasion in the past.



I speak more fluent australian than you and I think his point, which is one I myself have argued in the past citing the shobert/magee thing, may have been that if such a potentially serious accident can occur when riders think there is no reason to worry about being slow on the racing line and the following rider is not entitled to be going flat-out then it is a risk (it might be suggested more so) when a following rider is entitled to be going at maximum warp. I argue this against those who contend that this is an acceptable/expectable part of bike racing, as some have said even in regard to the marquez/wilairot thing.

Jumkie said:

Or simply challenge you on yours. You and Squiz may not like it, but if I take you to task and all you got is nothing but frustration, then I'll take it as you concede. haha. Btw, "imposing will"? Hahaha, uhm, newsflash, this is the 'internet' reply at your own will my friend, you're the one behind the keyboard. As if I'm the only one of the opinion that Marc ...... up. And then I'm suppose to be convinced this happened before the flag, because X guy was there? And then its related some how to Stoner's asking people to get out of his way in practice? That's a long stretch, but by all means, swallow it whole. You have been kown to swallow everything on Fox, so I guess you got plenty of room in that mouth. hehe, love Jum.

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Au contraire mon ami.....I always get a good laugh at your antics...errr...jedi mind tricks hehe

Jumkie said:

Mr. Squiz, you suck.

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Frustration?

Mr Squiggle said:

Frustration?

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Of course not, I'm only stating fact.

OK, finally found a proper video of the crash.



WHAT.THE...... ?!



Jumkie, I owe you and apology!

String up the little ...... in the nearest tree, and don't forget to include the ....... MORON who turned him loose with 1:02 left in the session.

Jumkie said:

Mike, thanks for the exchange.



I agree with Stoner saying its dangerous for slow riders to be on the track, and really, who disagrees with this, yes, but I felt it was not warranted to bring up in this case because I felt it placed a bit of blame on Wilairot, even as just a correlation.



Well Stoner did slow down and a rider motored past him and he conducted race starts at the same spot where the Marc/Wilairot incident happened. I don't see anything wrong with what Stoner did, as most other riders did the same, so perhaps its a professional understanding. Which is why I don't understand why you brought up the Stoner issue while discussing the M/W issue. But ok, I've managed to drag this on enough to kill time before the qual practice. Its all good dude. We all good.



Mr. Squiz, you suck.

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Apparently (source dennis noyes) there is now a designated position on the track where practice starts are allowed after the chequered flag, and this is where wilairot got taken out which makes it even harder to defend marquez. Also makes the part of stoner's comment pertaining to being slow on the racing line less relevant supporting your argument, but I guess as well that stoner wasn't being inconsistent or hypocritical in slowing down at this point for practice starts.



As geonerd says, what were marquez's team, presumably not entirely composed of 18 year olds, thinking in sending him out?

Geo Nerd said:

OK, finally found a proper video of the crash.



WHAT.THE...... ?!



Jumkie, I owe you and apology!

String up the little ...... in the nearest tree, and don't forget to include the ....... MORON who turned him loose with 1:02 left in the session.

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That's the reaction I had when I first saw it and then realized what happened. You know, you bring up a good point that I had glossed over. Marc is really just a kid (literally) and the adults in his garage should have kept him back with only seconds to go in the session (not sure, but reports have it at 55-40 secs). Its kinda like sending out a pit bull in a frenzy and then hoping it doesn't bite anybody. Then the team has the balls issue a protest. Anyway, I wish they would be a bit more human and issue some kind of an apology. I'm sure the kid feels bad about it, and I hope its not feeling bad about his championship as much as feeling bad about his attempted murder/suicide (or should I say attempted manslaughter/accidental-suicide--as Mike correctly points out is was not deliberate).

Mick D said:

I've taken the time to watch this a few times now and I tend to agree with the mob who thinks Marquez got off light. Poor Wilairot was doing nothing wrong and potentially could have been severely injured by MM. This is exactly the type of incident that race direction should be striving to stop. I'd like to see some more press on how this has affected Wilairot's weekend... if he cannot race then MM should be (have been) suspended. I'm feeling bad for the only Thai rider... early last off-season his father (a great racer too) died, then while riding pillion his buddy dumps a scooter and he gets brain damage but recovers for the start of the season (which turns out not to be on par with the potential he was showing last year), now he gets rammed by a .... not using HIS brain... Hope Ratthapark's Buddhist sensibilities let him write-off this year and come back in 2012 with a vengeance!!!!!

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Poor Wilairot seems to be cursed. He was laid out in a bed for months after that scooter accident. Now he gets laid out on track by what was the champ elect. Some people were jut born with bad luck I guess. Maybe he needs to start praying to Jesus.

Mick D said:

I've taken the time to watch this a few times now and I tend to agree with the mob who thinks Marquez got off light. Poor Wilairot was doing nothing wrong and potentially could have been severely injured by MM. This is exactly the type of incident that race direction should be striving to stop. I'd like to see some more press on how this has affected Wilairot's weekend... if he cannot race then MM should be (have been) suspended. I'm feeling bad for the only Thai rider... early last off-season his father (a great racer too) died, then while riding pillion his buddy dumps a scooter and he gets brain damage but recovers for the start of the season (which turns out not to be on par with the potential he was showing last year), now he gets rammed by a .... not using HIS brain... Hope Ratthapark's Buddhist sensibilities let him write-off this year and come back in 2012 with a vengeance!!!!!

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Poor Wilairot seems to be cursed. He was laid out in a bed for months after that scooter accident. Now he gets laid out on track by what was the champ elect. Some people were jut born with bad luck I guess. Maybe he needs to start praying to Jesus.

Gaz said:

Jums, I may be wrong here ...



CS has nothing to do with this incident ..................... SIMPLE.



The linking of the two is unnecessary as CS was not on track nor in class when the incident occurred, but it was done and he was even asked by journalists (how dare they)



Additionally, may I suggest that CS and others even commenting on the incident may also therefore be as irrelevant.

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Gaz, I was overreacting (not uncommon for me). Correct, you were not the first to bring up CS/slow rider thingy (actually now I'm not sure who it was first, Mike or somebody with much less faculties); anyway, when I first read CS/slow rider thingy, I felt it suggested that Wilairot has some blame (backed up by CS own comments on the incident). This is what I overreacted to with Mike, then with you. I apologize to both of you for being a obtuse. (Just explanation, I was pissed off about it all more than normal because of the all woes that have befell the Thai rider, see Mike D's post. ) I think we all know a 19 year old Marc isn't out to ruin the world and CS doesn't have the market cornered on safety, but both are good decent people. Anyway, thanks for the exchange buddy.

michaelm said:

Apparently (source dennis noyes) there is now a designated position on the track where practice starts are allowed after the chequered flag, and this is where wilairot got taken out which makes it even harder to defend marquez. Also makes the part of stoner's comment pertaining to being slow on the racing line less relevant supporting your argument, but I guess as well that stoner wasn't being inconsistent or hypocritical in slowing down at this point for practice starts. As geonerd says, what were marquez's team, presumably not entirely composed of 18 year olds, thinking in sending him out?

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Interesting, I suppose this is probably discussed during the safety/rider's meeting. At Laguna, its at turn 4 where they conduct practice starts. Where did you read Noyes? Anyway, all good, see previous post.^

Jumkie said:

Marc is really just a kid (literally) and the adults in his garage should have kept him back with only seconds to go in the session (not sure, but reports have it at 55-40 secs). Its kinda like sending out a pit bull in a frenzy and then hoping it doesn't bite anybody.

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Exactly! Here's a young, amped-up racer who has missed most of the session and is desperate to put in some good laps. Setup for the bike is critical - the whole season could hang in the balance. He probably doesn't know which way is up, much less how much time there is left in the session.

Wait.. wait.. wait...

"...., where's my bike?!?! HURRY GUYS!"

Suddenly, it's ready! Don't look, don't think, just GO as fast as you freaking can!



One of the pit dudes said something to him briefly just before he went out. I'd REALLY like to know what.

Maybe they meant for him to do nothing more than go scrub some tires, but Marquez never got the memo?



(...., the latest YT vid has been nuked...)

Anyway, it shows Marquez pulling out of his pit with 1:02 left in the session. Someone must(?) have realized that a proper lap was impossible. I'd like to hear an HONEST answer from someone on the team....

Jumkie said:

Gaz, I was overreacting (not uncommon for me). Correct, you were not the first to bring up CS/slow rider thingy (actually now I'm not sure who it was first, Mike or somebody with much less faculties); anyway, when I first read CS/slow rider thingy, I felt it suggested that Wilairot has some blame (backed up by CS own comments on the incident). This is what I overreacted to with Mike, then with you. I apologize to both of you for being a obtuse. (Just explanation, I was pissed off about it all more than normal because of the all woes that have befell the Thai rider, see Mike D's post. ) I think we all know a 19 year old Marc isn't out to ruin the world and CS doesn't have the market cornered on safety, but both are good decent people. Anyway, thanks for the exchange buddy.

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Jums, I know you want to let it slide but we may have been to harsh on CS as a report I have heard indicates that a journalist asked him the question 'you have long been an advocate of slow riders not being on the racing line in practice, what is your take of the incident with Maquez'.



If this is the case (the reports I have heard are local) then the CS' statement makes total sense as he agrees that it is a problem but then lays total blame on Marquez (which is as 99% of people see it).



All good anyway mate, we know it has been a hard year









Gaz

Jumkie said:

That's the reaction I had when I first saw it and then realized what happened. You know, you bring up a good point that I had glossed over. Marc is really just a kid (literally) and the adults in his garage should have kept him back with only seconds to go in the session (not sure, but reports have it at 55-40 secs). Its kinda like sending out a pit bull in a frenzy and then hoping it doesn't bite anybody. Then the team has the balls issue a protest. Anyway, I wish they would be a bit more human and issue some kind of an apology. I'm sure the kid feels bad about it, and I hope its not feeling bad about his championship as much as feeling bad about his attempted murder/suicide (or should I say attempted manslaughter/accidental-suicide--as Mike correctly points out is was not deliberate).

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Exactly....I dont know about you Jumks but I was making some pretty stupid decisions at his age (bet you find that hard to believe).



There are some extenuating circumstances which need to be taken into account when penaliisng Marquez for this incident such as his age/experience as well as his previous good record in regards to safety. I think the fact it could cost him a world championship is a pretty big deal and an appropriate reposnse for what was clearly an unintended collision...I would have thought the penalty seemingly fits the crime.



As for his teams protest at the penalty handed down I would think every team in the paddock in a similar position (ie potentially having a world title lost because of the penalty) would do the same thing. If Willariot had have been seriously injured or worse still...killed, they probably would not have lodged the appeal.



This accident was clealry Marquez's fault but if the other two riders had pulled off the racing line as has been suggested (even though it isnt required by the rules that they do so on a slow down lap) he probably would have avoided the collision...the flag had only just come out to signify the end of the session also which complicates matters further.



It was a terrible accident and the team also bears some responsibility for a bad judgement call - fortunately there were no long term injuries sustained by either guy. I hope ALL the riders involved take something away from this and learn from the experience so we dont see this sort of thing happen again. That is best case scenario.

Fair enuf bro. Though i kinda reject idea the riders in question slowing down should hav moved out of way (considering that the standard of safety did exact same thing in FP3). Otherwise we are golden. Move aling, nothing to see here.

Jumkie said:

Interesting, I suppose this is probably discussed during the safety/rider's meeting. At Laguna, its at turn 4 where they conduct practice starts. Where did you read Noyes? Anyway, all good, see previous post.^

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On moto-racing.speedtv.com (the actual article is linked on the rideontwo forum), where noyes discusses the rule and possible penalties pertaining to the incident.



They now apparently have officially designated sections of the track where practice starts are allowed after the flag. I still think I am correct in saying that it was theoretically illegal not all that long ago, so regularising it would seem sensible. The spot is the same place where pedrosa didn't push the appropriate button and did the pawing at the sky routine a couple of seasons ago.



I think stoner just used the chance to get a dig in regarding one of his bete noirs, from pure cussedness. He doesn't give up basically at all when he thinks he is in the right, although thankfully he appears to have given up the on-track behaviour which he thought was justified in defence of his position. He reminds me of the Tom Petty song "I Won't Back Down". I have a good friend who is like that, it does not always lead to constructive outcomes, but I guess is admirable in its way.



That the incident demonstrates that high closing speed is dangerous is very valid of course, just not any implication that wailorot was in any way at fault, particularly if it is known by everyone that this is the spot where practice starts are allowed after the chequered flag. It has been suggested elsewhere that marquez saw one rider and took action to avoid him, but did not see wailorot; we have the extra information from gary that this is something of a blind spot. I guess he was totally focused ( totally stupidly and irresponsibly on both his and his team's behalf) on trying to get the lap in after missing most of the session, and thought he could get around slowing riders to this end.