Márquez handed qualification penalty at Phillip Island

Gaz said:

...where the incident occurred is a 'recognised' blind spot among many Oz racers I know personally. They all have said that through Southern Loop and into Honda they just find that where they look head (as all racers should) they often miss what is immediately ahead in term of on the track itself.



No excuses but is an opinion that I had heard before this incident (and FWIW a similar situation has occurred there in car racing and bikes previously).

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Ok, so its a blind spot. No argument from me my friend.

Gaz said:

On the side of MM's focus, it is practice and surely one must expect the unexpected and for that, I find it hard to absolve him of any blame, although I can understand to a degree.





With regards to the chequer, the earlier post has been refuted in many places and I have earlier today read a comment/article that states that MM received the Chequer 38 seconds after it was first displayed. There also has been no comment attributed to him or his team saying he had not been shown it (know you are not saying this either).

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Well Mr. Squigz is just running with that other dude's report that was "at the track", damn those reports, eh. If the guy that was at the track turns out to be right, then all this if for not and I with a few others will look very silly. But I suspect just Mr. Squigz will look silly.

Gaz said:

As for Stoner, I disagree as it does support his desire (you can call it what you want) for riders not to be slow on the race line at any times and is a classic example of the results that may occur (as are many others over years)

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My dear friend, if you happen to have an account with motogp, go back to FP3 minute 55.33. You will see Stoner slow down after the checkered flag. As he does this you will see another rider haul ... past him on the right. That is, Stoner slows (speed difference) while another rider motors past at a higher rate of speed. This happens because Stoner is slowing down for a practice start. Is it fair to bring this up? Because it seems you guys are bring this up as if this has something to do with Marc's incident. Or are you going to tell me this doesn't compare? To which I would say, yes, and to bring up Stoner's accusation that everybody is in his way during practice to me is something that has nothing to do with this incident. If you concede that the checkered flag was shown then Wilairot was in his right, just as Stoner was in his right to slow down in the picture below. If you say that Wilairot was "dicking around" as Mr Squigz says, then so was Stoner "dicking around" going slow in the picture below. Which is it?



12974:55.33.png]

12975ractice start.png]

Jumkie said:

Mike, according to superbikeplanet states "after both had taken the checkered flag". Motomatters says Marc was sent out "with about a minute" and didn't make the second lap and then collided with the Thai rider in turn 3. That is where Wilairot was slowing down after a "practice start". I'm not sure what isn't clear about "chronology". If this had still been a green flag track then the entire thing is moot, as Marc would have been in the right to be motoring on a hot lap. How you compare this to Stoner's usual whining about people balking a lap is a bit much. I get you are saying there was a speed differential. But in this case there was suppose to be as the session had been closed. Take a look at FP3, at the very end, they follow Stoner as he slows down after he takes the checker flag. You will see a rider pass him rather fast. Was Stoner "dicking" around? Stoner slows down at the same place it seems where the Moto2 guys were taking their practice starts. This is why Stoner is slowing down and in fact, takes a practice start. So by yours and Squigs standard, Stoner was "dicking" around and slowing down after the checkered flag then. I don't understand why you say something about it not being deliberate, what does that have to do with making a grave mistake? And I don't understand why Squigs says he didn't see Wilairot. What is the relevance in that? What if I say, well he didn't see the checkered flag?

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You have caught me on the defence of stoner/stoner fan boy aspect, although i did anticpate such criticism.



I was not saying he had not seen the chequered flag at all, or seeking to defend marquez, losper69 who had watched the whole thing was saying it, and I was asking him or her for further explanation. I do not seek any censure for the victim and potential victim either, but it is still an obvious truth that if anyone rightly or wrongly is going disproportionately fast it is likely to be on the racing line rather than elsewhere.



The Kevin Magee/Bubba Shobert thing was on a post race cool down lap, and blame was attached to Magee more than Shobert, rightly in my view, since doing burn-outs on the racing line is ill advised in any circumstance. They usually do the practice starts wide on the track as well.



I obviously agree that the cool down lap is the circumstance where a rider is likely to think there is no reason to be worried about being on the racing line though. If stoner slowed down markedly on the racing line as you describe in your reply to gaz then he is being inconsistent, and I find it surprising given his comments regarding marquez, but all of his complaints afaik concerned situations in which he had a perfect right to be going flat out and hence the other riders concerned were arguably less entitled to be dawdling on the racing line, not that whether the rider going flat-out has a right to be doing so alters the physics of speed disparity in any case .

michaelm said:

Obviously very careless but far from deliberate so I think the penalty is about appropriate.



Stoner whilst critical of marquez also commented that people should not be on the racing line period, and in the shobert incident most blame was put on magee who was doing burn-outs on the racing line. It has been reported that marquez had no right to be going as fast as he was though; I am not sure I understand the chronology of the incident, are you saying neither marquez or willarot had got the chequered flag? Going flat-out on an outlap with no prospect of a further lap is still ill-advised and unlikely to be anticipated by other riders if this is what he did though.

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That is correct.

Zero comparison here, he was stupid for even leaving the pit with less than a minute left and his team should not have let him, it was plain .........

Jumkie said:

My dear friend, if you happen to have an account with motogp, go back to FP3 minute 55.33. You will see Stoner slow down after the checkered flag. As he does this you will see another rider haul ... past him on the right. That is, Stoner slows (speed difference) while another rider motors past at a higher rate of speed. This happens because Stoner is slowing down for a practice start. Is it fair to bring this up? Because it seems you guys are bring this up as if this has something to do with Marc's incident. Or are you going to tell me this doesn't compare? To which I would say, yes, and to bring up Stoner's accusation that everybody is in his way during practice to me is something that has nothing to do with this incident. If you concede that the checkered flag was shown then Wilairot was in his right, just as Stoner was in his right to slow down in the picture below. If you say that Wilairot was "dicking around" as Mr Squigz says, then so was Stoner "dicking around" going slow in the picture below. Which is it?

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Jums, show me where I say or even insinuate that Willarot was 'dicking around'?



Willarot's only fault in this incident is to have been on the track, wrong place, wrong time, nor more no less, an innocent player/victim.











Gaz

Jumkie said:

Mike, according to superbikeplanet states "after both had taken the checkered flag". Motomatters says Marc was sent out "with about a minute" and didn't make the second lap and then collided with the Thai rider in turn 3. That is where Wilairot was slowing down after a "practice start". I'm not sure what isn't clear about "chronology". If this had still been a green flag track then the entire thing is moot, as Marc would have been in the right to be motoring on a hot lap. How you compare this to Stoner's usual whining about people balking a lap is a bit much. I get you are saying there was a speed differential. But in this case there was suppose to be as the session had been closed. Take a look at FP3, at the very end, they follow Stoner as he slows down after he takes the checker flag. You will see a rider pass him rather fast. Was Stoner "dicking" around? Stoner slows down at the same place it seems where the Moto2 guys were taking their practice starts. This is why Stoner is slowing down and in fact, takes a practice start. So by yours and Squigs standard, Stoner was "dicking" around and slowing down after the checkered flag then. I don't understand why you say something about it not being deliberate, what does that have to do with making a grave mistake? And I don't understand why Squigs says he didn't see Wilairot. What is the relevance in that? What if I say, well he didn't see the checkered flag?

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Speaking of Casey and the others lined up side by side, front and back to do practice starts, did you see Casey and Bautista drag race? That Honda is NASTY, he completely destroyed the Suzuki and he was about 10ft back when he launched.

michaelm said:

I was not saying he had not seen the chequered flag at all, losper69 who had watched the whole thing was saying it, and I was asking him or her for further explanation. I do not seek any censure for the victim and potential victim either, but it is still an obvious truth that if anyone rightly or wrongly is going disproportionately fast it is likely to be on the racing line rather than elsewhere.

l

The Kevin Magee/Bubba Shobert thing was on a post race cool down lap, and blame was attached to Magee more than Shobert, rightly in my view, since doing burn-outs on the racing line is ill advised in any circumstance. They usually do the practice starts wide on the track as well.

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Well buddy, there were bikes on the track and each had two wheels, so therefore it must be correlated to every incident that takes place on a track with motorcycles at different rates of speed? I understand you are taking up Stoner's cross about rider's in his way during practice, and he's had good reason on many occasions, but this force feeding correlation of Marc's incident isn't one of them. As I said above, Stoner slowed down in FP3 after the checker flag, so is he to blame for "dicking around" or more mildly, being unsafe? After all, its people slowing down on a track.



The Magee/Bubba incident, though very painful to remember, is may be a bit more similar, as it happened after the session was closed. But again, Wilairot was slowing down from a practice start, that is the very same damn thing I have pictured above with Stoner. So for you to take up Stoner's cause on this Marc incident doesn't quite hold water, that is unless you are going to call Stoner unsafe in FP3.

Dude, Jumkie is 100% convinced that he can impose his will and get people to change their opinions or stance on any subject to align with his. He has been trying for 6 years to get me to submit to his Jedi mind tricks to no avail.Just have fun with it. If you ever meet the goofy ......, instead of wanting to smack him around, you will give him a big hug.As misguided as he is, he is a likable little .....

Gaz said:

Jums, show me where I say or even insinuate that Willarot was 'dicking around'? Willarot's only fault in this incident is to have been on the track, wrong place, wrong time, nor more no less, an innocent player/victim. Gaz

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I was quoting Squigz, are you reading the thread buddy? As far as "insinuate" well you did make the point, as have Mike & Squigz, that going slow on a track is dangerous. You did say this right: "As for Stoner, I disagree as it does support his desire (you can call it what you want) for riders not to be slow on the race line at any times and is a classic example of the results that may occur (as are many others over years)." Well, I'm replying to you and making the point that this cannot be a blanket statement, as it seems you are also trying to advance Stoner's cross on this subject. To make MY point, I showed you where today, Stoner slows down 'on a track'. Now was it safe? Otherwise why would you make the statement I just quoted above? You are making some kind of correlation to Stoner's "desire" and the incident concerning Wilairot.

povol said:

Dude, Jumkie is 100% convinced that he can impose his will and get people to change their opinions or stance on any subject to align with his. He has been trying for 6 years to get me to submit to his Jedi mind tricks to no avail.Just have fun with it. If you ever meet the goofy ......, instead of wanting to smack him around, you will give him a big hug.As misguided as he is, he is a likable little .....

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Or simply challenge you on yours. You and Squiz may not like it, but if I take you to task and all you got is nothing but frustration, then I'll take it as you concede. haha. Btw, "imposing will"? Hahaha, uhm, newsflash, this is the 'internet' reply at your own will my friend, you're the one behind the keyboard. As if I'm the only one of the opinion that Marc ...... up. And then I'm suppose to be convinced this happened before the flag, because X guy was there? And then its related some how to Stoner's asking people to get out of his way in practice? That's a long stretch, but by all means, swallow it whole. You have been kown to swallow everything on Fox, so I guess you got plenty of room in that mouth. hehe, love Jum.

Jumkie said:

Or simply challenge you on yours. You and Squiz may not like it, but if I take you to task and all you got is nothing but frustration, then I'll take it as you concede. haha. Btw, "imposing will"? Hahaha, uhm, newsflash, this is the 'internet' reply at your own will my friend, you're the one behind the keyboard. As if I'm the only one of the opinion that Marc ...... up. And then I'm suppose to be convinced this happened before the flag, because X guy was there? And then its related some how to Stoner's asking people to get out of his way in practice? That's a long stretch, but by all means, swallow it whole. You have been kown to swallow everything on Fox, so I guess you got plenty of room in that mouth. hehe, love Jum.

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"this is the 'internet'" Exactly my point. Everyone is 10 feet tall and bulletproof on the internet, then you meet them in real life and they are much more placid.

Just watched the Vid of the crash, bit stunned Marquez didn't run wide and into the gravel.



He actually saw him and reacted what looked like way earlier ( sat up a bit and grabbed a handfull of brake ) but then I thought he was going t spook the slower rider and skim past him ........



weird crash !!



I'm almost thinking he did it on purpose but underestimated the consequence



Nor real impressed with Marquez after that, thats for sure.



Given that there was so much room to run off and avoid ........ its pretty ...... up to me

Jumkie said:

I was quoting Squigz, are you reading the thread buddy? As far as "insinuate" well you did make the point, as have Mike & Squigz, that going slow on a track is dangerous. You did say this right: "As for Stoner, I disagree as it does support his desire (you can call it what you want) for riders not to be slow on the race line at any times and is a classic example of the results that may occur (as are many others over years)." Well, I'm replying to you and making the point that this cannot be a blanket statement, as it seems you are also trying to advance Stoner's cross on this subject. To make MY point, I showed you where today, Stoner slows down 'on a track'. Now was it safe? Otherwise why would you make the statement I just quoted above? You are making some kind of correlation to Stoner's "desire" and the incident concerning Wilairot.

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Jums, it is you drawing the connection and bows here.



I say that CS has issues with riders being slow on circuit on the racing line --- which he does (and whether one agrees or disagrees is a moot point).



In the incident that has started this we had Willarot who was NOT on the racing line (the rider on the line was the rider whom MM saw and avoided. The incident wholly, solely and totally occurred because of MM's inattention irrespective of who was where on track, neither of the two front riders changed lines appreciably (if at all).



I do support CS's claims regarding racing lines and have been race meeting and seen what happens when riders do indeed '....' around on the line. I have had to pick up bits of bike as a result. I have had to listen to a riders agonised cries of pain because they were involved in just such incidents as yesterday. I have read articles galore about such incidents resulting in fatalities at local and international meets. So yes, I wholly support CS and his want to get the racing line clear and clean.



Now, if that makes me some fool in your eyes given you 2011 rumblings, then so be it but I will not change my tune as riders slow on racing line is bloody irresponsible, dangerous and an accident waiting to happen.



But.



This was not race line as such due to the session having ended and therein lay a massive difference between CS' point and this incident. CS does complain about the riders during practice when it is expected that riders will be trying to achieve a race pace. I have not heard him complain of such actions at sessions end.



Now, you seem to think that I may be correlating the two and that is your right, but the only incident I have seen where CS did complain about that is close, and I mean even close to this is the RdP incident where the line was changed, but even then that is similar only and not the same as it occurred in a live session.









Gaz

Casey

“That was extremely immature of Marc. I mean he went out with 50 seconds to go. Obviously he was pushing to try and get some feeling in the last lap, but number one, people shouldn’t be just cruising on the racing line.

"But two, Marc should not have been pushing that hard after the chequered flag. I think that was extremely immature"

Rossi

"I think Marc made a mistake because after the flag you need to be slower and with a lot of bikes on the track it can happen. I don't know the speed of Wilairot but from TV it looked like he was at a normal speed and not too slow.”



Casey doesn't make any sense, he comes to a complete stop with riders all around him and him in the center of the track. So if someone was being an ..... where would he have to go? Casey was in a group of 5 riders stopped on the same small piece of track. He needs to shut up again about the racing line or follow his own advice.



Time line

Marquez had already suffered an earlier crash when he returned to the track with less than a minute of the session remaining.

It appeared he saw French rider Valentin Debise at the last moment on the inside at Turn 3 and as he tried to take evasive action he then couldn’t avoid Wilairot.

Race Direction imposed a time penalty of one minute to be added to Marquez’s qualifying time and a statement read: “On Friday 14th October after passing the chequered flag at the end of the first free practice rider Marc Marquez, rode in an irresponsible manner, causing danger to rider Ratthapark Wilairot which is an infringement to the Art 1.21.2 of the 2011 FIM Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix regulations. The Race Direction has decided to impose a time penalty of one minute to be added to the qualification time of Marc Marquez.”

hawkdriver said:

Casey

“That was extremely immature of Marc. I mean he went out with 50 seconds to go. Obviously he was pushing to try and get some feeling in the last lap, but number one, people shouldn’t be just cruising on the line.

"But two, Marc should not have been pushing that hard after the chequered flag. I think that was extremely immature"

Rossi

"I think Marc made a mistake because after the flag you need to be slower and with a lot of bikes on the track it can happen. I don't know the speed of Wilairot but from TV it looked like he was at a normal speed and not too slow.”



Casey doesn't make any sense, he comes to a complete stop with riders all around him and him in the center of the track. So if someone was being an ..... where would he have to go? Casey was in a group of 5 riders stopped on the same small piece of track. He needs to shut up again about the racing line or follow his own advice.



Time line

Marquez had already suffered an earlier crash when he returned to the track with less than a minute of the session remaining.

It appeared he saw French rider Valentin Debise at the last moment on the inside at Turn 3 and as he tried to take evasive action he then couldn’t avoid Wilairot.

Race Direction imposed a time penalty of one minute to be added to Marquez’s qualifying time and a statement read: “On Friday 14th October after passing the chequered flag at the end of the first free practice rider Marc Marquez, rode in an irresponsible manner, causing danger to rider Ratthapark Wilairot which is an infringement to the Art 1.21.2 of the 2011 FIM Road World Championship Grand Prix regulations. The Race Direction has decided to impose a time penalty of one minute to be added to the qualification time of Marc Marquez.”

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I think Stoner is simply in a habit of saying "people shouldn't be going slow on the race line" and then every incident ever on the track must somehow be correlated to support these words, even when they do NOT apply.

Gaz said:

Jums, it is you drawing the connection and bows here.



I say that CS has issues with riders being slow on circuit on the racing line --- which he does (and whether one agrees or disagrees is a moot point).



In the incident that has started this we had Willarot who was NOT on the racing line (the rider on the line was the rider whom MM saw and avoided. The incident wholly, solely and totally occurred because of MM's inattention irrespective of who was where on track, neither of the two front riders changed lines appreciably (if at all).



I do support CS's claims regarding racing lines and have been race meeting and seen what happens when riders do indeed '....' around on the line. I have had to pick up bits of bike as a result. I have had to listen to a riders agonised cries of pain because they were involved in just such incidents as yesterday. I have read articles galore about such incidents resulting in fatalities at local and international meets. So yes, I wholly support CS and his want to get the racing line clear and clean.



Now, if that makes me some fool in your eyes given you 2011 rumblings, then so be it but I will not change my tune as riders slow on racing line is bloody irresponsible, dangerous and an accident waiting to happen.





Gaz

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What Casey says and does regarding safety are two different things and why Jumkie and I critisize him for it. At the end of FP3 Casey and multiple other riders stop all over the track at the exit of a turn and practice their launches. Is it okay for him to stop in almost the middle of the track at the exit of a turn but god forbid a guy going slow during a cool down lap?

Jumkie said:

I think Stoner is simply in a habit of saying "people shouldn't be going slow on the race line" and then every incident ever on the track must somehow be correlated to support these words, even when they do NOT apply.

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Him and his boppers...do they even realize what they're watching and listening to. I don't know why they even brought it up. After the practice launch him and Bautista are clearly on the racing line playing follow the leader and not at race pace.

To get back on topic I think MM got off light.

Gaz said:

Jums, it is you drawing the connection and bows here.



I say that CS has issues with riders being slow on circuit on the racing line --- which he does (and whether one agrees or disagrees is a moot point).

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First of all Gaz (and Mike as well), I admire and respect your opinions, but this doesn't seem to jive (or I'm totally off base here, but reading many other opinions on the subject, I think the Marc/Wilairot incident has zero to do with Stoner's cross that riders should not be slow on a hot track). So my reply: That's weird, you keep bringing up this issue about CS and slow riders in this thread. It almost looks like you did it here again to explain that you are not making any correlations.



If there is NOT CONNECTION then why bring it up in this thread about Marc/Wilairot?!? Should we just randomly bring up points and then say, hey, I wasn't making a connection? Ok, so you say you are not making a correlation to the topic of this thread. Great, so Stoner doesn't like slow riders on the track during a hot session, who the hell does? Only Stoner? Why do you think its relevant to bring up now? Perhaps because you think there is a correlation... oh wait, you already said there is NO correlation.

Gaz said:

In the incident that has started this we had Willarot who was NOT on the racing line (the rider on the line was the rider whom MM saw and avoided. The incident wholly, solely and totally occurred because of MM's inattention irrespective of who was where on track, neither of the two front riders changed lines appreciably (if at all).

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Ok, we have established that.

Gaz said:

I do support CS's claims regarding racing lines and have been race meeting and seen what happens when riders do indeed '....' around on the line. I have had to pick up bits of bike as a result. I have had to listen to a riders agonised cries of pain because they were involved in just such incidents as yesterday. I have read articles galore about such incidents resulting in fatalities at local and international meets. So yes, I wholly support CS and his want to get the racing line clear and clean.

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Again, no ..... I support Casey on this too. I think everybody with a brain supports Casey and every other sane racer in the world that thinks people should not "...." around on the race line. Is this news? Why is it relevant to stay this here? Is it correlated to Marc/Wilairot? Oh, of course not, you already said its not correlated. (I say that lovingly) WHY MENTION IT ON THIS THREAD?

Gaz said:

Now, if that makes me some fool in your eyes given you 2011 rumblings, then so be it but I will not change my tune as riders slow on racing line is bloody irresponsible, dangerous and an accident waiting to happen.

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Appealing to emotion here? Or can I use one of your lines "please show me where I said or insinuated you are a "fool"?

Gaz said:

But.



This was not race line as such due to the session having ended and therein lay a massive difference between CS' point and this incident. CS does complain about the riders during practice when it is expected that riders will be trying to achieve a race pace. I have not heard him complain of such actions at sessions end.

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The highlight part has been MY point! That's what I AM arguing! That the two incidents are not related in the least. Just because its happened on a track with motorcycles doesn't mean every incident known to man is correlated. Hence why I'm challenging this notion that it has something to do with Stoner's insistence that riders not be slow on the track, or as you claim, are not "drawing any connection or bow". Again my question, then why bring it up in this thread?

Gaz said:

Now, you seem to think that I may be correlating the two and that is your right, but the only incident I have seen where CS did complain about that is close, and I mean even close to this is the RdP incident where the line was changed, but even then that is similar only and not the same as it occurred in a live session.

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Ok, you are not correlating it. I believe you.... But you are very confusing because I keep reading you bring up Stoner's displeasure of slow riders who may cause accidents on a track with this incident where Marc crashed into Wiloairot. But OK, I'll just ignore the multiple parts in your posts that mention this...as you say you are NOT making any kind of correlation.

hawkdriver said:

Him and his boppers...do they even realize what they're watching and listening to. I don't know why they even brought it up. After the practice launch him and Bautista are clearly on the racing line playing follow the leader and not at race pace.

To get back on topic I think MM got off light.

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Well honestly, I don't consider these guys (Gaz & Mike) bops/bones, though Mr. Squigz is increasing sounding like one...sadly. My only argument on this was Marc got off light. Somehow the debate became about Stoner pointing out how its dangerous to be slow on a track, which I agree but has .... all to do with this incident (though as you and I point out, he did it today). I don't think there was any reason to bring it up in the case of Marc/Wilairot, unless we are just bringing up things that have to do with machines that have two wheels and race. Then in that case everything is fair game. But I believe its a bit misleading to compare Stoner's plight (which I agree, is a good concern) with this incident. Either its always wrong to go slow after the checkered flag because the track is still hot, or its not. These boys know I admire Stoner's riding and to a degree, his straight talk (I have countless posts where I say as much). I take issue with making a correlation with what Stoner says because this incorrectly insinuates that Wilairot was at fault. By these boys brining up Stoner's displeasure with slow riders in this thread leads to believe that all slow riders are created equal, hence Wilairot must have been "dicking" around (as Mr. Squigz describes it).

Jumkie said:

I think Stoner is simply in a habit of saying "people shouldn't be going slow on the race line" and then every incident ever on the track must somehow be correlated to support these words, even when they do NOT apply.

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You are correct that what stoner says or has done has nothing to do with whether marquez was at fault in this incident for which he has been justly penalised in my view.



Stoner says that going slow on the racing line is dangerous, period, and I agree with him. I previously cited the shobert /magee incident in this context as an example that such incidents were not always non-trivial and you agreed with me, although this was before you were (rightly) pissed off by his behaviour in the incident with nicky. It is speed disparity though which creates the problem, and that is very much more likely to occur on the racing line, independent of the motivation or justification of the riders concerned.



If stoner behaved as you say he did this makes him inconsistent and hypocritical (particularly in view of the comment he made about the marquez incident), an occasional occurrence even with such paragons of logical consistency as you and me, rather than wrong. I have a feeling practice starts are not strictly legal anyway, but was he personally doing practice starts on the racing line?.

I like ham