Lorenzos Dad - Simoncelli Comments

Kropotkin said:

To me, this is not about Simoncelli, it is about treating dead people the same way you treat living people: with the honesty and respect that they deserve. Producing a distorted version of them, in my opinion, and I am aware that I am virtually alone in this, does more harm to their memory and legacy than they deserve.

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With all due respect; I'm a bit curious, how do you suppose you are "alone" on this? Sure some eulogies are a bit over the top, but for the most part, there has been a simple outpouring of emotion. You can point to the few that liken the man to suddenly a sainthood in death, but for the most part what I've seen and read is honest and more to the point, accurate. You are NOT alone in this regard simply because your response has been more absent of emotional eulogy expressed in words on the forum or even on your site (as you even stated). You are not as unique in this as you may think or purport, as most are and should be well aware that Marco Simoncelli pushed the limit, and sometimes a bit beyond. But again, I'm not going around saying the guy killed himself and put others in harms way. And certainly, there is a place and time for everything. Again, I don't think Lorenzo's dad was out of line, if anything, the dude's printing and jumping to conclusions to sensationalize a one-two liners are the wrong ones here.

Kropotkin said:

I agree that there is a time and place. Labelling Simoncelli's riding at his funeral is definitely the wrong place. I suspect that what we disagree on is the amount of time that should pass. I realize that I am at an extreme end of the spectrum.

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Well, when you got the news that Sic died, was the first thought you had, 'I wonder who will now take over his seat at Gresini?' That is extreme! Yes, its a question that comes as a result of the event, but there is a small normal grace period. I'm sure this wasn't your thought, despite claiming you are extreme in this regard, otherwise the extremeness you claim may be confused with rather a lack of humanity. At some point I expect to read you addressing this question, but I wouldn't expect it yesterday or tomorrow. And of course, given your profession, you will have to explore these kinds of question sooner than you might want to (assuming the humanity thingy above), but I think we can agree, people were not pondering this yesterday at the funeral.



Again, after reading Lorenzo's dad column, I think it was within acceptable commentary regarding the incident, though it did toy with the limit of the grace period I speak of above (exceptions of course for Hitler, etc). The 'Two Wheel Blog' ...... who sensationalized it with the title:



Jorge Lorenzo hits out at his father against inappropriate comment



, is the real ......., and us for not calling it out immediately for what it was. Now it will certainly get lost in translation, and Lorenzo's tweet, though it forced his hand, will not make matters better. I remember you had a scathing assessment about journalist, given this guy's ability to make something out of nothing, you were right.

I am not offended if someone brings up this kind of arguments on the day (or the week, or the month) of Simoncelli's funeral. I said these argumentations were wrong before, and I say they are wrong now.



Simoncelli was a 'physical' kind of rider. He didn't have a choice: he was very tall and heavy for a rider, 20cms taller and 25 kilos heavier than the average of other riders. In 125 he didn't have a chance; in 250 it was a bit better, and he learned that he could use his weight to his advantage when fighting shoulder to shoulder with others.



So he "had to" adopt a style of sheer physical bravery to be competitive. Because of his size and weight he stressed tires more, and he used more fuel than others; so he was obliged to start a race with harder tires than others, and hope they would not let him down in the first laps.



Superficial observers thought he was careless, or crazy, but he wasn't. He was racing in the only way a man of his size can be competitive in todays' races. And he was brave and fast. He crashed, but there were others who crashed as much as him; he was tough in his track fights, but not more than several others. Barbera is a notable example, Lorenzo in his early days was another. Did Sic make more mistakes than them? Nope.



Those who labeled Sic as a dangerous racer were just trying to neutralize a potential top runner with political means. Now it is no more necessary, so Lorenzo's hyper-protective dad can relax.

It seems a shame that this quote seems to have been taen out of context and used to generate controversial headlines. But if what people are relaying here is correct then it seems his comments where not unreasonable. I agree with Krop about remaining honest about people who have passed on and not glossing over negatives. Respect for the dead should keep certain topics from being discussed too close to the events that have peoples emotions running so high, but in this particular context it seems Lorenzo's dad was asked specifically about this subject. Shying away from the sensitive issues can easily lead to them being overlooked and complacency setting in, in which case nobody wins.



In terms of the dangers of racing in close proximity, I think it's extremely difficult. Any ruling on what is and isn't acceptable will ultimately be up to the discretion of someone (i.e. race direction) so regulating it more strictly can lead to a situation like F1 where penalties are common and consistency is debatable, ultimately it is a negative for the sport overall. The trouble is that in modern racing the competition is greater than the sport, so people are increasingly willing to go to more extreme lengths and take larger risks to win. It is a matter of culture, with the riders at the top of the sport setting an example for generations to come. Ideally the riders should be able to be trusted as much as possible to decide what is and isn't acceptable and make the right decision, with little need for external intervention. I think the riders need to be united, they need compulsary meetings at every race (like in F1) and they need to be open with each other about how they feel, it is their lives on the line. I may be a bit idealistic but perhaps if this were the case then the riders could almost be self regulating, all behind closed doors and away from the media.



From a technical standpoint I also think that a tyre that heats up quicker and loses traction more gradually would do some good, as would lighter bikes which would be easier to regain control of with less inertia.

J4rn0 said:

I am not offended if someone brings up this kind of arguments on the day (or the week, or the month) of Simoncelli's funeral. I said these argumentations were wrong before, and I say they are wrong now.



Simoncelli was a 'physical' kind of rider. He didn't have a choice: he was very tall and heavy for a rider, 20cms taller and 25 kilos heavier than the average of other riders. In 125 he didn't have a chance; in 250 it was a bit better, and he learned that he could use his weight to his advantage when fighting shoulder to shoulder with others.



So he "had to" adopt a style of sheer physical bravery to be competitive. Because of his size and weight he stressed tires more, and he used more fuel than others; so he was obliged to start a race with harder tires than others, and hope they would not let him down in the first laps.



Superficial observers thought he was careless, or crazy, but he wasn't. He was racing in the only way a man of his size can be competitive in nowadays' races. And he was brave and fast. He crashed, but there were others who crashed as much as him; he was tough in his track fights, but not more than several others. Barbera is a notable example, Lorenzo in his early days was another.



Those who labeled Sic as a dangerous racer were just trying to neutralize a potential top runner with political means. Now it is no more necessary, so Lorenzo's hyper-protective dad can relax.

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J4rno, you were developing an excellent counter explanation to Sic's style of racing, until your last two sentences. I agree that Sic had to employ a different style and perhaps he did it consciously as you say, but it did cause some problems to himself and other riders. In what way would you suggest this be pointed out honorably? There may be a bit of merit to your accusation that it was a political vehicle, but I disagree that this was the intent. I'm not gonna even address your labeling of Lorenzo's dad, just that I disagree with that part of your assessment wholeheartedly.

Jumkie said:

J4rno, you were developing an excellent counter explanation to Sic's style of racing, until your last two sentences. I agree that Sic had to employ a different style and perhaps he did it consciously as you say, but it did cause some problems to himself and other riders. In what way would you suggest this be pointed out honorably?

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Lots of riders crash especially when they are relatively inexperienced, and Marco was learning and getting much more controlled. Racing in a close pack there is always the risk of riders getting collected if one guy crashes, and nobody wants to crash in any situation let alone that one. Iannone is another big guy with a similar style to Rossi and Simoncelli, he is strong on the bike and if he can get inside someone he will. But watching a moto2 race i am always far more nervous watching Marquez go up someones inside with the bike skitting around beneath him than i am when Crazy Joe plants it, because the smaller guy always looks like the bike could snap itself out of his control at any moment. I felt the same watching Simoncelli and Pedrosa battle in motogp. For reference see events that took place at the same corner of the Estoril circuit with both of the Spaniards i've just mentioned and you'll see what I mean.



For me the only time (within reason) I take issue with peoples riding is when they make moves on people who can do nothing to avoid it. Going strong on someones inside might be harsh, but as long as they have the option to run on and stay out the way it is relatively safe, but squeezing them to the edge of the track or just t-boning them completely isn't on, because they can do nothing about it.

i just like to add, thanks to those helping with translations of the article

“Simoncelli wasn’t mentally prepared to race. To race at these levels you also have to train mentally. And he crashed in a similar manner several times before.”



If that is a quote verbatim, he was out of line leading up to the funeral. Doesnt matter what the context. Did he say that, or was he misquoted. If he says he was misquoted, im sure there is a transcript. If thats what you feel, no problem, but it could be addressed after emotions had calmed a bit. Obviously Jorge was embarrassed by it, and im assuming he asked his father point blank if that is what he said before apologizing for him.

povol said:

“Simoncelli wasn’t mentally prepared to race. To race at these levels you also have to train mentally. And he crashed in a similar manner several times before.”



If that is a quote verbatim, he was out of line leading up to the funeral. Doesnt matter what the context. Did he say that, or was he misquoted. If he says he was misquoted, im sure there is a transcript. If thats what you feel, no problem, but it could be addressed after emotions had calmed a bit. Obviously Jorge was embarrassed by it, and im assuming he asked his father point blank if that is what he said before apologizing for him.

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Context does matter. You've said so in the past when debating. Anyway, here is another quote of his that is interesting.





"I have a good relationship with his [Marco’s] father Paolo because we have so often seen each other in the paddocks, and that increases the pain I feel right now. I wish I could do something to comfort him, but I know that's impossible right now. Unfortunately I know perfectly well the level of suffering a family goes through that sees his son putting their lives on the line aboard a bike." Chicho Lorenzo



Btw, I've been reading several links on the incident in Spanish, I have yet to find the sentences you quoted above verbatim. But then again, I'm translating it in my mind as I'm reading it, so there may be a slightly different meaning for me.

Jumkie said:

J4rno, you were developing an excellent counter explanation to Sic's style of racing, until your last two sentences. I agree that Sic had to employ a different style and perhaps he did it consciously as you say, but it did cause some problems to himself and other riders. In what way would you suggest this be pointed out honorably? There may be a bit of merit to your accusation that it was a political vehicle, but I disagree that this was the intent. I'm not gonna even address your labeling of Lorenzo's dad, just that I disagree with that part of your assessment wholeheartedly.

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We have agreed to disagree before, no harm in doing the same one more time. I really do not feel like entering into a debate about Simoncelli's riding now, I just wanted to point out some facts that maybe were overlooked by many. Make of them whatever you deem best.



I will add a note about Lorenzo's father comments: he stressed that Sic crashed repeatedly in a similar way, as a demonstration of his point that he wasn't mentally fit for MotoGP. That's ironic because he didn't realize there has been at least another rider in recent years, who also crashed repeatedly in the same way, during his apprenticeship in MotoGP: Jorge Lorenzo.

Has anyone noticed that most of the great riders of today, all at one time were labeled crashers.



Rossi, Stoner, Pedro, Lorenzo. The four aliens are great because they find the limit, and you can unfortunately only find the limit one way.

J4rn0 said:

We have agreed to disagree before, no harm in doing the same one more time. I really do not feel like entering into a debate about Simoncelli's riding now, I just wanted to point out some facts that maybe were overlooked by many. Make of them whatever you deem best.



I will add a note about Lorenzo's father comments: he stressed that Sic crashed repeatedly in a similar way, as a demonstration of his point that he wasn't mentally fit for MotoGP. That's ironic because he didn't realize there has been at least another rider in recent years, who also crashed repeatedly in the same way, during his apprenticeship in MotoGP: Jorge Lorenzo.

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Fair enough J4rno. Like I said, you make some great points, just his characterizations was perhaps the only point I disagreed. But regardless, I agree that its a difficult and complicated issue to discuss, and certainly for the moment.

Jumkie said:

Context does matter. You've said so in the past when debating. Anyway, here is another quote of his that is interesting.





"I have a good relationship with his [Marco’s] father Paolo because we have so often seen each other in the paddocks, and that increases the pain I feel right now. I wish I could do something to comfort him, but I know that's impossible right now. Unfortunately I know perfectly well the level of suffering a family goes through that sees his son putting their lives on the line aboard a bike." Chicho Lorenzo



Btw, I've been reading several links on the incident in Spanish, I have yet to find the sentences you quoted above verbatim. But then again, I'm translating it in my mind as I'm reading it, so there may be a slightly different meaning for me.

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Like i said, if the quote was verbatim, papa Lorenzo is in crayfish mode now that his own son has called him an insensitive prick.

povol said:

Has anyone noticed that most of the great riders of today, all at one time were labeled crashers. Rossi, Stoner, Pedro, Lorenzo. The four aliens are great because they find the limit, and you can unfortunately only find the limit one way.

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I don't think Rossi and Pedro were ever labeled crashers in the premier class. Pedro's crashes have resulted in injury, but the sheer number isn't what people notice with him but rather that he gets seriously hurt. I think its safe to say, many of Stoner's crashes were due to a critical bike with Ducati, and year one perhaps being a rookie. Lorenzo's first year was similar, but then didn't crash hardly every in a race after that. But as you suggest, Sic may have needed just a bit more time to get his head around the new class, after all, it was just his second year.

Too much mountain out of a molehill going on here by the fans and those that feed them. The whole lot. Assessments of riders flaws,assets, is a constant ongoing thing in racing amongst the competitors. In Lorenzo's dads case what he has written is not about hate its about "if only" so its a good thing, day of the funeral or whatever.



Lorenzo's dad is very right about the "licensing thing", many of these guys have not come through a graded system of learning to ride at all. Money has got them there. Is it safe?



As I've said before, the riders "feeling guilty about past comments to Simoncelli" is a nonsense, many of them could be feeling "did i say enough to him" right about now.



Sadly it appears that PC sensibilities about "the show" and "the fans" and "the money" may have marred valuable discussion of the safety around Marcos riding.



Sadly Marco has paid the ultimate price ........ and absolutely nobody wanted that, nor do they want it in the future, Lorenzo's dad is in a great position to put into action things that may prevent future such occurrences, and he is just doing that. Good on him.

Jumkie said:

But as you suggest, Sic may have needed just a bit more time to get his head around the new class, after all, it was just his second year.

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Marco crashed for 2 years solid in 250 and then it clicked and he was difficult to stop

I think Jorge said all that needed to be said, it could have happened to any of them. I haven't been able to watch every race and practice session but I do believe every single full time rider on the grid has lost the front at some point this year. If we listen to the interviews that go on after a practice or race it seems they lose the front and are able to save it almost every race weekend.

So are none of them qualified to be on the track because they all ride on the limit? The comments were in poor taste, this was a freak and unfortunate occurrence.

Kropotkin said:

To me, this is not about Simoncelli, it is about treating dead people the same way you treat living people: with the honesty and respect that they deserve. Producing a distorted version of them, in my opinion, and I am aware that I am virtually alone in this, does more harm to their memory and legacy than they deserve.

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You are not alone and you have bigger balls than me! I have refrained from posting much after Marco's crash because I have felt that much of what I have been thinking would be interpreted as callous or insensitive and I have seen no real reason to upset the grieving process which people are going through. I will say that I believe that no one gets instant saint-hood by passing away.

hawkdriver said:

this was a freak and unfortunate occurrence.

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Absolutely, the outcome was freakish, not (by the sound of things) the lose itself, which was similar to those experienced by a significant proportion of riders each week-end.



I agreed with kropotkin that marco's judgement could perhaps be questioned in view of the frequency of his crashes earlier in the season, but none of them individually including the pedrosa incident was particularly outrageous imo. He also had just ridden a beautifully judged race in very difficult conditions at PI.



Jorge's father may have a point in general about riders on their way up, and certainly there are levels of licensing required for various forms of car racing including F1. I don't see how it applies to marco though, since if winning a 250 world championship doesn't qualify you to ride motogp I am not sure what would, and he was far past the point of bought rides etc.



His point about the weights and topspeeds of the bikes is well made, although already made previously on here by lex.



In general he does not really deserve criticism, it is in all probability his fear for his own also doubtlessly much loved son speaking.

I have read so many comments from fans and journalists that Sic was a future WC and star of the show. To be honest i would have been prepared to bet (which I never do) that he would never have won a MotoGP WC. I would have placed this bet because I do not believe he had the mental capacity to do it. Sure he was fast but he was also not very intelligent by all accounts. To win MotoGP titles you need to be fast and intelligent. This is highlight by Rossi's success, Lorenzo's WC last year and Stoner's this year and in 2007. It is my opinion that the WC is the rider most mentally on it that year. To me Sic was like a Commodore 64 trying to out compute the latest high spec gaming desk top. It ain't never gonna happen.