Leave or Stay?

DRILL said:

Most stupid thread of the year. Who the .... are you people to nominate who goes and stays?

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It's not serious. When I started it, I thought that the response would be exactly what it has been and Jumkie would be called out for the ultimatum which for some readers, he probably sounded genuine. Talpa to his credit has said that if he has given his word, he would go. If I was Jumkie, I wouldn't find any evidence.



Talpa - I wasn't comparing you to Supershit and Stinky either.

The forum survives on differences of opinion and controversy. Look at what causes the longest threads.

Think how boring this place would be if everyone agreed with Jumkie. I certainly don't.

DRILL said:

Most stupid thread of the year. Who the .... are you people to nominate who goes and stays?

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+1

No one is above Rossi fans..lol

Sorry had to do it...

but seriously this is a stupid thread... can we all just get along...



The real thread should be about Barry and the smileys..lol... Can he go a week without using them? Tis the question..

j/k.

michaelm said:

I don't think either of you should leave.



I do think you are on a loser in your contention though. Not only have I no recollection of jumkie saying what you claim, and I have a fairly good memory, but surely even you must acknowledge that he is a keen and well informed follower of the sport, and he would not make this argument because michelin's policy with the overnight specials was so well known. He or others may have argued that whilst others got overnight specials the tyres were made to rossi's specifications in particular; I don't know whether this is true but it is probably not unreasonable speculation as the cost of the overnight specials was such as to preclude michelin continuing with them, and making them in multiple specifications each week-end would presumably have been even more costly. I do recall some speculation in the motogp press in 2007 that part of rossi's disaffection with michelin was because they had started to develop more for pedrosa/hrc than him, but that was after the end of saturday specials.

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on such a serious matter, surely you would accurately read both sides of the argument. Clearly you have not, my contention is that all of a sudden, when Kropo backed it up, Michelin Supplied several riders, and the other riders had to pay for them, which I've never read jum post, we are waiting for the evidence because it clearly states that this advantage was not unfair.



Now your saying that they were made to Rossi's specs, with no proof to back this up.

Clearly you feel that jum is a well informed follower of the sport who posts without bias, who just happens to agree with your pov. Whilst I'm just dismissed as a Rossi bopper with no idea.



This is the problem here, I never issued the ultimatum but am happy to put it on the line for my argument, because with this constant beratement of rossi achievements eventually one of the acusers has to come up with the proof, I have been asking for this which is not unreasonable and all I get as above is heresay and conjucture,then labelled as a clown by the ones I'm making the requests of.



I'm willing to see this through.

Talpa said:

, because with this constant beratement of rossi achievements eventually one of the acusers has to come up with the proof, I have been asking for this which is not unreasonable and all I get as above is heresay and conjucture,then labelled as a clown by the ones I'm making the requests of.



I'm willing to see this through.

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Welcome to the rossi fan club mate. If we wear yellow where just screaming school girl groupies that know nothing about racing and our opinions are always bias. Sometime you have to use the technique i use with the misses. "why should i be bothered to try to convince you when i know im right". "Your ignorance is not my problem"

Wear your yellow and be proud matey

Talpa said:

on such a serious matter, surely you would accurately read both sides of the argument. Clearly you have not, my contention is that all of a sudden, when Kropo backed it up, Michelin Supplied several riders, and the other riders had to pay for them, which I've never read jum post, we are waiting for the evidence because it clearly states that this advantage was not unfair.



Now your saying that they were made to Rossi's specs, with no proof to back this up.

Clearly you feel that jum is a well informed follower of the sport who posts without bias, who just happens to agree with your pov. Whilst I'm just dismissed as a Rossi bopper with no idea.



This is the problem here, I never issued the ultimatum but am happy to put it on the line for my argument, because with this constant beratement of rossi achievements eventually one of the acusers has to come up with the proof, I have been asking for this which is not unreasonable and all I get as above is heresay and conjucture,then labelled as a clown by the ones I'm making the requests of.



I'm willing to see this through.

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As I have said before although I often disagree with you there is no doubt that you are a genuine and passionate follower of the sport and we need such people on the forum, and as others have said if everyone agreed there would be little point to the forum.



I think we need to differentiate between what people would like things to be and what they are, and imo you do sometimes seem to argue against what you would like people to have said rather than what they have said, which may be jumkie's point. I am still not clear exactly what is in dispute even after reading your post to which I am currently replying.



In any case my point was not that jumkie is unbiased or correct (whether or not I agree with him), but rather that I personally don't recall him making any untrue statement about the overnight specials, and that whether he is biased or not using something incorrect which is universally known to be so is unlikely to win any arguments, and he likes winning arguments .



My second point was that I did have some recollection of a recent post where it was claimed that whilst others also were supplied with saturday night specials the development of these tyres was focused on rossi, again my point being that someone had said this rather than whether it was true. My next point concerning whether such speculation is valid is where my bias may come in, but I did make it fairly clear this was an opinion. I still think this is possible; certainly I think bridgestone development was focused on ducati more than the other teams they supplied up to and including 2007.



As to who paid for saturday night specials I don't know. I think michelin may have charged some teams for tyre supply and not others, but as an opinion I would consider it extremely unlikely that rossi got his saturday night specials for free whilst his yamaha team-mate or the hrc riders had to pay.

Talpa said:

This is the problem here, I never issued the ultimatum but am happy to put it on the line for my argument, because with this constant beratement of rossi achievements eventually one of the acusers has to come up with the proof, I have been asking for this which is not unreasonable and all I get as above is heresay and conjucture,then labelled as a clown by the ones I'm making the requests of.



I'm willing to see this through.

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Just because Rossi had unfair advantages doesn't mean he isn't the best rider of the last decade, and arguably of any era. Agostini had everything going his way, but few doubt his achievements. Racing is about as fair as life, it's just that racers tend to be slightly more honest about their motivation than ordinary humans.

Well,



Here's an unfair advantage Fiat Yamaha and Tech3 Yamaha had this year (and maybe past years).



When talking with one of Spies's mechanics at Tech3, I mentioned that Pramac Ducati has exceeded their "Crash" parts budget by a mile and set a new record in 2010, He told me that both Yamaha teams do not pay for any parts, it is supplied for free. They have no budget for it.

So Yamahas can crash as many times as possible and all replacement parts do not cost the team a penny (tech3 or fiat hamaha)



Now that's unfair

Sorry Talps - it was too easy, glaringly obvious and too hard to resist......



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4JKdf2int0[/media]

shovelhead said:

Well,



Here's an unfair advantage Fiat Yamaha and Tech3 Yamaha had this year (and maybe past years).



When talking with one of Spies's mechanics at Tech3, I mentioned that Pramac Ducati has exceeded their "Crash" parts budget by a mile and set a new record in 2010, He told me that both Yamaha teams do not pay for any parts, it is supplied for free. They have no budget for it.

So Yamahas can crash as many times as possible and all replacement parts do not cost the team a penny (tech3 or fiat hamaha)



Now that's unfair

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Maybe it's because the Ducati's are expected to crash more often so the factory is not willing to pay for it...

No member can decide about another member, logically we cant decide for Talpa to leave, though for me he is more than well come here.

Their bet with Jumkie is a winter discussion between them, and we'r invited to laugh with them.



I think Jumkie has mentioned special overnight tires were also available for a few others which (were Rossi's main competition), though he doesn't mention it as often as he uses the "special overnights" to support his arguments against Rossi, while he keeps the answer in his pocket.

If his main competition recieved the overnight tires, then we can't name this Unfair advantage, even if it suited Rossi better.

rossiofsky said:

No member can decide about another member, logically we cant decide for Talpa to leave, though for me he is more than well come here.

Their bet with Jumkie is a winter discussion between them, and we'r invited to laugh with them.



I think Jumkie has mentioned special overnight tires were also available for a few others which (were Rossi's main competition), though he doesn't mention it as often as he uses the "special overnights" to support his arguments against Rossi, while he keeps the answer in his pocket.

If his main competition recieved the overnight tires, then we can't name this Unfair advantage, even if it suited Rossi better.

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They will argue that all overnight specials were designed around rossi. How the .... they know this is a mystery. I always thought they were made individually to the buying/receiving teams data for that track at that given time.

woody996 said:

It's not serious. When I started it, I thought that the response would be exactly what it has been and Jumkie would be called out for the ultimatum which for some readers, he probably sounded genuine. Talpa to his credit has said that if he has given his word, he would go. If I was Jumkie, I wouldn't find any evidence.



Talpa - I wasn't comparing you to Supershit and Stinky either.

The forum survives on differences of opinion and controversy. Look at what causes the longest threads.

Think how boring this place would be if everyone agreed with Jumkie. I certainly don't.

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Try putting yu brain to something constructive for the forum.................not this ......

chopperman said:

They will argue that all overnight specials were designed around rossi. How the .... they know this is a mystery. I always thought they were made individually to the buying/receiving teams data for that track at that given time.

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Rog, that is/was/has been my understanding of the SNS situation since year dot.



The tyres were made to the requirements of each individual rider (and their individual team) that was in a position to receive the said tyres, be that a purchase arrangement or via their respective position within the political sphere of the sport. Personally I do not see how VR can be 'blamed' here as SNS existed long before he hit the race scene (maybe even when he was but a mere twinkle within the eye of Grziano himself).



As an aside, I do not see (well read actually) any respected member accusing the tyres of being VR only but interpretations are different from one of us biased bodies to the next I suppose.



I say bring back the cheng shin race tyres and get on with it















Gaz

chopperman said:

They will argue that all overnight specials were designed around rossi. How the .... they know this is a mystery. I always thought they were made individually to the buying/receiving teams data for that track at that given time.

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No-one can know this except for michelin as someone said earlier in the thread, maybe not even rossi. I don't think anyone including jumkie has claimed any of rossi's titles were due to the saturday night special tyres ; rossi's serious rivals all had them too, although the possibility that catch 22 applied and you needed to have the tyres to be a serious rival exists imo.



I don't think it is totally unreasonable to suggest that a tyre manufacturer might develop in a direction that suits one rider or bike more than another though; I seem to recall suggestions that michelin were developing for pedrosa more than rossi in 2007, that bridgestone made no pretence that ducati were not their priority up to and including 2007, and that ducati were prepared to go with michelin going forward from 2007 despite them apparently being so hopeless. I also actually agree with j4rno that the current bridgestone tyres suit lorenzo more than rossi, whether or not by design, and that applies to stoner as well which he did not say, and this is not surprising since it has frequently been said in reports neutral to the topic of advantage that both had extreme tyre preferences.



To return to an old and now irrelevant fight, except for it being the genesis of the topic of advantage from my point of view, I do recall large volumes of posts about stoner having an advantage in 2007, with many of those arguing citing his lack of success previously including 2006 ; however surely it is beyond dispute that rossi had a tyre advantage over stoner in 2006



Btw I actually don't have a problem with riders or teams developing an advantage; as you rightly said recently that's prototype racing. It is certainly my hope that hrc will give stoner an engine /bike advantage next year .

[96' post='260942']

Personally I do not see how VR can be 'blamed' here as SNS existed long before he hit the race scene (maybe even when he was but a mere twinkle within the eye of Grziano himself).

Gaz

[/quote]

Absolutely.

michaelm said:

No-one can know this except for michelin as someone said earlier in the thread, maybe not even rossi. I don't think anyone including jumkie has claimed any of rossi's titles were due to the saturday night special tyres ; rossi's serious rivals all had them too, although the possibility that catch 22 applied and you needed to have the tyres to be a serious rival exists imo.



I don't think it is totally unreasonable to suggest that a tyre manufacturer might develop in a direction that suits one rider or bike more than another though; I seem to recall suggestions that michelin were developing for pedrosa more than rossi in 2007, that bridgestone made no pretence that ducati were not their priority up to and including 2007, and that ducati were prepared to go with michelin going forward from 2007 despite them apparently being so hopeless. I also actually agree with j4rno that the current bridgestone tyres suit lorenzo more than rossi, whether or not by design, and that applies to stoner as well which he did not say, and this is not surprising since it has frequently been said in reports neutral to the topic of advantage that both had extreme tyre preferences.



To return to an old and now irrelevant fight, except for it being the genesis of the topic of advantage from my point of view, I do recall large volumes of posts about stoner having an advantage in 2007, with many of those arguing citing his lack of success previously including 2006 ; however surely it is beyond dispute that rossi had a tyre advantage over stoner in 2006

Btw I actually don't have a problem with riders or teams developing an advantage; as you rightly said recently that's prototype racing. It is certainly my hope that hrc will give stoner an engine /bike advantage next year

.

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I remember Ducati saying they may go with Michelin but i remember that more as ducati throwing their toys out of the pram when rossi was granted a bridgstone contract. They did not want their main competitor on the same rubber as they felt they could not develop a bike to be advantageous that way, It would appear they were right given there later results. Ducati were pro tyre wars as was i but the single tyre rule stopped any defection or protest.

DRILL said:

Try putting yu brain to something constructive for the forum.................not this ......

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Yes sir. How high should I jump?

woody996 said:

Yes sir. How high should I jump?

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Woody or should I say Plank, I say you should find a nice tall tower block and jump off it! As you are obviously another ozzy toser!



You run the risk of being added to the Pinky & SS list, if I were you, I'd be bending over to apologise to Talpa and Drill and the rest of us who are appauled at you for starting such a thread in the first place.

bonnielass said:

Woody or should I say Plank, I say you should find a nice tall tower block and jump off it! As you are obviously another ozzy toser!



You run the risk of being added to the Pinky & SS list, if I were you, I'd be bending over to apologise to Talpa and Drill and the rest of us who are appauled at you for starting such a thread in the first place.

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It's not really Woody's fault and shouldn't really cop this, Jumkie is the one who is asking other members to leave the forum, Woody has just highlighted it, as we've seen Jum really wants it to go away, but its there for all to see in the other thread.



So yes this thread is important, as it highlights the appalling behavior of some members when they lose arguments, I'm still waiting for the evidence, and am still prepared to go.

Talpa said:

It's not really Woody's fault and shouldn't really cop this, Jumkie is the one who is asking other members to leave the forum, Woody has just highlighted it, as we've seen Jum really wants it to go away, but its there for all to see in the other thread.



So yes this thread is important, as it highlights the appalling behavior of some members when they lose arguments, I'm still waiting for the evidence, and am still prepared to go.

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Point taken but 1. i don't think this needed a separate thread as it would have been better placed and more in context if it were posted in the thread where you were asked to leave? and 2. as far as i can see woody had .... all to do with that debate so bringing it up here is either .... stirring or an error of judgment imo. Anyway im sure your nether offended nor worried you will have to go as there's no way jum can prove rossi's achievements were purely down to unfair advantages. Best just to let each other off the hook and start a new fight