Krop reporting Indy may be back on the calendar

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#22 said:
Shize....looks like 2017 for me for race atendance then.
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I as well.. All ready starting to plan a trip overseas in 2017 to take in a race. Still trying to determine which race and location. Figure wife is going with, so there is more factors to consider than just the race.

Still sucks.. Indy was handy being only 4 hours away.

Oh well.. Might get to try some Spanish Wine...
 
WVMotoGP99 said:
Well piss.. Looks like Indy is dead after all..

MotoGP extends contract with Brno to 2020
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Good.

Honestly I don't know what the infatuation is with Indy.

It's a .... track for MotoGP no matter how you look at it. It means Dorna is no longer extorting the taxpayers of Indiana to get this race.

I'm in a distinct minority here, but for as much as I like racing, I do not want F1 or MotoGP in the USA period unless the financial terms make sense. Giving how every state and city continues getting ...... in the ... by the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, etc. why people continue thinking it's okay to give into the financial demands of these sporting entities is beyond me.

For example, to build the Miami Marlins Stadium, the Miami-Dade taxpayers are on the hook for 40 years to pay off the bonds they issued for stadium construction. A $91 million bond is going to cost the taxpayers $1.2 billion to pay off.

This is the endless .... that goes on, and I cannot understand why anyone thinks it is even a good precedent to be paying the commercial rights holders of either MotoGP or F1 large sums of money that are in turn subsidized by local governments/taxpayers to host a race in which the purported economic benefits are dubious at best. DORNA should be paying IMS, along with every other circuit, not the other way around. Imagine this, you have a piece of property you are looking to rent out to a tenant. You decide fair market value for the property is $4500 per month. A prospective tenant comes along that is well known, and they say, ah $4500, this is too much for us. We still are interested in the property. Given our name value and the the attention you will get from us occupying your property, we have a better proposal for you. Instead of us paying you, how about you pay us $10,000 per month? This will buy you name recognition. You wouldn't agree to that at all! But that is exactly what every major race circuit is doing! They are paying the leasee to OCCUPY their venue, and then they go begging to the local government to assume some or all of the cost!

It's ....... madness.

I keep praying COTA goes bankrupt so MotoGP can get the .... out of the USA.
 
GP does steal from tax payers, though it's chump change compared to the NFL (that is a "non profit status"). However these entities take what we give them. Scandinavians rejected another Olympics because they see the fleecing. We keep allowing ourselves to get robbed. The rich and powerful know all the tricks. Their schemes work because crooks in 'elected ' office are not held accountable. That, and they manage to convince voters the "rich create jobs".
 
it doesn't matter if indy was a .... track, the fact that it's pretty much chilling in the middle of the country made it convenient & affordable.

in that case, i will forever have a special place for indy because i really had an amazing time. even though the track is boring, the time i spent with the people there really made me incredibly happy & thankful.

i wouldn't trade it for the world!

so - don't be such a piss pants JPS. you can still enjoy good company with a side of racing.

a matter of fact - the racing is nice, but hanging with good people with common interest is 1000 times cooler.
 
JPSLotus said:
Good.



Honestly I don't know what the infatuation is with Indy.



It's a .... track for MotoGP no matter how you look at it. It means Dorna is no longer extorting the taxpayers of Indiana to get this race.



I'm in a distinct minority here, but for as much as I like racing, I do not want F1 or MotoGP in the USA period unless the financial terms make sense. Giving how every state and city continues getting ...... in the ... by the NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, etc. why people continue thinking it's okay to give into the financial demands of these sporting entities is beyond me.



For example, to build the Miami Marlins Stadium, the Miami-Dade taxpayers are on the hook for 40 years to pay off the bonds they issued for stadium construction. A $91 million bond is going to cost the taxpayers $1.2 billion to pay off.



This is the endless .... that goes on, and I cannot understand why anyone thinks it is even a good precedent to be paying the commercial rights holders of either MotoGP or F1 large sums of money that are in turn subsidized by local governments/taxpayers to host a race in which the purported economic benefits are dubious at best. DORNA should be paying IMS, along with every other circuit, not the other way around. Imagine this, you have a piece of property you are looking to rent out to a tenant. You decide fair market value for the property is $4500 per month. A prospective tenant comes along that is well known, and they say, ah $4500, this is too much for us. We still are interested in the property. Given our name value and the the attention you will get from us occupying your property, we have a better proposal for you. Instead of us paying you, how about you pay us $10,000 per month? This will buy you name recognition. You wouldn't agree to that at all! But that is exactly what every major race circuit is doing! They are paying the leasee to OCCUPY their venue, and then they go begging to the local government to assume some or all of the cost!



It's ....... madness.



I keep praying COTA goes bankrupt so MotoGP can get the .... out of the USA.
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Not sure if it is classified as an infatuation if you are a fan, have been there 3 times, and it was a kick ... time and good racing.. If that is the case, ever fan is infatuated with ever race, at ever track, and in ever form of motor sports.

Not getting into the financials of racing. Leave that to those that feel they understand it better than I. I just enjoy watching the racing live. Enjoy the "show", the atmosphere and the event as a whole. Not sure if I would be as big as a fan if I only got to watch it on the ..... box and never got to experience it live.

Will miss Indy, fingers crossed it will reappear down the road. COTA is in my bucket list..
 
Gary Hartstein, the former F1 doctor did an article on this last year and says what I've been saying for years. Certainly in Europe, the tracks have monopoly if they wanted to. They should form a cartel and say "Unless YOU pay US, you cannot race at ANY track within the consortium in Europe".

Sure, F1 would survive in the short term by just going to the middle eastern tracks, but most of them only last a year or two before going bankrupt and without european races, the european interest would wane. In the mean time the huge number of club, regional and national events taking place at the circuits would keep them going, because they wouldnt have huge costs associated with F1/MotoGP hosting.

Here is the article:

https://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2015/03/21/what-the-....-is-wrong-with-cvc-fom-bernie-the-lot-of-them/

I’m going to venture out of my usual terrain, and allow myself to talk about the sport of Formula 1 in general. This is brought on by a tweet this morning by the CEA, the (fabulous) crew of fire marshals at Monza (and Imola). The tweet shows the start of restoration on the tarmac at Parabolica. It jarred me to realise that even Monza has raised the spectre of no longer being able to host the Italian Grand Prix.

This summer has been oddly and uncomfortably full of ruminations and reflections as to what’s wrong with F1. Commissions have been formed . . . and disbanded. Those asking the question itself are accused of negativity. And meanwhile, a spine tingling championship is underway, with team orders given and followed, team orders given and disobeyed, and drivers battling as much with their minds as with their cars. And the cars – brand new, beautiful machines with power trains that are stunning in their sophistication. Is there anything REALLY wrong at all?

Let’s imagine something, to help me illustrate my answer to that question.

I’ve just built a bottling factory. Modern, efficient, state-of-the-art. And you, well you have a soft drink you need bottled. A very popular soft drink indeed. People all over the world want to drink it. And you want to use MY factory to bottle it!

When the time comes to do the deal, you tell me “there’s just one thing Gary. Our business model is a bit . . . unconventional. You see, normally I’d pay to use your factory. But since my beverage is SO popular, YOU’RE gonna have to pay ME for the privilege of hosting my drink”.

I guess you see the concerned look on my face. My factory cost money to build. It costs money to maintain. Everybody ELSE rents my factory when they want to use it. I seek reassurances.

“Don’t worry a bit, Gary, you can run guided tours and have people pay to see your factory working. And you can serve them lunch!”

I guess you see what I’m getting at. I’ll have to charge $100 for a tour, and get 100,000 people over the weekend. No way that’s gonna happen. A guaranteed loss. Every time. Damn.

Right now, as we all know, for $15 million or so, a circuit can buy the privilege of hosting an F1 race. And all it has to do to recoup that is to sell tickets and hotdogs. A lot of VERY expensive tickets and hotdogs. Not one cent of the TV revenues generated by that race, and not 1 metre of signage around the circuit can be used to generate revenue for the circuit itself.

It’s not FOM who makes F1 tickets astronomically expensive. It’s the circuits. Do the math. You need to make up several million dollars with three days of tickets, food, and beer. No wonder it’s only races with government support that avoid the year to year threat of bankruptcy.

So here we are with the backbone of the season, with virtually every European F1 circuit, either under severe financial threat . . . or gone. Spa, Monza, Silverstone, Hockenheim, Nurburgring, etc. This is insane.

Why do these circuits not do what any normal owners of crucial and rare resources would do? Form a cartel.

Why do the owner/operators of the “classic” circuits of the season not band together to put an end to the bizarro world of F1 circuit use. You want to use our infrastructure? It will cost you this much, plus a percent of global TV revenues (averaged over a season, to avoid late season races, with their bigger box offices, earning more just by their place in the calendar), plus some portion of the signage at our circuit.

Sure Bernie will bluster. He’ll threaten to go elsewhere. And to some extent he will go elsewhere- he’s been “going elsewhere” for years now. But remember a few things:

F1 homologated circuits are not a dime a dozen. They are rare birds indeed, and the lag time from project to race is YEARS.
Google earth is littered with abandoned Tilke-domes, each having cost $200-400 million. Think Istanbul, Korea, India. (What will archeologists in 500 years think these things were?) Only governments awash in petro- (or narco!) dollars will keep building these white elephants, and even that will ultimately peter out. Even the most corrupt autocrats have better ways to waste $400 million!
Even if FOM moves strategically away from Europe, it’s wrong to think that the circuits will be losing a prestigious money-making event (countries might be, clubs might be, fans might be . . .); in FACT, they’ll be (temporarily, see below) losing their biggest headache of the year. As a taxpayer here in Belgium, the question of who exactly is going to foot the known and expected loss from the upcoming Belgian GP is a perennial favourite, of which I’m growing quite sick.
FOM cannot, by the nature of the series, reduce the number of European/North American/South American races well below half (or slightly more) of the season. How many corners on ANY new-ish circuit do you remember? Is there an Eau Rouge? A 130R? A Becketts-Maggotts complex? A Tabac? This is not a diatribe about circuits, but dammit, they really ARE intimately involved in what we love about the sport. People will not get up early, or stay up late, to watch a race if this is not felt viscerally to be a EUROPEAN series. They’ll watch the evening news, and see the best overtakings and the results . . . and there go your TV revenues Mr. E. Sooner or later, European races will have to comprise close to the bulk of the season, with a smattering of exoticism added, because it’s F1.

Enormous advantages would accrue from a system like this. Not least would be a significant lowering of ticket prices, and an opening of the sport to a wider audience AT THE CIRCUIT. And as you all know, once you’ve seen this sport live, you’re hooked forever!

A different system for distributing revenues from the sport would vastly increase the “health” of the infrastructure supporting it. The team principles, until now staggering by how completely they ignore the long term interests of the sport that gave them all yachts and Gulfstreams, and FOM itself, would have to make do with slightly less. But the pillars of our sport would survive and flourish, and government support for what many view as a frivolous pastime would largely become unnecessary.

Rant over.
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littlesparrows said:
it doesn't matter if indy was a .... track, the fact that it's pretty much chilling in the middle of the country made it convenient & affordable.

in that case, i will forever have a special place for indy because i really had an amazing time. even though the track is boring, the time i spent with the people there really made me incredibly happy & thankful.

i wouldn't trade it for the world!

so - don't be such a piss pants JPS. you can still enjoy good company with a side of racing.

a matter of fact - the racing is nice, but hanging with good people with common interest is 1000 times cooler.
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Exactly this AND the racing was quite good. All three classes offered intriguing races. Moto3 was a massive shuffle, Moto2 was a battle, and MotoGP saw Marquez hound Lorenzo, Rossi and Dani battling for the podium all race.


And the social aspect affirmed lifetime friends and made new lifelong friends. The concessions were affordable. The party in town, cops friendly (that's incredible) is nothing I've ever experienced. There is nothing not to like actually.
 
Jumkie said:
GP does steal from tax payers, though it's chump change compared to the NFL (that is a "non profit status"). However these entities take what we give them. Scandinavians rejected another Olympics because they see the fleecing. We keep allowing ourselves to get robbed. The rich and powerful know all the tricks. Their schemes work because crooks in 'elected ' office are not held accountable. That, and they manage to convince voters the "rich create jobs".
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Sport is worse because people are sold on the idea that sport is more important than anything. Look at the Rams/St. Louis debacle. The best thing for St. Louis is that Stan Kroenke and the Rams .... off out of the city, yet the city council continues trying to give them more and more to stay. Even worse are the muppet fans who think a piece of their soul is being lost by losing the Rams. What they are too stupid and ignorant to realize is that they are being saved from an awful financial future that has literally no upside for them.

Yeah GP is nowhere near as bad as the NFL, but still believe every circuit in the US should do what Laguna did. I miss Laguna being on the calendar since it's a circuit that is perfect for motorcycle racing, but I also value the circuit's survival far more than I do GP at the end of the day.

And the reason we keep getting robbed is because the majority of fans allow their emotions to drive what's ultimately irrational decisions. The last NFL game I personally attended was in September 1991. I will never attend another NFL game in my life because I don't find the NFL to be deserving of a penny of my money because of how they choose to conduct their business.

Yeah I'm pretty much charging at Quixotic windmills since what I do really means not a ....... thing in the long run, since for every one thing I do, there's 10 million willing to do the opposite.
 
littlesparrows said:
it doesn't matter if indy was a .... track, the fact that it's pretty much chilling in the middle of the country made it convenient & affordable.

in that case, i will forever have a special place for indy because i really had an amazing time. even though the track is boring, the time i spent with the people there really made me incredibly happy & thankful.

i wouldn't trade it for the world!

so - don't be such a piss pants JPS. you can still enjoy good company with a side of racing.

a matter of fact - the racing is nice, but hanging with good people with common interest is 1000 times cooler.
Click to expand...

Yeah I guess. I feel some causes are much greater than those things.

What you're talking is an experience that is part of your overall life experience, and it's unique to yourself. What I'm talking about has much larger stakes, and has a much larger impact on society as a whole, over a far greater period of time. The happiness you experience is solely an individual experience, whereas the fleecing of taxpayers and the like will span generations and be felt by everyone regardless of whether they have any interest in GP/sport at large. I'm looking at this purely from a different vantage point atm.
 
JPSLotus said:
Yeah I guess. I feel some causes are much greater than those things.

What you're talking is an experience that is part of your overall life experience, and it's unique to yourself. What I'm talking about has much larger stakes, and has a much larger impact on society as a whole, over a far greater period of time. The happiness you experience is solely an individual experience, whereas the fleecing of taxpayers and the like will span generations and be felt by everyone regardless of whether they have any interest in GP/sport at large. I'm looking at this purely from a different vantage point atm.
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I have to disagree with you here. I hear you bro but there is another aspect to consider. Our government fleeces its taxpayers on many fronts particularly the budgets it gives to many wasteful departments. And when I say wasteful I'm talking extreme waste. This race event represents some fleecing however at least some of us get something back by attending. Not to mention there is an economic impact that creates a bit of a buffer to the sanctioning fees that GP fleeces from the local tax payers. That's something back is not only an economic impact but as you say a social impact. Many studies have shown that having a positive social impact also has a positive influence on a broad spectrum of aspects in culture and individual quality of life. Add all that up and there is a great buffer against whatever amount of money is being fleeced from the event. Now contrast this to the extreme waste by other government departments in terms of cost benefit analysis.


Let me give you one small example. I know an architect who has contracts to remodel courthouses. He said when he started the business they used to remodel courthouses out about 3 to 4 million a pop. Since terrorist attacks have become the forefront of American psyche those contracts have gone up to 60 to 70 million a pop. That's everywhere around the nation. I can't even begin to imagine the increases in rationalization /manipulation by those who stand to make plenty of profits on the notion of security in other aspects such as law enforcement, education, border control, food supply, water supply, etc etc etc.
 
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kurre said:
Jumkie, are you a Fox News fan?
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Haha. No. And far from defending Dorna, but at least I get something back by attending a USGP that when making a cost benefit analysis is more affordable than other types of fleecing.

Dorna: hey guys I want a few million to fleece you, but hey you get to see a race.

Xyz weapons manufacturer inc. : hey guys you really need this new billion/trillion dollar weapon to keep you safe. But...we already have lots of weapons for that. No, problem, let me see if I can convince senator X.

Fox news: we need more weapons! Be scared!

Ok peeps, we are buying this new billion/trillion dollar weapons. Can never be too safe.


Yes, Dorna is fleecing by making deals with our elected politicians who are conspiring to steal from us, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to other ..... And at least I can enjoy a race.
 
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Jumkie said:
I'll have to disagree with you here. Our government fleeces its taxpayers on many fronts particularly the budgets it gives to many wasteful departments. And when I say wasteful I'm talking extreme waste. This race event represents some fleecing however at least some of us get something back by attending. Not to mention there is an economic impact that creates a bit of a buffer to the sanctioning fees that GP fleeces from the local tax payers. That's something back is not only an economic impact but as you say a social impact. Many studies have shown that having a positive social impact also has a positive influence on a broad spectrum of aspects in culture and individual quality of life. Add all that up and there is a great buffer against whatever amount of money is being fleeced from the event. Now contrast this to the extreme waste by other government departments in terms of cost benefit analysis.
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Sure the fleecing goes on, on a much larger scale with federal department budgets. But that it goes on there with the caveat that GP is so minimal in comparison, doesn't make it right. It's like picking between being robbed at gunpoint or at knife point? Is either really any better than the other?

The problem the economic benefits is that they are always drastically overstated, and often come up far short of whatever the projections are. When the Super Bowl was at Met Life Stadium, New Jersey ultimately wound up losing money on the entire thing, in spite of the claims that it would inject $500+ million into the local area. Does money get injected locally? Sure, but never at whatever the claimed estimates are. And then even at that, you have to be a business owner within a certain vicinity of the event to have a chance at getting some of that money...and then even at that, you have to have a business that the people will want to use. If you own a restaurant or drinking establishment, or a hotel, then you have a better chance of seeing money out of the local event. If you own a business that provides a service only really applicable to residents, are you really going to see much, if any money out of it? If I own say a carpet cleaning business, unless I've got a contract with IMS to clean the carpets in the facilities, or any of the eating establishments for that matter, I'm going to see no increased revenue from the event. Now if you are just an average resident who doesn't own a small business, and works for a company that has no connection to IMS/GP/business connected with either of those, is there any economic impact that helps you, the little guy out? Absolutely not. There was no economic benefit to me with the Super Bowl being local to where I live. All I did was avoid everything in a certain radius of Met Life Stadium.

What I feel the gist of your argument is, is that it is a pick your poison kind of deal. Since the bloat and excesses of the federal government is on such a vast, almost incomprehensible scale, GP obviously pales in comparison, and since one can attend, that helps offset GP's excess and thievery.

What I'd argue is that sport only serves to provide a smokescreen to what really matters. Hey listen I find it fun to watch and follow. But it's a drug for public consumption to keep them docile. If people are outraged over Deflategate, steroids in baseball, who's team is better, and so on, how could they have time to pay attention to the ultimate fleecing where the effects cannot yet even be determined? Sport at the end of the day is social control at it's absolute finest. It's a way to create a prison for the populace at large and instill ideas of character building, morality, and all sorts of happy ........ about other "intangibles".

But that's also true of entertainment at large, it's a drug for the population.

Yeah I know I'm pretty much a ....... psychotic killjoy.

I still watch/follow sports in spite of all of this.

This makes me a terrible person.
 
Jumkie said:
Haha. No. And far from defending Dorna, but at least I get something back by attending a USGP that when making a cost benefit analysis is more affordable than other types of fleecing.

Dorna: hey guys I want a few million to fleece you, but hey you get to see a race.

Xyz weapons manufacturer inc. : hey guys you really need this new billion/trillion dollar weapon to keep you safe. But...we already have lots of weapons for that. No, problem, let me see if I can convince senator X.

Fox news: we need more weapons! Be scared!

Ok peeps, we are buying this new billion/trillion dollar weapons. Can never be too safe.


Yes, Dorna is fleecing by making deals with our elected politicians who are conspiring to steal from us, but it's a drop in the bucket compared to other ..... And at least I can enjoy a race.
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you got it ... backwards, Fox preaches to be afraid of government, the rest ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC preach that you should be terrified of everything and if you give up your rights, the government will keep you safe.
 
JP, some good points. I agree with them. To be clear, I was comparing government fleecing, both bad though contrasting magnitude; where perhaps the message was where our rage would best be suited. And yeah, my point was exactly I'd rather get my 14k gold ring stolen from my finger than getting ... ..... and generations getting ....... Its a reasonable decision.

Agree about most of your points. Life offers many contradictions bro. 1984. Its happening. Meanwhile I wanted to go to Indy again. It was a trip of a lifetime.
 
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povol said:
you got it ... backwards, Fox preaches to be afraid of government, the rest ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC preach that you should be terrified of everything and if you give up your rights, the government will keep you safe.
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Nah bro, Fox is preaching, if you elect these particular politicians, all republicans, they will keep you safe. They're "good" government, those other guys are "bad" government. That and we should suck rich guy .....

ALL of them, Fox included, use fear, that I'll give you.
 
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