Interesting thoughts by Carlo Pernat

povol said:

Even if Lorenzo misses the final 2 races, which would make them even on number of races missed, Pedrosa cannot catch Lorenzo in points, even if he wins the last 2 races. Lorenzo and the Yamaha have been more than a match for all the Honda's, except one. Without Stoner Honda does not win the title. Im not really sure why that is so hard to understand. Pedrosa put himself in the position of racing with sasquatch and it cost him. Stoner was fast enough this year to live in a sasquatch free environment . We saw a lot of Dovi, Pedrosa, and sasquatch running in the same circles this year, hardly ever was Stoner in that grouping. What you saw this year was a very good bike, with the best rider in the world riding it. The Honda was not a dominant bike, it did make for a dominant combo.

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Yeah, until it gets blasted past on the straights. It's taken Honda four years to finally get there, but they've done it in the end and produced a top bike. Just goes to show, perseverance pays off. Hopefully the other manufacturers are up for the challenge, but it's true that Yamaha are by far the closest.

Nino said:

Yeah, until it gets blasted past on the straights. It's taken Honda four years to finally get there, but they've done it in the end and produced a top bike. Just goes to show, perseverance pays off. Hopefully the other manufacturers are up for the challenge, but it's true that Yamaha are by far the closest.

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Yet stoner has won 5 years in a row at PI, regardless of the quality of his bike or those of his opposition.



Most passing this year by the top bikes and by stoner in particular seems to have been on corners anyway, and hondas have often not had the top speed if that is your only criterion.

double

michaelm said:

Yet stoner has won 5 years in a row at PI, regardless of the quality of his bike or those of his opposition.



Most passing this year by the top bikes and by stoner in particular seems to have been on corners anyway, and hondas have often not had the top speed if that is your only criterion.

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Agreed, but the Honda gets off the turns far better than any other bike, coupled with Stoner's ability to stand the bike up early makes the difference. I don't think anyone is arguing that Stoner is not a great rider, however the fallacy that he would still be winning on a Ducati or a Yamaha or even a Suzuki is nothing more than dumb ... Boner talk, and as a lot of regular members are starting to finally admit, most boners are worse than any bopper.



Stoner's best move was made midway through 2010-to Honda, a time when Honda pulled out all of the stops-invested tens of millions in development to finally secure at least one 800cc title, something for which if they hadn't achieved would have been very embarrassing for the Japanese heavyweight , not to mention the regs they designed are finally starting to really pay dividends (6 engine rule in particular).



At least you agree that the series needs major changes going forward, if we have another year like 2011 next year, more sponsors will be looking elsewhere with the GFC looking to continue for a while yet, leaving this sport high and dry and if I where a marketing person for a large corporation there is no way in the world I would give any money to support a team in a series in which the major competition writes the rules!!! Its is no surprise that Yamaha can not find a major sponsor, Ducati have Rossi-otherwise they'd be in a similar state of poo, and Suzuki only fields a half-effort.



Viewing numbers are dropping, attendance numbers are well down, money is drying up, serious injuries are more prominent than ever, yet racing is more expensive and dull than ever....this is chronic miss-management....and the current fix to the 1000's doesn't seem to be anywhere near enough.

Talpa said:

Agreed, but the Honda gets off the turns far better than any other bike, coupled with Stoner's ability to stand the bike up early makes the difference. I don't think anyone is arguing that Stoner is not a great rider, however the fallacy that he would still be winning on a Ducati or a Yamaha or even a Suzuki is nothing more than dumb ... Boner talk, and as a lot of regular members are starting to finally admit, most boners are worse than any bopper.



Stoner's best move was made midway through 2010-to Honda, a time when Honda pulled out all of the stops-invested tens of millions in development to finally secure at least one 800cc title, something for which if they hadn't achieved would have been very embarrassing for the Japanese heavyweight , not to mention the regs they designed are finally starting to really pay dividends (6 engine rule in particular).



At least you agree that the series needs major changes going forward, if we have another year like 2011 next year, more sponsors will be looking elsewhere with the GFC looking to continue for a while yet, leaving this sport high and dry and if I where a marketing person for a large corporation there is no way in the world I would give any money to support a team in a series in which the major competition writes the rules!!! Its is no surprise that Yamaha can not find a major sponsor, Ducati have Rossi-otherwise they'd be in a similar state of poo, and Suzuki only fields a half-effort.



Viewing numbers are dropping, attendance numbers are well down, money is drying up, serious injuries are more prominent than ever, yet racing is more expensive and dull than ever....this is chronic miss-management....and the current fix to the 1000's doesn't seem to be anywhere near enough.

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Sure, I didn't like this formula in 2007, and stoner doesn't like it either.



The main thing I object to the "he only wins because he is on the best bike/has advantages " thing, and in particular that this only applies to his championships and not those of others; most other than a few die-hards like nino have given up on this. I think honda have thrown plenty of money at the formula during its entire existence btw, and the 3 man factory team was imposed on them by dovi insisting the provisions of his contract be adhered to. Valentino himself said as long ago as late 2008/early 2009 that he or stoner could win on a honda.



I would agree yamaha have not pulled out all stops to further develop their 800 bike in the last year of the formula, but they arguably started with what was a good or even the best bike for the previous 2 or 3 years, and some things including their 800cc engine may not have had any remaining development potential anyway.



Having the manufacturers/competitors decide the rules seems crazy a priori, and is unfair if some have more say than others, and the current situation certainly militates against ducati and suzuki . Part of the situation seems to be due to honda having influence because they provide the most bikes and have done so historically. I don't think yamaha can be absolved of responsibilty either though, and are happy with the current cartel, and neither they or honda would appear interested in smoothing the way for other manufacturers such as aprilia to enter the premier class.

michaelm said:

Sure, I didn't like this formula in 2007, and stoner doesn't like it either.



The main thing I object to the "he only wins because he is on the best bike/has advantages " thing, and in particular that this only applies to his championships and not those of others; most other than a few die-hards like nino have given up on this. I think honda have thrown plenty of money at the formula during its entire existence btw, and the 3 man factory team was imposed on them by dovi insisting the provisions of his contract be adhered to. Valentino himself said as long ago as late 2008/early 2009 that he or stoner could win on a honda.



I would agree yamaha have not pulled out all stops to further develop their 800 bike in the last year of the formula, but they arguably started with what was a good or even the best bike for the previous 2 or 3 years, and some things including their 800cc engine may not have had any remaining development potential anyway.



Having the manufacturers decide the rules seems crazy a priori, and the current situation certainly militates against ducati and suzuki , and part of the situation seems to be due to honda having influence because they provide the most bikes and have done so historically. I don't think yamaha can be absolved of responsibilty either though, and are happy with the current cartel, and neither they or honda would appear interested in smoothing the way for other manufacturers such as aprilia to enter the premier class.

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I don't know how well known it is but Aprilia is the reason for moto2, same thing we see happening that we see in gp. Things got way to expensive. Moto2=good

Talpa said:

Agreed, but the Honda gets off the turns far better than any other bike, coupled with Stoner's ability to stand the bike up early makes the difference. I don't think anyone is arguing that Stoner is not a great rider, however the fallacy that he would still be winning on a Ducati or a Yamaha or even a Suzuki is nothing more than dumb ... Boner talk, and as a lot of regular members are starting to finally admit, most boners are worse than any bopper.

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You havent changed...only a cyclops would say Stoner wouldnt be winning races on a Yamaha or Ducati - and he could probably win on a zook too. More bopper extreme nonsense from the chairman of the boppers.

Talpa said:

Stoner's best move was made midway through 2010-to Honda, a time when Honda pulled out all of the stops-invested tens of millions in development to finally secure at least one 800cc title, something for which if they hadn't achieved would have been very embarrassing for the Japanese heavyweight , not to mention the regs they designed are finally starting to really pay dividends (6 engine rule in particular).

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Wasnt it 400 million dollars that Honda spent this year? That was what you told the forum a few months ago - nows its suddenly only "tens of millions".



This is just another example of your total distortion of the truth. How many of the myths that you and your ilk have perpetuated over the last few years have been blown to smithereens this past season. You could fill a book with a list of "facts" that according to you were reality that now have turned out to be proven as utter bollocks. Pretty well 99% of your "opinions" over the past few seasons have been completely debunked and discredited by many well informed sources who know way more than you - so why would anyone now take your opinions seriously?

Talpa said:

Agreed, but the Honda gets off the turns far better than any other bike, coupled with Stoner's ability to stand the bike up early makes the difference. I don't think anyone is arguing that Stoner is not a great rider, however the fallacy that he would still be winning on a Ducati or a Yamaha or even a Suzuki is nothing more than dumb ... Boner talk, and as a lot of regular members are starting to finally admit, most boners are worse than any bopper.



Stoner's best move was made midway through 2010-to Honda, a time when Honda pulled out all of the stops-invested tens of millions in development to finally secure at least one 800cc title, something for which if they hadn't achieved would have been very embarrassing for the Japanese heavyweight , not to mention the regs they designed are finally starting to really pay dividends (6 engine rule in particular).



At least you agree that the series needs major changes going forward, if we have another year like 2011 next year, more sponsors will be looking elsewhere with the GFC looking to continue for a while yet, leaving this sport high and dry and if I where a marketing person for a large corporation there is no way in the world I would give any money to support a team in a series in which the major competition writes the rules!!! Its is no surprise that Yamaha can not find a major sponsor, Ducati have Rossi-otherwise they'd be in a similar state of poo, and Suzuki only fields a half-effort.



Viewing numbers are dropping, attendance numbers are well down, money is drying up, serious injuries are more prominent than ever, yet racing is more expensive and dull than ever....this is chronic miss-management....and the current fix to the 1000's doesn't seem to be anywhere near enough.

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So let me get this straight, Stoner would not be winning on a Yamaha, yet Lorenzo is winning on the Yamaha that has not progressed from last year, when Stoner beat the same Yamaha 3 times on a Ducati. Let me think about this, yep, your a dumb .... Stoner would more than likely have won Qatar and PI this year on the Ducati, not Rossi's Ducati that he has gone completely backwards in development, but a slightly different version of his 2010 bike, maybe different shaped winglets.

hawkdriver said:

I don't know how well known it is but Aprilia is the reason for moto2, same thing we see happening that we see in gp. Things got way to expensive. Moto2=good

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Sure, the lease fees were exorbitant and the leased bikes not necessarily as good as the full factory ones. That they behaved similarly to honda in the 250s doesn't mean honda want them in motogp though, probably the contrary, and they and yamaha are happy not to have others like bmw either, preserving what has basically been a duopoly for most of the last 3 decades.



The racing is good in moto2, but marquez aside these are not the best riders imo; elias won the championship last year against most of this field, and de angelis another motogp also-ran is still a winner. The big question for me is whether moto2 success is going to provide any guide to premier class potential.

michaelm said:

Sure, the lease fees were exorbitant and the leased bikes not necessarily as good as the full factory ones. That they behaved similarly to honda in the 250s doesn't mean honda want them in motogp though, probably the contrary, and they and yamaha are happy not to have others like bmw either, preserving what has basically been a duopoly for most of the last 3 decades.



The racing is good in moto2, but marquez aside these are not the best riders imo; elias won the championship last year against most of this field, and de angelis another motogp also-ran is still a winner. The big question for me is whether moto2 success is going to provide any guide to premier class potential.

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I hope things end up being where moto2 can be a good feeder for GP, I don't get to watch to much of any other series so I don't know where the next great talent is gonna come from. I've never raced either so I don't know if it's the change to 4 strokes and these young riders getting used to them that has them getting beat by Elias. It would be interesting to hear comments from some of our racers or people with 2 stroke and 4 stroke experience.