Joined Oct 2006
3K Posts | 34+
Tar Heel State
Interesting thoughts by Carlo Pernat
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Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Even if Lorenzo misses the final 2 races, which would make them even on number of races missed, Pedrosa cannot catch Lorenzo in points, even if he wins the last 2 races. Lorenzo and the Yamaha have been more than a match for all the Honda's, except one. Without Stoner Honda does not win the title. Im not really sure why that is so hard to understand. Pedrosa put himself in the position of racing with sasquatch and it cost him. Stoner was fast enough this year to live in a sasquatch free environment . We saw a lot of Dovi, Pedrosa, and sasquatch running in the same circles this year, hardly ever was Stoner in that grouping. What you saw this year was a very good bike, with the best rider in the world riding it. The Honda was not a dominant bike, it did make for a dominant combo.
Without Pedrosa's (perennial) injuries, the likely result would have been a Honda 1-2 in the standings, and a revised opinion of the relative strength of the Honda.
Even without the injuries, though, it seemed like Pedrosa's off days were worse than Stoner's off days, and when Stoner won it was by bigger margins. So I'd say an injury-free Pedrosa's chances for the WC on the same bike as Stoner would still be less than 50-50.
In a way, maybe the people who thought Pedrosa didn't have the strength to ride a MotoGP bike were right. He's fast and talented, but doesn't bounce well.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Maybe, possible, but not likely. In the 11 races that Lorenzo and Pedrosa lined up head to head, Lorenzo outscored him 217 to 195.
Pedrosa was also healing an injury in some of those 11 races. There are a lot of ifs to the debate. They are both on par with each other and a class above most.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Thats life in the racing world. Everyone has bumps and bruises and aches and pains. Even Stoner was hindered by a pinched nerve in his neck for a month or so this year. Dani put himself in the position to tangle with Sic, thats on him. He also crashed out of a race all by himself, just like Lorenzo crashed himself out. Whats the old saying about ifs and buts. The argument is that the Honda is some unbeatable machine, and im saying thats ......... Lorenzo whipped 3 of the best riders in the world on those unbeatable machines on a weekly basis. He just couldnt beat the 4th on a regular basis.
Not really, but I take your point -- Pedrosa wasn't very likely to beat Lorenzo.
I understand your concern that Stoner's championship not be downplayed in any way, but you're going to have a miserable time of it if you have 0 patience for the idea that the Honda was better than the Yamaha this year.
Good post talpa, things have come to a pretty pass with you praising stoner and me being hammered for complaining about the formula.
Actually Mick, I laughed out loud when reading the more obsessed Boners digs at you, once again highlighting their intelligence level
It sure enough is life in the racing world, Povol, I'm nowhere saying it isn't. Just stating a fact about the fact you stated. 217 to 195- head to head, but not head to head all the way as Pedrosa was not fully fit when he returned. Had Pedrosa been fully fit, Stoner would have still won in my opinion, but there would have been more Repsol 1-2, and not so much Yamaha 2.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Any way you want to play the game, Lorenzo was better than Dani straight up. Throw out the 8th place finish when Dani came back, then throw out Lorenzo's worst finish of 4th, which deducts 13 points from Lorenzo and 8 from Dani, makes it 204 to 187. Keep in mind, Pedrosa won the next race, so dont go looking for more deductions and using the recovery excuse.
The sport has always been about entertainment, whether you like extreme bikes or close racing you are watching because it entertains you. Filling the stands is one thing but today you have to get TV ratings to draw sponsors to the sport. This sport has to compete against everything else that comes on TV. Dorna is in the same position as Ducati, leave things how they are and fail against the competition or make changes. I have never seen any ratings info for GP but if the advertisers/ sponsors aren't spending money it's because there are better places to get more more value for your money, so gp must fix the formula and get the sponsors back. It looks like they are taking a two prong approach by making the bikes cheaper, and fixing the rules to not let the big factories dominate the sport. I think the CRT bikes are gonna give gp a shot in the arm,everyone is gonna be tuning in to watch the new machines and riders.
I'll just tell you what every one's thinking instead of beating around the bush and trying to play with stats. Jlo can hang with Casey, he was down on power this year and still did the best he could to defend his title. Everyone knows the Yam was down on power to much this year, I think the battle between these two next year will see more wins split between the two. I'm not taking anything away from Casey either, notice I said Jlo can hang with him and not the other way around. Jlo's crashes this year are just like the ones Casey was having on the Duc, they were both having to push the bike farther than it was capable.
Yes, and by the same argument lorenzo would have won the 2008 championship without all those high sides, and pedrosa the championship in all the years of the 800 formula except for similar problems with injuries every year. Dani won races even in 2007 against the supposed ducati hyperbike.
As I have consistently said all these years, you can but give credit to the rider who wins. Similar quibbles can be made about most championships in history, I think very few have been won in the absence of any injuries to competitors and without at least a very good bike. Speculating about an injury-free season for dani gets further into the realm of the hypothetical than most speculation in any case, not dani's fault but not that of his competitors either.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Hawk were you the one who explained to me Yamaha/JB/Rossi developed the M1 to have an advantage in front tyre grip, specifically a larger front contact patch. Did Yamaha suddenly lose this advantage?
Prior to this year, what was the most reported weakness for the Honda? Power, no. Corner exit, no. Unstable under braking, poor turn in to the appex yes.
Did Honda suddenly cure this and instantly become better than Yamaha? No, even Stoner said relatively speaking the Honda was unstable on the brakes.
So each bike has inherent advantages and weaknesses. No one design is perfect in all ways, comprehensively better.
Its the riders job to use whatever advantage is at their disposal to compete and win. Last year it was Lorenzo, this year Stoner, next year who knows?
The thing that surprised me most at PI was how smooth Stoner rides the Honda. Sure he slides but I was expecting to see this wild man almost out of control. Instead it looked the complete opposite, in fact he looked the slowest out of everyone. Isnt that the classic thing, the fastest rider actually looks the slowest and smoothest. If anyone looked fast it was Crutchlow, but of course he wasnt, just out of control.
Prior to this year, what was the most reported weakness for the Honda? Power, no. Corner exit, no. Unstable under braking, poor turn in to the appex yes.
Did Honda suddenly cure this and instantly become better than Yamaha? No, even Stoner said relatively speaking the Honda was unstable on the brakes.
So each bike has inherent advantages and weaknesses. No one design is perfect in all ways, comprehensively better.
Its the riders job to use whatever advantage is at their disposal to compete and win. Last year it was Lorenzo, this year Stoner, next year who knows?
The thing that surprised me most at PI was how smooth Stoner rides the Honda. Sure he slides but I was expecting to see this wild man almost out of control. Instead it looked the complete opposite, in fact he looked the slowest out of everyone. Isnt that the classic thing, the fastest rider actually looks the slowest and smoothest. If anyone looked fast it was Crutchlow, but of course he wasnt, just out of control.
The clutch issues with the Honda were fixed, it's what was causeing the problems during braking and not a lack of grip. The real reason Honda was so much better this year though was because they finally switched to the magneti marreli electronics and gave up on their system. When people say x rider needs more or less electronics it isn't really always about the traction control and more about the ability to save fuel and get the rear wheel to behave how the rider wants it to all the time and not just during acceleration. The quality of the electronics guy plays to much of a factor in racing, the teams are important but I suspect some of them have a few little tricks up their sleeves when it comes to the electronics and setting them up. We've all seen some of the bikes bucking around and getting unsettled, the only way to fix it is with the clutch and electronics, a technical advantage.
This is a great article on how advanced the electronics are in GP and how the teams can use the same exact system and do things differently to control the bike. This is about electronics and the different way yamaha and ducati were using them when the article was written. As a side note does anyone who has been to any of this years races heard the engines cutting in and out during hard acceleration. As far as I know this doesn't happen with the major factory bikes anymore and the electronics are just getting better and better, so are the clutches.
http://www.bukisa.com/articles/93795_moto-gp-control-systems-modern-motorcycle-systems-overview-panel#ixzz1DvZkD8U8
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Joined Jan 2011
3K Posts | 152+
The North!
Did you also notice how Stoner seems to get on the gas earlier than the others whilst in a corner?
At silverstone stood on copse corner with the other PS guys it was blatentley obvious Stoner was on the gas a good 10-15 meters before anyone else
Joined Jun 2007
10K Posts | 1K+
Norah Head
Did you also notice how Stoner seems to get on the gas earlier than the others whilst in a corner?
At silverstone stood on copse corner with the other PS guys it was blatentley obvious Stoner was on the gas a good 10-15 meters before anyone else
Yeah Babel ( who used to get on here ) had that worked out .......... his batteries, for all the "so much electronics" he is using, are going flat so he has to do everything earlier
But in reality ....... I think thats just his Kurri kid type dirt bike training coming in there, he's just loosening up the back end ( or preparing it ) to divert any front tyre slippage to the rear should it occur. And it was pretty wet looking at Silverstone so I guess he had a bit of wandering front end happening.
Joined Mar 2011
319 Posts | 0+
London
Gee yeah! and they both won the same amount as Stoner did on the Ducati Rossi is riding back in 2010 !!
Did they crash the same number of times aswell?
