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Interesting thoughts by Carlo Pernat

Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Carlo Pernat had some interesting words. http://www.gpone.com...-una-Honda.html



Three punches:



Punch #1

A. It should also be mentioned that if Stoner wasn't at Honda, Yamaha would be leading the championship. B. They could never manage a win in five years with Pedrosa.



Actually, I'd call it punch 1a & b. Another guy making the point that if Stoner wasn’t on a Honda, Yamaha could very well be on to win the title. Food for thought for those who think Honda is all rave and Yamaha are not on par with it. For all intents and purposes Honda=Yamaha. The only difference in this year's title was the rider.



And punch 1b., for me, the more entertaining but equally true punch--- Pedro didn’t deliver despite having it all his way. Honda put all their egg in Pedro's puny basket, and they screwed themselves.



Punch #2

The second point is on the entertainment level of MotoGP: the races continue to be ugly. This should be worrisome to a lot of people.



A sentiment not popular with some fans who misrepresent the description of calling the racing "boring" or "snooze fest" or "unexciting" liking it to some crime against humanity (exaggeration for effect). They fail to distinguish the point being made and think the person describing the racing in such terms must mean they don't understand the nature of the sport (surely Carlo Pernat understands it just a little) or worse and chalk it up to tribalism (my guy isn’t winning so they are just whining). Its not a dig at any one rider; but just maybe, just maybe... the racing is actually uneventful. To those that will retort with, its because we don't appreciate the exquisite talent in which certain riders negotiate the track, I'd say, I get more pleasure from this aspect during practices, which at least they follow said riders around the entire lap. (I personally get very excited during a race, but as it progresses the outcome is a forgone conclusion. And when there is a nice little battle, I find myself frustrated that they jump to the overplayed garage's-reaction-shot just as the maneuver has been executed. )



Punch #3

The third topic is the situation at Ducati: it keeps getting worse and worse, and you can't be testing a bike during GP weekends. A divorce would be understandable right now. If I was Rossi's manager, I'd go to Lucio Cecchinello, get on a Honda, pay him, and go racing.







While watching this weekend’s race, a side note (yeah, after giving props to Stoner, don’t want to get jumped for not being in the moment) was the lackluster and frustrating performance of works Ducati factory. Particularly frustrating to me (bias alert) was seeing Nicky Hayden get swallowed up by a procession of riders at Phillip Island, a place where he's as good as he can be. At first I was able to rationalize when the Hondas came passing by, one by one, but when the Suzuki passed, that was a bit much for me to stomach. It may seem like Nicky was just fading due to lack of will, but riding on the knife edge is what we were watching, and we wouldn't have known until Rossi lost the front on a similar machine, giving confirmation that the edge was very sharp indeed. Now this last punch can provide multiple aspects and talking points. For me in particular, it highlights the continuation of this idea that only one rider's career must survive the Ducati black hole. It speaks again to the tier system of human importance in MotoGP politic--that is, its still stuck in the Ptolemaic view of the universe where Rossi represents Earth. The world standings have both Ducati factory teammates almost carbon copies of eachother, only 7 points apart, and with only one podium each, its a bit hard to argue the disparity of talent among the two men this year on generally similar machines (and this in a season where the updates have been decidedly one way). Which leaves me with a great desire for Ducati to get thier act together, if that means go conventional, the so be it, and get their two very talented riders mixing it up with their true peers at the front. Perhaps Pernat may be in an interesting position to comment on Ducati, since he's managed Loris Capirossi, who is now headed to retirement. We've all been tricked into thinking that we have four manufacture entries with competitive machines, but in reality, its always been about Yamaha and Honda. Perhaps this will improve once the CRT teams start to develop, time will tell.



There are other talking points this third punch provides, sure. Like the lesson of machine parity in the sport, the unsustainable costs by the factories, the spec tire situation and how it effects certain manufactures, etc. Feel free to take a stab at one of them. After all, we are just floating around personal opinions and takes about this sport we here all follow.
 
1 Pedro has talent but the guy can't finish a season without injury. With no Casey to ride the Honda, Jlo probably wins title two but I think it comes down to the talent levels of Casey and Jlo being the only guys on the grid that can compete with each other. The Yam has been lacking power but it's no slouch, and next year we should see Casey and Jlo going at it again. Both factories will be developing again at full speed instead of just the Honda of this year with Honda desperate for a title and yamaha not wanting to waste money on the last of the 800s.

2 The races have been ugly except for a few

3 Ducati needs to .... can their design and not force their heritage dna into the bike, let the machine become what it needs to be to win instead of trying to force a machine that can't win into winning and wasting massive amounts of money, time, and riders' careers. GP isn't about experimenting it's about winning. The other thing that pisses me off about them is we are now hearing the complaints of even more parts that were asked for in the beginning of the season still not delivered.
 
WOW. Did he just say what alot of people are thinking but too afraid to say out loud?

Lets face it, the Ducati is a different beast. Casey has been the only one to consistantly do something special with it. (maybe it was Casey's style or his management of riding)

Vale is a talent, we all agree on this. Someone like Vale doesn't lose his talent like an airline loses luggage. There is something fundamently wrong. A "divorce" is a good word for it.

Will it happen? I doubt it. It would make for great press coverage though.



Boring (ugly) races? - Overall I'd have to tick the yes box (with smatterings of excitement).



Casey + Honda + pit crew = world champoinship not just Casey. The whole package must work. Look at Rossi, he's a champion, JB (& crew) are still with him, they are champions too. But Rossi + JB (crew) + Ducati does not equal Championships or even race wins!! So, I think Carlo may be correct here.



Remember: times change. What was last years model/bike/team does not necessarily mean it will be the same as this year or next.



What's required to fix it? Hmmmm.... in short. Lots. What though????
 
1 Pedro has talent but the guy can't finish a season without injury.



Even though I am a Pedro fan so I know what I say about him could be biased, that pretty much sums it up. He was doing great last year until the throttle got stuck or something 5 mins into the first free practice right when he started to put pressure on Lorenzo for the title and had to miss 3 races...



If he can go a year without being injured or hurt where it effects his performance significantly(EDIT: without it being his fault), and still doesn't win the title, then he isn't world champion material(in my opinion).
 
Yes indeed the writing is one the wall for Motogp, this has been the ugliest season racing wise in a very long time, if not ever. 2010 was also pretty close. Personally I recorded and flicked through the race after watching the first 4 laps, its easier this way as not too much changes. Two factory Yamahas not present, not too mention still without a title sponsor made for a truly pathetic event, no doubt most of Europe switched off mid-way too.



Pernot is indeed saying all of the things that everyone is thinking, and he is in one of the best positions to Judge on all of these points. I agree completely Jums that Nicky is the best he can be at the Island, and possibly Laguna, and once again we witnessed the Ducati riders completely on the edge, and over it.....just to finish mid-pack. Dovi's pass on Nicky not even halfway down Gardiner Straight highlighted for me the unbelievable strength of the Honda off the turns, even against the Ducati which is no slouch in a straight line.



Pernot is also right about Rossi, I believe Ducati does not have the resources, nor the skill to build a competitive Motogp machine under these restrictions with these control tyres. Next year will be no different, unless they build a carbon copy Yamaha or Honda. Rossi's Crash looked exactly the same as any one of Casey's last

year, IMO the engine vibes are causing the problem being a stressed member, this is only thing that hasn't changed, and its the only thing the really needs to change.



Unfortunately, Ducati are well behind the 8 ball inn comparison to Honda and Yamaha if they were to copy them, both of the riders are still exceptional talents, however they are both aging. Rossi needs a tip-top bike for a full effort next season as it could be one of his last chances at grabbing the tenth title, I don't believe Ducati will deliver this as they are ridiculously slow at implementing vital changes, as Honda's chief commented very early in the season. Pernot is right, if Rossi wants to win next year, he'll need a Honda or a Yamaha.



Everyone has held out hope, however now its clear that they will never compete, Ducati have been well off the consistent pace for 2 years now, Rossi can't ride the thing at competitive race pace, Stoner could however he was playing with fire and more often than not got burnt finishing well behind the leaders last season. I don't believe the engineers and JB/Rossi are seeing eye to eye and the results are well beyond embarrassing, more like just plain old sad.



Most Rossi fans thought it was a big mistake for him to go to Ducati, now it has been well proven, unless we see a miracle or a serious change to regs next year, the results will not change unless he moves to Honda or Yamaha.



Congratulations to Casey on a well-deserved title, he's managed to pull himself away from the bad practice behavior to be a stand out talent- this has even impressed me......
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I don't blame Ducati for trying the CF frame.

In theory, it should work. It should be possible to engineer any variation of stiffness or flex in any direction, into a CF frame, and that combination should be ideal, allowing them to tune different frames to suit different tracks.

In reality, massive fail, but I think it has been a fail because Ducati have been unable to build a frame to react in the way they need (or they just don't understand exactly what is needed). Secondly, I think the problem is the relationship between the rigid engine, stiff frame, and suspension (and possibly design flaws in the dimensions of the bikes).

In theory, CF frames should be the way to go.



As a compromise between Ducati's ideology, and building a bike with the required characteristics, I think Ducati should build and test a bike with a full frame, twin spar, carbon fibre frame (just like an aluminium twin spar bike, but built in CF). To make this work, they must understand exactly the required amounts of stiffness and flex required in each part of the frame, and then engage CF specialists to engineer the frame according to those specs.

If they cannot make that work, throw away the whole CF idea, and go back to either steel trellis or to aluminium twin spar.



The world is a funny place for Ducati;

They ditch their WSBK program, and an old 'has been' on an old ex factory bike wins the world championship.

They focus on MGP, with the greatest rider in history, and possibly the greatest engineer in history, and they are nowhere.
 
I don't blame Ducati for trying the CF frame.

In theory, it should work. It should be possible to engineer any variation of stiffness or flex in any direction, into a CF frame, and that combination should be ideal, allowing them to tune different frames to suit different tracks.

In reality, massive fail, but I think it has been a fail because Ducati have been unable to build a frame to react in the way they need (or they just don't understand exactly what is needed). Secondly, I think the problem is the relationship between the rigid engine, stiff frame, and suspension (and possibly design flaws in the dimensions of the bikes).

In theory, CF frames should be the way to go.



As a compromise between Ducati's ideology, and building a bike with the required characteristics, I think Ducati should build and test a bike with a full frame, twin spar, carbon fibre frame (just like an aluminium twin spar bike, but built in CF). To make this work, they must understand exactly the required amounts of stiffness and flex required in each part of the frame, and then engage CF specialists to engineer the frame according to those specs.

If they cannot make that work, throw away the whole CF idea, and go back to either steel trellis or to aluminium twin spar.



The world is a funny place for Ducati;

They ditch their WSBK program, and an old 'has been' on an old ex factory bike wins the world championship.

They focus on MGP, with the greatest rider in history, and possibly the greatest engineer in history, and they are nowhere.

That's one way of pointing out who the problem is lol
 
Everyone has held out hope, however now its clear that they will never compete, Ducati have been well off the consistent pace for 2 years now,



Not everyone Hombre.

Read my sig. I called it all year. If anyone has watched Ducati since they first came into Moto GP and added up how slow they are at implementing change, how they consistently build a bike with distinct disadvantages at many tracks and how they have clearly fallen far behind their Japanese rivals.

Ducat has always been ..... Even in 2006 when Caparossi was winning it still was falling on its face every other week. Stoner masked it's seismic flaws.

Every week multiple people would post on the predictions thread "I think Ducati will be on the pointy end this weekend" I find PS incredibly overanalytical of every pointless detail but I am baffled that not one person here could look at the historical perspective of Ducati and even entertain the notion that this bike was completely incapable of being remotely competitive. Even after Krop came out after race 4 or so and proclaimed that the Ducati was .... and wouldnt compete all you armchair experts still continued to believe some asinine fantasy because the Golden 1 was riding it.
 
Punch #2



Quote



The second point is on the entertainment level of MotoGP: the races continue to be ugly. This should be worrisome to a lot of people.



Just got back from PI to read the usual negative stuff here. Why should it be worrisome? Next year 800's are finished.



What does Stoner say about this.........



..............when Stoner was asked whether he would miss the 800s, as he had dominated them so thoroughly. "Definitely not!" he told reporters. "I always preferred the 1000s, and I feel a lot more comfortable on them."



Yamaha and Ducati have pulled out of SBK to concentrate on motogp. Thats a good, positive sign.



CRT will take some time to get right, but soon enough the frame specialists will work it out and be competitive. Another positive.



Motogp bikes look and sound great. All different. Loud, way better than moto2. The Ducati's have a reallly smooth sound. The Honda sounds vicious.



Moto2 was great, thanks mostly to Marquez. The bikes themselves are nothing special. Sound like proddy bikes. But Marquez was amazing to watch at PI even in warm up. He had about 5 mini highsides at the same place Lorenzo crashed, but never backed off. And where he is likely heading next year? Same place Bradley Smith is heading? Oh dear, what a bleak future this sport has haha.



PI warm up was very interesting. Stoner came up behind lorenzo and passed him. At this point Lorenzo really went for it. They both stayed out the whole warm up and pretty much were racing each other, until finally Lorenzo pushed too hard. Really sorry for Lorenzo but he is is ok so thats a positive for next year.



Over on motomatters, as one reader said..............."As always another great article David. You're the world champ of motogp journos!"



2nd that!



http://motomatters.com/analysis/2011/10/17/2011_phillip_island_motogp_sunday_post_r.html
 
Carlo Pernat had some interesting words. http://www.gpone.com...-una-Honda.html



Three punches:



Punch #1



Truth is no one knows who is on the "best bike". Is it co-incidence that whenever Casey wins he is suddenly on the "best bike"?



As a generalisation one could say....



Yam = handling chassis supremo

Hon = power / drive supremo



Each will suit various tracks and rider styles at different times but both are championship capable bikes....you just need the right pilot.



Punch #2





A sentiment not popular with some fans who misrepresent the description of calling the racing "boring" or "snooze fest" or "unexciting" liking it to some crime against humanity (exaggeration for effect). They fail to distinguish the point being made and think the person describing the racing in such terms must mean they don't understand the nature of the sport (surely Carlo Pernat understands it just a little) or worse and chalk it up to tribalism (my guy isn’t winning so they are just whining). Its not a dig at any one rider; but just maybe, just maybe... the racing is actually uneventful. To those that will retort with, its because we don't appreciate the exquisite talent in which certain riders negotiate the track, I'd say, I get more pleasure from this aspect during practices, which at least they follow said riders around the entire lap. (I personally get very excited during a race, but as it progresses the outcome is a forgone conclusion. And when there is a nice little battle, I find myself frustrated that they jump to the overplayed garage's-reaction-shot just as the maneuver has been executed. )



Some fans consider it sport others consider it entertainment.....both cant always peacefully co-exist.



Punch #3









While watching this weekend’s race, a side note (yeah, after giving props to Stoner, don’t want to get jumped for not being in the moment) was the lackluster and frustrating performance of works Ducati factory. Particularly frustrating to me (bias alert) was seeing Nicky Hayden get swallowed up by a procession of riders at Phillip Island, a place where he's as good as he can be. At first I was able to rationalize when the Hondas came passing by, one by one, but when the Suzuki passed, that was a bit much for me to stomach. It may seem like Nicky was just fading due to lack of will, but riding on the knife edge is what we were watching, and we wouldn't have known until Rossi lost the front on a similar machine, giving confirmation that the edge was very sharp indeed. Now this last punch can provide multiple aspects and talking points. For me in particular, it highlights the continuation of this idea that only one rider's career must survive the Ducati black hole. It speaks again to the tier system of human importance in MotoGP politic--that is, its still stuck in the Ptolemaic view of the universe where Rossi represents Earth. The world standings have both Ducati factory teammates almost carbon copies of eachother, only 7 points apart, and with only one podium each, its a bit hard to argue the disparity of talent among the two men this year on generally similar machines (and this in a season where the updates have been decidedly one way). Which leaves me with a great desire for Ducati to get thier act together, if that means go conventional, the so be it, and get their two very talented riders mixing it up with their true peers at the front. Perhaps Pernat may be in an interesting position to comment on Ducati, since he's managed Loris Capirossi, who is now headed to retirement. We've all been tricked into thinking that we have four manufacture entries with competitive machines, but in reality, its always been about Yamaha and Honda. Perhaps this will improve once the CRT teams start to develop, time will tell.



There are other talking points this third punch provides, sure. Like the lesson of machine parity in the sport, the unsustainable costs by the factories, the spec tire situation and how it effects certain manufactures, etc. Feel free to take a stab at one of them. After all, we are just floating around personal opinions and takes about this sport we here all follow.



Cool analogy.



Rossi looked disinterested during qp/fp. Looked like he was dawdling around the track to me and in a sense the Ducati may have finally broken his spirit.



JB was also quite criticical of Rossi this week citing his "lack of useful feedback" on Australian TV coverage - the first time I have heard him openly criticise his own rider....and he also intimated during a sports editorial in the SMH that it wasn't beyond the realms of possibility that in fact Stoner is "simply a better rider".



Both scenarios seem completely plausible.



We have seen so many urban legends about Rossi/Stoner/Ducati fold under intense scrutiny over the past few years - none moreso than this past season....you can add these and many more to the list.



Maybe you were right afterall Jumks.....Nicky is equal to Rossi talent wise
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Just got back from PI to read the usual negative stuff here. Why should it be worrisome? Next year 800's are finished.

What does Stoner say about this.........

..............when Stoner was asked whether he would miss the 800s, as he had dominated them so thoroughly. "Definitely not!" he told reporters. "I always preferred the 1000s, and I feel a lot more comfortable on them."



Yamaha and Ducati have pulled out of SBK to concentrate on motogp. Thats a good, positive sign.



CRT will take some time to get right, but soon enough the frame specialists will work it out and be competitive. Another positive.

Motogp bikes look and sound great. All different. Loud, way better than moto2. The Ducati's have a reallly smooth sound. The Honda sounds vicious.



Moto2 was great, thanks mostly to Marquez. The bikes themselves are nothing special. Sound like proddy bikes. But Marquez was amazing to watch at PI even in warm up. He had about 5 mini highsides at the same place Lorenzo crashed, but never backed off. And where he is likely heading next year? Same place Bradley Smith is heading? Oh dear, what a bleak future this sport has haha.



PI warm up was very interesting. Stoner came up behind lorenzo and passed him. At this point Lorenzo really went for it. They both stayed out the whole warm up and pretty much were racing each other, until finally Lorenzo pushed too hard. Really sorry for Lorenzo but he is is ok so thats a positive for next year.



Agree 100%

I was at PI on Sunday, and no way was it boring, uninteresting, or ugly. OK, like most people at PI, I was cheering on Stoner for the win, but take Stoner out and it was a really close race with lots of good battles. Bottom line is right now, he and Lorenzo, are just better than the rest. Where were the other factory Honda's, fighting it out with Suzuki and Hayden, and I suspect Spies would have been in the same battle.

No discredit to Rossi, because I fully acknowledge his ability and achievements, (same for Hayden and Bautista) but I really believe put Lorenzo or Stoner on the Duc, or the Suzuki, and they would be a lot closer to the front.

Spies is fast, and he cannot match Lorenzo on the same bike. Most weekends, Pedro, Dovi, and Simoncelli cannot match Stoner. I really believe we have some good racing ahead, with Stoner, Lorenzo, maybe Pedro, and maybe Marquez fighting for wins.



Birdman is right, for anyone who has never seen MotoGP bikes live, at full noise, they are insane.

I hope that the sport never looses that extreme'ness, in favour of closer racing.
 
I wish they would put Stoner on the Ducati after the season is over, to get his opinion about the bike in its present state.



Or even better, let all the top riders try out the different bikes. 800 will be gone, shouldn't be too many secrets they need to keep about the bikes performance.



Just some wishful thinking
<
 
Pedrosa has won the same number of races as Lorenzo hasn't he, despite missing several races. The Honda IS the bike of 2011, the thing's a monster.
 
Pedrosa has won the same number of races as Lorenzo hasn't he, despite missing several races. The Honda IS the bike of 2011, the thing's a monster.



Gee yeah! and they both won the same amount as Stoner did on the Ducati Rossi is riding back in 2010 !!
<
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Carlo Pernat had some interesting words. http://www.gpone.com...-una-Honda.html



Three punches:



Punch #1





Actually, I'd call it punch 1a & b. Another guy making the point that if Stoner wasn’t on a Honda, Yamaha could very well be on to win the title. Food for thought for those who think Honda is all rave and Yamaha are not on par with it. For all intents and purposes Honda=Yamaha. The only difference in this year's title was the rider.



And punch 1b., for me, the more entertaining but equally true punch--- Pedro didn’t deliver despite having it all his way. Honda put all their egg in Pedro's puny basket, and they screwed themselves.



Punch #2





A sentiment not popular with some fans who misrepresent the description of calling the racing "boring" or "snooze fest" or "unexciting" liking it to some crime against humanity (exaggeration for effect). They fail to distinguish the point being made and think the person describing the racing in such terms must mean they don't understand the nature of the sport (surely Carlo Pernat understands it just a little) or worse and chalk it up to tribalism (my guy isn’t winning so they are just whining). Its not a dig at any one rider; but just maybe, just maybe... the racing is actually uneventful. To those that will retort with, its because we don't appreciate the exquisite talent in which certain riders negotiate the track, I'd say, I get more pleasure from this aspect during practices, which at least they follow said riders around the entire lap. (I personally get very excited during a race, but as it progresses the outcome is a forgone conclusion. And when there is a nice little battle, I find myself frustrated that they jump to the overplayed garage's-reaction-shot just as the maneuver has been executed. )



Punch #3









While watching this weekend’s race, a side note (yeah, after giving props to Stoner, don’t want to get jumped for not being in the moment) was the lackluster and frustrating performance of works Ducati factory. Particularly frustrating to me (bias alert) was seeing Nicky Hayden get swallowed up by a procession of riders at Phillip Island, a place where he's as good as he can be. At first I was able to rationalize when the Hondas came passing by, one by one, but when the Suzuki passed, that was a bit much for me to stomach. It may seem like Nicky was just fading due to lack of will, but riding on the knife edge is what we were watching, and we wouldn't have known until Rossi lost the front on a similar machine, giving confirmation that the edge was very sharp indeed. Now this last punch can provide multiple aspects and talking points. For me in particular, it highlights the continuation of this idea that only one rider's career must survive the Ducati black hole. It speaks again to the tier system of human importance in MotoGP politic--that is, its still stuck in the Ptolemaic view of the universe where Rossi represents Earth. The world standings have both Ducati factory teammates almost carbon copies of eachother, only 7 points apart, and with only one podium each, its a bit hard to argue the disparity of talent among the two men this year on generally similar machines (and this in a season where the updates have been decidedly one way). Which leaves me with a great desire for Ducati to get thier act together, if that means go conventional, the so be it, and get their two very talented riders mixing it up with their true peers at the front. Perhaps Pernat may be in an interesting position to comment on Ducati, since he's managed Loris Capirossi, who is now headed to retirement. We've all been tricked into thinking that we have four manufacture entries with competitive machines, but in reality, its always been about Yamaha and Honda. Perhaps this will improve once the CRT teams start to develop, time will tell.



There are other talking points this third punch provides, sure. Like the lesson of machine parity in the sport, the unsustainable costs by the factories, the spec tire situation and how it effects certain manufactures, etc. Feel free to take a stab at one of them. After all, we are just floating around personal opinions and takes about this sport we here all follow.



Nicky and Rossi both ought to sue for divorce from Ducati. Next year they're gonna be getting passed by CRT teams.



Think of the sponsorship possibilities with Rossi and Hayden themselves on an Aprilia engined CRT team. Ain't neither of them boys gonna be on no Hondas next year. They're all spoken for.
 
Congratulations to Casey on a well-deserved title, he's managed to pull himself away from the bad practice behavior to be a stand out talent- this has even impressed me......
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Good post talpa, things have come to a pretty pass with you praising stoner and me being hammered for complaining about the formula
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