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Ideas on MOTO GP

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DRILL

Joined Jun 2005
5K Posts | 1+
Ok,I`d like to use this thread for all of us to give our thoughts on how to bring the excitement to our sport.There are other post`s that could be possibly mergered in with this one (sorry admin
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).

My ideas:

First off,to avoid a clash of rules and regs between GP and SBK,I suggest that WSBK is bought into the lines of BSB in 2008 ie: one small step above Superstock spec which gave good racing and an affordable budget for the teams.
I can`t see that going down well with certain bodies in WSBK but I really can`t see the recession improving quickly,hence the BSB example.Reasons for this will become apparent below.

Now!MOTO GP

Most of the following is based on cost cutting but still gives scope for excellent competition;

ENGINES-1000cc 4`s with no traction control,no launch control and an ECU with only small adjustments allowed.No fly by wire throttle,after all racing used to be about the skill of the riders wrist.
I`ve also drawn heavily on WCM`s ideas using prototype heads ,gearbox and crankcases BUT the cylinder block must resemble that which we see on the equivilent road bike which i`ll explain in a bit.

FRAMES-prototype a la MOTO2.

TYRES-keep the control tyre.

This is a way I see of getting all four Jap manu`s to invest in the sport as well as getting the punters to relate to the particular marque in their road bike range.In the case of Ducati,they would have scope to bring in the 990 Desmodicidi road bike OR use the big twin and run at a lower weight to be decided by Dorna.
I`m also toying with the idea of running triples with a lower weight too as it could bring in at least one more manufacturor.
When I say Jap fours,I mean (again a WCM idea) the engine would obviously come from the current 10000cc road bike GSXR,ZX10,RI and Fireblade but the Manus would also be required to provide at least two bikes for lease to other teams which would swell the race grid for the good.
I do beleive that these regs will avoid a big wrangle between GP and WSBK and ensure good close racing returns to the circuits,lets face it ,a grid of 17 is just diabolical at the moment.
And before I sign off I`d also like you to consider the possibility of running 800cc TWO strokes in the same class (gotcha there Arrab
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).Manu`s can then draw on frame tech from these last coupla seasons and indeed use the old frames as well,only trouble is that 2 stroke clean burn is still in its relative infancy but it will rear its head in the future imo.
Thanks for perusing my waffle
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and feel free to pick its bones as I know there are far more clever people on THE forum but I felt I had to voice my opinion for my sport of passion.

Your ideas/opinions please!
CRAIG
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Otis Driftwood @ Apr 10 2010, 04:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>ENGINES-1000cc 4`s with no traction control,no launch control and an ECU with only small adjustments allowed.No fly by wire throttle,after all racing used to be about the skill of the riders wrist.

Impossible to police, unless you mandate carbs and mechanical points. ECUs are hackable, and will be hacked. Any attempt to limit electronics will meet with implacable opposition from the MSMA, who are likely to pull out completely. Given the vast amount of money they pour into the sport, this would not necessarily be a good thing.

Electronics are here to stay, whether you or I like it or not.
 
Motorcycling is a diverse collection of individual pursuits so it's difficult to accept that the technically dynamic 990cc era has been replaced by the stagnant 800cc (which is set to be replaced by the completely stagnant 81mm 1000cc formula). Only one tire company supplies tires. All of the engines are nearly identical (none of the technical information is released). The riders can only ride one line with one basic style.

Imo, MotoGP needs a complete reboot to make it accessible to the fans. The engines should be less difficult to make, and performance should be controlled by capacity and rev-limit so the manufacturers can build whatever config or firing order they want. Rev-limits also allow the performance of the bikes to progress at a very stable rate that prohibits constant interference from Dorna. Fuel is unlimited. Engines are weight limited. Minimum weight determined by bike/rider combined. Increase the minimum dimensions slightly over a series of years so the bikes are more relevant to the bike buying public. Engines should be homologated and distributed to private teams via lease contracts (organized by Dorna). Information about the engines should be divulged to the public by regulatory mandate--everything from bore, stroke, cylinder count, valve-count, valve diameter, lift, duration, peak rear wheel horspower, v-angle etc. The super secret stuff like cylinder head design, combustion efficiency, internal friction, piston crown design, operating temperatures, compression ratio, etc--all of that should be known only by the factory.

Add accessory awards (including fan awards) to the end-of-season gala so more teams get recognition and publicity. Have a top privateer team award. Have an award for the most efficient team that is awarded via some kind of formula (points per budget ratio, total personnel, etc.). Create reliable engine awards by setting a service life interval, sealing some of the manufacturers engine at their direction, and then giving awards to the manufacturers engine that scores the most points and meets the service life criteria (this would probably be run at the privateer level). Even add a fan award for the most beautiful bike as voted on by the motogp.com subscribers. Best helmet design etc.

The sport is not engaging at all. The only engaging part of MotoGP has been Valentino Rossi and his ability to communicate the thrill of riding and the thrill of racing to fans. Rossi hates the 800s and he's rarely involved in any racing these days which is an enormous waste of his fan appeal. The engineers have rarely/never engaged the public with their craft.

Unfortunately, they can't improve the sport b/c the MSMA are unwilling to change the format or the formula. Until the formula is improved, they will make no progress.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 10 2010, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Impossible to police, unless you mandate carbs and mechanical points. ECUs are hackable, and will be hacked. Any attempt to limit electronics will meet with implacable opposition from the MSMA, who are likely to pull out completely. Given the vast amount of money they pour into the sport, this would not necessarily be a good thing.

Electronics are here to stay, whether you or I like it or not.

You have to ask yourself why the MSMA will never allow the sport to return to its "roots".

Imo, the manufacturers will never return the sport to its roots b/c they don't understand the sport or why people watch it. They only understand a very narrow interpretation of the sport that allows them to maximize the amount of money they pull out of the parent company. The MSMA believe the point of the sport is to beat one another to a pulp by spending massive amounts of money on electronics, engine technology, and tire technology as they can possibly afford. No matter how badly they want the sport to work this way, it is moving in the opposite direction. The tires are controlled. A litany of technologies or design elements are banned. The testing schedule and practice sessions have been gutted which means there is less for Dorna to sell and less time for the MSMA to develop. All of this has happened b/c the MSMA are stuck on stupid.

When they finally reinvent the reason for which MotoGP exists, lots of things will be possible, imo.
 
I certainly agree with a change to more superstock for wsbk, especially taking into account the speed and handling of modern superbikes available to the public. This would make it far more relevant.


I don't mind most of the motogp suggestions, however there should be some rider aids-far less than currently.

Also IMO the tyre war is essential to push the boundaries, especially with the removal of the majority of electronics. Seeing bridgestone basically halting development in both f1 and motogp, and pirelli the same in wsbk is not at all surprising. The tyre war also adds a lot to the entertainment factor, certainly now after a season of control tyre in motogp and in direct contrast to the desired result we have arguably a more spread out field.

I'm optimistic that the changes earmarked for the following years will return more consistent entertaining 'close' racing.........

And mickm......'you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one'
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Every time I hear the cry "what is wrong with MotoGP" I think it comes from someone who really doesn't like MotoGP. Every single thing that you can come up with other than wide open competition makes it worse. It is either MotoGP or it is not. I actually think that it is unsustainable in the long term but while it is here, I love it.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Apr 11 2010, 12:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Every time I hear the cry "what is wrong with MotoGP" I think it comes from someone who really doesn't like MotoGP. Every single thing that you can come up with other than wide open competition makes it worse. It is either MotoGP or it is not. I actually think that it is unsustainable in the long term but while it is here, I love it.

Why do you continue to defend an archaic commercial game that has nothing to do with technological progress or engineering? Horsepower per liter is not technological progress b/c it has nothing to do with combustion efficiency or mean piston speeds or mean effective cylinder pressure or anything else. It's just a superfluous, uber-expensive commercial game that the major manufacturers have created to separate "the men from the boys". Why do they need this game? b/c all of the manufacturers can buy the latest engine technology, but not all of them can afford it.

Almost every racing series on earth has killed the hp per liter game. MotoGP is basically rev-limited by fuel and engine reliability. These limitations have created another superfluous and expensive game that emphasizes the importance of software engineers. Why? b/c not everyone can afford to field an IT department for MotoGP.

If you want "wide-open" mechanical engineering, you're going to have to accept that the pointless engineering games must give up the ghost.
 
A MotoGP with only Jap 4 cyl engines like moto2!? What about Ducati, do you want Ducati to pull out of GP as Aprilia did? -- it is of course unacceptable for a non-Jap manufacturer to race with a Jap engine and be demoted to chassis assembler status...
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Enforcing a mechanically wired throttle is the one change that would be easy to implement, and have an effect. I mean, just take out all servo actuators from throttle control.

With a purely mechanical throttle, the only way for traction control to remedy a rider's error would be to cut the ignition, imho; if that is true we would still have the safety but the ignition cut would adversely affect the lap time. Now with fly-by-wire throttle errors may not cost a rider anything is terms of lap time, because the computer optimizes his wrist's input when 'wrong' -- which is not right for the sport.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 11 2010, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>A MotoGP with only Jap 4 cyl engines like moto2!? What about Ducati, do you want Ducati to pull out of GP as Aprilia did? -- it is of course unacceptable for a non-Jap manufacturer to race with a Jap engine and be demoted to chassis assembler status...
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Enforcing a mechanically wired throttle is the one change that would be easy to implement, and have an effect. I mean, just take out all servo actuators from throttle control.

With a purely mechanical throttle, the only way for traction control to remedy a rider's error would be to cut the ignition, imho; if that is true we would still have the safety but the ignition cut would adversely affect the lap time. Now with fly-by-wire throttle errors may not cost a rider anything is terms of lap time, because the computer optimizes his wrist's input when 'wrong' -- which is not right for the sport.

I did actually state that Ducati could run the V4 and I also forgot to include the entrance of Aprillia`s V4.
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Some good stuff being laid down here,keep it coming as there just may be a solution from it all.Thanks.
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I just asked Shuhei Nakamoto - big boss of HRC - about the use of electronics in MotoGP. He said they learn an awful lot from the electronics in MotoGP, which has direct application in road bikes, in terms of throttle control and even traction control. He said MotoGP would be a lot less interesting for them as a manufacturer if there were limits put on electronics.
 
I don't think ditching the technology we already have is the right course of action. Prototype racing is all about new technology's. What the sport need's is less new stupid ill thought out rules. You don't need me to list them as im sure we can all think of a few.
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 11 2010, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I just asked Shuhei Nakamoto - big boss of HRC - about the use of electronics in MotoGP. He said they learn an awful lot from the electronics in MotoGP, which has direct application in road bikes, in terms of throttle control and even traction control. He said MotoGP would be a lot less interesting for them as a manufacturer if there were limits put on electronics.

I hope electronics do stay, I actually think they make things safer and they lead to better racing.

But Honda can develop electronics technology at the test track. They are simply pigeonholing MotoGP as a place to develop certain cutting edge technologies. The harder the push MotoGP down the pigeonhole, the more their grasp on the sport slips as they chuck shareholder money into the abyss.

MotoGP doesn't have to exist as a place for the MSMA to develop NASA technologies. They can just as easily use MotoGP as a viral marketing campaign, or a mechanical-only engineering contest, or as a technology social network, or simply as an entertainment industry to increase the profile of their brand.

The MSMA are very narrow minded and by forcing MotoGP to be something the fans, sponsors, and commercial rights holders do not want; the MSMA are expediting their own extinction. Kinda like the print media you've spoken about on your site. The only thing they can do is make veiled threats to the people who represent change. Whether the MSMA like it or not, the fans WILL get what they want from someone. When the MSMA understand they can't fight with the fans, the sport will be opened to all kinds of changes. I just wonder if the MSMA will ever get there.
 
The idea of making WSBK more of a 'superstock'series is great idea. Im sick of hearing SBK commentators saying JT's R1 is the same bike you & i can buy of the show room floor. Lets face it SBK R1 bear's little resemblance to the production bike apart from the tunning fork decal on the tank, and this goes for the majority of the bikes on the WSBK grid.
That being said, de-tunning WSBK to more of a superstock class and the use of production based motors in motogp makes sense. It will keep cost down for both series and make it easy for getting sponsors.
So my idea of what motogp class would be:
-prototype chassis,1000cc capacity production based engines( what ever the bore size is) No fuel limit, Ban pneumatic valve springs, open to tyre manfactures, electronics are to stay. These are a couple of ideas to get FULL grids and more manfactures in the class.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Oniker @ Apr 12 2010, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The idea of making WSBK more of a 'superstock'series is great idea. Im sick of hearing SBK commentators saying JT's R1 is the same bike you & i can buy of the show room floor. Lets face it SBK R1 bear's little resemblance to the production bike apart from the tunning fork decal on the tank, and this goes for the majority of the bikes on the WSBK grid.
That being said, de-tunning WSBK to more of a superstock class and the use of production based motors in motogp makes sense. It will keep cost down for both series and make it easy for getting sponsors.
So my idea of what motogp class would be:
-prototype chassis,1000cc capacity production based engines( what ever the bore size is) No fuel limit, Ban pneumatic valve springs, open to tyre manfactures, electronics are to stay. These are a couple of ideas to get FULL grids and more manfactures in the class.
I don't think we should be banning components that make race bikes faster. valve springs have been around for donkeys years and have serious limitation. Its having fewer rules that limit power is the key to more exciting racing and lead's to better technology being passed down to road bikes. surely that's why manufactures race in this prototype series ?

I think the tracks play a large part in excitement and close racing. Some tracks always give good racing and some don't. I also think we go to the same tracks for to many consecutive years. Rider's get to familiar with them. If they mixed it up a bit more i think it would be more exciting and interesting for us and keep the rider's on there toe's having to learn more tracks. There are plenty of great circuits around the world.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Apr 12 2010, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think we should be banning components that make race bikes faster. valve springs have been around for donkeys years and have serious limitation. Its having fewer rules that limit power is the key to more exciting racing and lead's to better technology being passed down to road bikes. surely that's why manufactures race in this prototype series ?

I think the tracks play a large part in excitement and close racing. Some tracks always give good racing and some don't. I also think we go to the same tracks for to many consecutive years. Rider's get to familiar with them. If they mixed it up a bit more i think it would be more exciting and interesting for us and keep the rider's on there toe's having to learn more tracks. There are plenty of great circuits around the world.
Here here! Great idea!
 
The race today was pretty awesome. Yes, if Stoner didn't .... up, he'd have ran away with a 10+ second win, but the racing outside that was fun.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Oniker @ Apr 12 2010, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The idea of making WSBK more of a 'superstock'series is great idea. Im sick of hearing SBK commentators saying JT's R1 is the same bike you & i can buy of the show room floor.

If you happen to have a couple of hundred grand and your local showroom just happens to be Yamaha's racing base in Italy, that's true...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Apr 12 2010, 10:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think we should be banning components that make race bikes faster. valve springs have been around for donkeys years and have serious limitation. Its having fewer rules that limit power is the key to more exciting racing and lead's to better technology being passed down to road bikes. surely that's why manufactures race in this prototype series ?

I think the tracks play a large part in excitement and close racing. Some tracks always give good racing and some don't. I also think we go to the same tracks for to many consecutive years. Rider's get to familiar with them. If they mixed it up a bit more i think it would be more exciting and interesting for us and keep the rider's on there toe's having to learn more tracks. There are plenty of great circuits around the world.

Pneumatic valve springs will never make to production thats why i threw that in. I agree with tracks part, they should really mix it up
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Oniker @ Apr 12 2010, 02:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pneumatic valve springs will never make to production thats why i threw that in. I agree with tracks part, they should really mix it up
Why wont they ?
 

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