"I like them all"... Truer words never spoken...

michaelm said:

Gaz makes a similar point in the post following yours.



I was in agreement with RD and thought VR was in the right in regard to that incident, since a successful pass would have involved forcing Rossi off the track. But I can see why MM might have considered his move to be legitimate, given similar moves by him at Jerez 2013 and Rossi on Gibernau at Jerez 2005 were allowed.

Click to expand...

I personally think Rossi had the move through the gravel planned at the first hint of contact. The contact was minimal, but Rossi's pre planned reaction made it seem like more than it was. I wrote that off as Rossi being clever and really didnt make a to do about it. Had i been Marc, i would be pissed at RD for not seeing the move for what it was. The Argentina incident was Marc being stupid. Even though the manuever Rossi used was kind of harsh, Marquez was a ....... for racing Rossi after he had given up a 4 second lead and was obviously riding on shredded tires.

Jumkie said:

I got a similar impression, and worse when he presented his "theory for Rossi wining his 10th" to supposedly dedicate it to the late Marco Simoncelli! I personally thought that was the lowest point of this piece and flagrantly preposterous considering what Rossi did at Sepang no less. .

Click to expand...

Yep, wasnt going to touch that one but you are right. Rossi wanted to dedicate his 10th title to a guy who died at Sepang, by wrecking an opponent at Sepang. Who knows, maybe that twisted .... is that demented

povol said:

Yep, wasnt going to touch that one but you are right. Rossi wanted to dedicate his 10th title to a guy who died at Sepang, by wrecking an opponent at Sepang. Who knows, maybe that twisted .... is that demented

Click to expand...

Would have been a nice touch to dedicate it to Simoncelli had he won, but Oxley is being disingenuous if he thinks Valentino was doing it to an overwhelming degree for anyone other than himself, not that there is anything wrong with him being keen to win another title of course.

Jumkie said:

I'm not even going to entertain pointing out X amount of passes in X laps, as if this carries any meaning. If Rossi didn't want to get into a scrap, he could have followed for a couple of laps to see what might materialize.

Click to expand...

i completely agree since it wouldve been not only the smart move, but every sane human wouldve done the same, but in rossi'e defense and not that its a good defense(but im pretty sure this is what he is gonna say), marquez was not there just race him hard, he was there to slow him down,so if he would stick behind him, marquez wouldve slowed down just to,....

JPSLotus said:

I actually believe Rossi took out MM in Argentina. It was so subtle that no one picked up on it.


Assen was a calculated move by Rossi to let MM run into him. ... I knew MM was going to attempt the overtake in that final chicane, and I knew it, surely a guy like Rossi knew it as well.

Click to expand...

about argentina,tbh it wasnt that subtle, pretty obvious if you ask me since he take a look behind before making that move, ofcourse he did it intentionally and in this case,yes he wanted to take marquez out. morally wrong? yes, but why not, since you know, he knows he can get away with it(RD usually favors the one who is in front), ps it was a very dangerous and kinda stupid move by marquez to stick around that close cuz in any split second they both can go down.(again in rossi'e defense it was a self defense ).

and about assen, ofcourse he kneww there is gonna a be launch, but i dont think he knew its gonna be that aggressive and he didnt think marquez can come THAT close. and when he saw marquez in the corner he went into him on pure adrenaline as if we either both crash or, huh maybe not: --->>

povol said:

I personally think Rossi had the move through the gravel planned at the first hint of contact. The contact was minimal, but Rossi's pre planned reaction made it seem like more than it was. I wrote that off as Rossi being clever and really didnt make a to do about it.

Click to expand...

and RD cant do anything about cuz again he was in front(even slightly, he was the first one who arrived at the cornet).

the final thing is, both riders are pretty much a bully, and make things go their own way no matter what, even if it means commiting a CRIME, and to be honest i dont find anything wrong with that, cuz "nothing is wrong unless you get caught" , the difference is that rossi is a better criminal( for lack of a better word), and it has nothing to do with experience cuz he has been like this from the start.

the incident at sepang was pretty much the same scenario and came from their riding style, but this time they both tried to bully but with too much emotion, the move by both of them was completely dumb(1. rossi taking him well wide 2. marquez continuing to push in when he mustve known if there is gonna be contact he is gonna be the victim.(and no, imo rossi didnt want to take him down this time, just wanted fk with him and he didnt think marquez would continue to push inside against him))

since JPS and some others keep insisting lorenzo or marquez are faster(even tho it might not be the right thread but i dont wanna post another one somewhere else), i dont read too much into press since its about the news and news is salable commodity and they need something to say but you guys should know better and im pretty sure you do, these 4 guys if the circumstance are the same, can carry the same pace during the RACE, its pretty stupid to compare laptime ehen there is a 10s gap from the front and 4s from behind(why would you push, you just gonna hang around at that point), and weve seen in other races when they are in contention with each other they can match the pace.

feros said:

i c
since JPS and some others keep insisting lorenzo or marquez are faster(even tho it might not be the right thread but i dont wanna post another one somewhere else), i dont read too much into press since its about the news and news is salable commodity and they need something to say but you guys should know better and im pretty sure you do, these 4 guys if the circumstance are the same, can carry the same pace during the RACE, its pretty stupid to compare laptime ehen there is a 10s gap from the front and 4s from behind(why would you push, you just gonna hang around at that point), and weve seen in other races when they are in contention with each other they can match the pace.

Click to expand...

On lap 2 of 30 in Valencia, when everyone still had fresh tires and everything to race for, Rossi cleared a group of riders and had clear track with nothing in his way to the next rider [Bradley Smith] who was 1.3 seconds in front of him. Rossi proceeded to run his 2 fastest laps of the race in that clear track, but was still 4 tenths per lap down to the pace Lorenzo was running. There were a few times this year when Rossi had the pace to run with the top guys, but overall, he doesnt have the pace week in week out that Lorenzo and Marquez show.

povol said:

On lap 2 of 30 in Valencia, when everyone still had fresh tires and everything to race for, Rossi cleared a group of riders and had clear track with nothing in his way to the next rider [Bradley Smith] who was 1.3 seconds in front of him. Rossi proceeded to run his 2 fastest laps of the race in that clear track, but was still 4 tenths per lap down to the pace Lorenzo was running. There were a few times this year when Rossi had the pace to run with the top guys, but overall, he doesnt have the pace week in week out that Lorenzo and Marquez show.

Click to expand...

You're missing the point: of course Rossi didn't have the pace to win the championship and that is precisely why the other riders are such nasty little pricks for not helping him.

with respect, i have to disagree,

im not just talking about this race(but even in this one if he was in victory contention there is no way you can say he couldnt match the pace at the end,) different tracks, different conditions,... he might not have had the pace during Q and FP sessions****,but during the race even with ones that he was running 5th and lorenzo had the clear track in front of him, i remember him sometimes lapping faster,but one or two laps really doesnt matter, its the pace during the whole race that matter which you know a lot better than me, im not arguing about the consistency in pace of lorenzo, but tbh in the whole season different consequences demand different action, you cant just bluntly say someones faster.and as far as i can see every time he was in contention with those two he couldve match them.

****this was rossi's biggest mistake during the whole season,treating Q and P sessions the same as the race(specially the first half of the season)wich cost him his bad grid position-->not being able to fight for victory and just fighting for podium(most of the times)----> costing him the championship, i really think if he didnt make this mistake and take those Q2 more seriously lorenzo wouldnt have won those 4 in row.

povol said:

I personally think Rossi had the move through the gravel planned at the first hint of contact. .

Click to expand...

Agree Pov, and I recall posting that somewhere at the time.

VR had a 'plan B' if needed and knew exactly what and where he would go. MM gave him that need so VR took full advantage and for that I say now (as I did then), more credit to him as it shows both a ruthlessness to commit to the corner knowing what may come but also the forethought to have that 'plan B'

feros said:

with respect, i have to disagree,

im not just talking about this race(but even in this one if he was in victory contention there is no way you can say he couldnt match the pace at the end,) different tracks, different conditions,... he might not have had the pace during Q and FP sessions****,but during the race even with ones that he was running 5th and lorenzo had the clear track in front of him, i remember him sometimes lapping faster,but one or two laps really doesnt matter, its the pace during the whole race that matter which you know a lot better than me, im not arguing about the consistency in pace of lorenzo, but tbh in the whole season different consequences demand different action, you cant just bluntly say someones faster.and as far as i can see every time he was in contention with those two he couldve match them.

****this was rossi's biggest mistake during the whole season,treating Q and P sessions the same as the race(specially the first half of the season)wich cost him his bad grid position-->not being able to fight for victory and just fighting for podium(most of the times)----> costing him the championship, i really think if he didnt make this mistake and take those Q2 more seriously lorenzo wouldnt have won those 4 in row.

Click to expand...

You give every indication of being an honest and rational Rossi fan, and good luck to you.

I can't agree with all your arguments though. Absolutely implicit in Rossi's whinging about the last 3 races was a belief that MM was faster than both him and Lorenzo, and hence able to interfere, in his view unfairly , with the championship result. Neither he, nor with respect you, can have it both ways.

Being faster includes qualifying and the early laps, which have always been a factor in race results which cannot be dismissed just because their influence doesn't suit Rossi. VR has just been flat out faster in a few races, of course in the wet, but also in dry races suited by the "hard" tyre. Otherwise, he has mainly relied on catching Jorge late because Jorge has had tyre problems or visor problems, although I have some suspicion the visor problems were really tyre problems as well. If Valentino gets a late race advantage by not going hard early which negates the advantage of Jorge's early race pace, good for him, but I can't see why he should be entitled to have the rest of the field not race him on his way forward as he seemed to be arguing should be the case in the late season races.

JPSLotus said:

Is there there a rule against racing someone hard?

No.

So what does it matter if he raced him hard.

Click to expand...

I didn't say that, mate. Please don't misquote me.

michaelm said:

You give every indication of being an honest and rational Rossi fan, and good luck to you.

I can't agree with all your arguments though. Absolutely implicit in Rossi's whinging about the last 3 races was a belief that MM was faster than both him and Lorenzo, and hence able to interfere, in his view unfairly , with the championship result. Neither he, nor with respect you, can have it both ways.

Being faster includes qualifying and the early laps, which have always been a factor in race results which cannot be dismissed just because their influence doesn't suit Rossi. VR has just been flat out faster in a few races, of course in the wet, but also in dry races suited by the "hard" tyre. Otherwise, he has mainly relied on catching Jorge late because Jorge has had tyre problems or visor problems, although I have some suspicion the visor problems were really tyre problems as well. If Valentino gets a late race advantage by not going hard early which negates the advantage of Jorge's early race pace, good for him, but I can't see why he should be entitled to have the rest of the field not race him on his way forward as he seemed to be arguing should be the case in the late season races.

Click to expand...

ok, maybe being faster has different meaning to me, its not sprint, its more of marathon tbh, of course every one of these 4 can set a blistering 1 or 2 lap(like marquez sometime does) and break away in front and break every record and etc... but is it a necessary risk to take?!!! no, not really, to me being fast means being fast through out the whole race, tire management,heat,whether ,... all comes to play,and these riders have different style of riding too, im not taking anything away from lorenzo cuz he has done a magnificent job at being consistently fast, but what im saying is if push comes to shove and these 4 ppl have to race each other , they all can carry the same amount of pace.

lots ppl are saying lorenzo won the championship cuz he was the fastest and rossi couldnt match his pace, what im saying is that its not that simple and it doesnt hurt to see things from different perspective,

* lorenzo won the championship cuz he was the fastest,imo no, he won because of his consistence pace during most of the races but one more important thing was rossi's mistake OUTSIDE the RACE, which gave lorenzo the edge, and that doesnt just mean press conference or mind games or these bs,it means Q and P sessions as well,.. did he deserve to win it? absolutely.

* rossi might say marquez cost me the championship, nope,somebody has to tell him championship was yours lose, and you lost it beacase of your mistakes outside the race cuz imo its very hard to find false note in rossi'e races during the whole season.

about the first part of your post; he says marquez was faster than us in PI and hondas are better in valencia(and stuff like that), which he kinda have to do that if he wants to justify his STUPID accusations.

and about your last part of arguement; have you really heard him saying those words? dont think so, its just implied that way (imo)

as far as fan goes, i really dont care much, i like this sport and i enjoy racing of course. but do i enjoy watching rossi's race more than others ? yes,do i respect him as a RACER? yes, but do i respect him as person? not really.

feros said:

ok, maybe being faster has different meaning to me, its not sprint, its more of marathon tbh, of course every one of these 4 can set a blistering 1 or 2 lap(like marquez sometime does) and break away in front and break every record and etc... but is it a necessary risk to take?!!! no, not really, to me being fast means being fast through out the whole race, tire management,heat,whether ,... all comes to play,and these riders have different style of riding too, im not taking anything away from lorenzo cuz he has done a magnificent job at being consistently fast, but what im saying is if push comes to shove and these 4 ppl have to race each other , they all can carry the same amount of pace.

lots ppl are saying lorenzo won the championship cuz he was the fastest and rossi couldnt match his pace, what im saying is that its not that simple and it doesnt hurt to see things from different perspective,

* lorenzo won the championship cuz he was the fastest,imo no, he won because of his consistence pace during most of the races but one more important thing was rossi's mistake OUTSIDE the RACE, which gave lorenzo the edge, and that doesnt just mean press conference or mind games or these bs,it means Q and P sessionsand etc,.. did he deserve to win it? absolutely.

* rossi might say marquez cost me the championship, nope,somebody has to tell him championship was yours lose, and you lost it beacase of your mistakes.

about the first part of your post; i dont really think rossi believe that himself, he is just trying justify his STUPID accusations.

and about your last part of arguement; have you really heard him saying those words? dont think so, its just implied that way by the media(imo)

as far as fan goes, i really dont care much, i like this sport and i enjoy racing of course. but do i enjoy watching rossi's race more than others ? yes,do i respect him as a RACER? yes, but do i respect him as person? not really.

Click to expand...

I should add we are talking about a 22 year old MM and a 28 year old JL being marginally faster than a 36 year old Rossi if they were faster.

What annoyed me as someone who was fairly strongly supporting Jorge this season was not the Sepang race but the pre-race press conference, and reports which seem to have now come from a number of sources including Kropotkin that he had questioned Dani Pedrosa as to why he had raced him so hard at Aragon, and less well sourced rumours he had spoken privately to Iannone about the PI race, which seemed in keeping with his attitude in the Sepang press conference and later that day with the Italian press.

Interesting read, thanks chaps (I mean the posts more than the original article).

As I have said in another thread, search the internet high and low for comments on the Phillip Island race between 25th October and Thursday morning 29th October before the now famous Rossi comments in the press conference. You will not find anyone or any post anywhere commenting on Marquez' pace in that race. Not even journalists close to the paddock mentioned any whispers, ANYTHING unusual about Marquez pace.

Then suddenly, moments after Rossi makes statements saying Marquez was impeding him, many armchair experts proclaim their god was right and that it was 'obvious' he was impeding Rossi. If it were so obvious from the race footage, why did not one of the millions of people watching the race live on October 25th make any mention of it?

I'm still unsure of Sepang, whether Marquez was racing Rossi hard for position or to an extent messing with him and I'll never know for sure just like most of us. However what I do know is if I went to any competitor I know and basically called them a cheat in front of the worlds press, I'd be sure as .... they would take it out on me on track.

What people forget is ROSSI started ALL of this. He has continually used mind games and his crazed fanbase to his advantage when it comes to racing rivals amongst other things, and this time it completely backfired on him. You don't piss someone off who has nothing to lose when you have a championship at stake. If he had quietly spoke to Marquez just as he did with Pedrosa and Iannone then none of this would have happened, though I still suspect that Lorenzo would have won the championship.

As Jumkie said months ago. This championship was Rossi's to lose and not only has he lost it, but he has seemed to lose his head too.

Also an interesting article here, going over what the author predicted at the start of the season but also covers the Sepang/Valencia controversy:

So That Happened ? Looking Back the 2015 MotoGP Season | Trunk Talk

#22 said:

Also an interesting article here, going over what the author predicted at the start of the season but also covers the Sepang/Valencia controversy:

So That Happened ? Looking Back the 2015 MotoGP Season | Trunk Talk

Click to expand...

Geez there are some good reads there.

Have to say (and no doubt this will not make some happy) but his explanations are entirely logical and I expect them to be 100% correct but then, he says what many of us are saying.

Thanks 22.

#22 said:

I'm still unsure of Sepang, whether Marquez was racing Rossi hard for position or to an extent messing with him and I'll never know for sure just like most of us.

Click to expand...

In respect of PI, if the allegations of Rossi and his largely in'doc'trinated fanbase are correct, then Marc spent the entire race toying with him, only to return to business when he got bored and dispense with Lorenzo on the last lap for the hell of it.

Apart from suggesting that the maladies afflicting the 2015 RCV were pretty much sorted, around PI - a true racers circuit - that takes serious talent and hardly augers well for either of them next year.

Arrabbiata1 said:

In respect of PI, if the allegations of Rossi and his largely in'doc'trinated fanbase are correct, then Marc spent the entire race toying with him, only to return to business when he got bored and dispense with Lorenzo on the last lap for the hell of it.

Apart from suggesting that the maladies afflicting the 2015 RCV were pretty much sorted, around PI - a true racers circuit - that takes serious talent and hardly augers well for either of them next year.

Click to expand...

That's the thing, if what Rossi has contended is true then it is all over for about the next 10 years.

Dani Pedrosa's pace at Sepang was encouraging from the point of view of there not being a decade long total eclipse of the field by MM, but I guess Dani has shown such pace in previous years against peak Rossi, peak Lorenzo, and peak Stoner on the same bike for that matter, just not consistently.

#22 said:

Also an interesting article here, going over what the author predicted at the start of the season but also covers the Sepang/Valencia controversy:

So That Happened ? Looking Back the 2015 MotoGP Season | Trunk Talk

Click to expand...

thanks for the article. Decent turn of phrase on Trunkman.