Honda's KTM Killer

Rumours/information is continuing to spread that Honda will make a much more powerful engine for next year, effectively subsidising teams as the cost of the engine will be much greater than the 12,000 euro price limit.


 


This is in response to an impression that KTM went against the spirit of the rules by balancing engine costs that were well above 12,000 euros with the cost of a bike package.


 


http://www.motomatters.com/analysis/2013/09/28/2013_aragon_motogp_saturday_round_up_on_.html


 


So, could next year's championship be mostly decided by the competition between the engine suppliers?

We're trying to find out more. The NSF was Honda trying to supply "affordable" entry level GP bikes to the various series around the place. They were already double what an RS125 would cost you new....so it'll be interesting to see whether this engine is a replacement or a supplement to the existing effort. ....... four-strokes...

Originally I thought Honda had a certain amount of sour grapes concerning their Moto3 effort. After reading more information, I must admit that I'm now more of the opinion that Honda followed the spirit of the rules, and KTM may not have. I don't blame Mahindra for anything they've done as they've found themselves in a particular environment, and adapted to it. And in any case I don't know exactly where they stand in relation to the spirit of the rules. BTW: this opinion is not so firm that a good counter argument cannot change it.


 


So in some ways, I'd like to see Honda strike back. However, I feel that some young riders may have their careers blighted  by being on the wrong bike at the wrong time. And hence I feel it would have been better if this situation hadn't arisen in the first place.


 


I wasn't aware of the prices, and am disappointed (but not surprised) that the prices of the Moto3 bikes are so much higher than the 125s.

Agreed. Honda's lack of competitiveness has really stuffed the field up - though having a crap bike has actually increased the regard for Miller's performance this year.


 


Honda getting entry level bikes out there is a good thing. That they are more expensive than 2-strokes doesn't excuse the likes of KTM making them eye-wateringly expensive. I don't have much problem with it at GP level, but at national/state level it's no way to encourage young riders to get used to a GP chassis/class. The difference between a new NSF and KTM is something like $25K v $70-80K....(though at the PI MRRDA round, I believe the moneybags KTM got murdered by an old TZ125) 


 


But the main thing is that parts are hideously expensive. If you visit the FIM website, they have the homologated parts for KTM/Honda/Mahindra listed along with prices. It is frightening. Well, it is frightening when compared to what it cost to keep an RS/TZ125 on track for a season.

Well, I basically agree that the costs are too high. But I wouldn't say that KTM (or Mahindra) are acting against the 'spirit of the rules'. If anything, then this spirit wasn't properly cemented in the rules. You cannot blame one competitor - in particular a manufacturer throwing his factory effort at it - for reading the rules more thoroughly than others in order to gain an advantage. This 'loophole' in the rules wasn't hidden too deep not to be found. I would even argue that it was built in there on purpose as to lure manufacturers into tech race, which was cut out in Moto2. Anyways, KTM read the rules quite well, while Honda simply underestimated the effort that was necessary to be (and stay) competitive.


 


Funny enough that a Machavellian, power-driven operation like HRC are depicted as the Robin Hood of Moto3, with KTM being the Sheriff of Nottingham.


 


As for the general cost of entry level racing, keep on addressing your love letters to those who installed the [4-stroke] rules in the first place, not those who interpret it.

Dr No

3662141383002478

Agreed. Honda's lack of competitiveness has really stuffed the field up - though having a crap bike has actually increased the regard for Miller's performance this year.


 


Honda getting entry level bikes out there is a good thing. That they are more expensive than 2-strokes doesn't excuse the likes of KTM making them eye-wateringly expensive. I don't have much problem with it at GP level, but at national/state level it's no way to encourage young riders to get used to a GP chassis/class. The difference between a new NSF and KTM is something like $25K v $70-80K....(though at the PI MRRDA round, I believe the moneybags KTM got murdered by an old TZ125) 


 


But the main thing is that parts are hideously expensive. If you visit the FIM website, they have the homologated parts for KTM/Honda/Mahindra listed along with prices. It is frightening. Well, it is frightening when compared to what it cost to keep an RS/TZ125 on track for a season.

Click to expand...

 


Seen the cost of a door winder for a VW Golf lately?

Since the powers that be can't keep their hands off the rules, yet another edition of the GP rules was published recently.


Interestingly, they've tightened up the fuel testing spec (proper ISO procedure - I wonder what that was in response to) and added transgressions that receive penalty points (passing under a blue)


 


But of interest to this thread is the Moto3 engine rules for 2014: (Sorry about the colour and .... formatting, that was a Ctrl+V from the reg document).


 


In a nutshell:


6 engines per rider.


In homologated batches of 2.


Euro60K for the 6 engines, gearboxes and spares.


Max rpm will drop from 14K to 13.5K in 2015.


 


(My first thought....this is getting nuts. My guess as to why they haven't just imposed a spec engine a la Moto2, is that this is where lots of little Euro/Brit companies have slunk off to. Not full engine manufacturers, but supplier of rods, clutches etc)

 


Effective 2014




 


 Maximum number of engines per contracted rider per season is 6.




 


 Maintenance and rebuilding of engines by teams is not permitted,




 


except for one camchain replacement and one valve clearance




 


adjustment per engine. Engines will be delivered to the team sealed.




 


 Each manufacturer may homologate a maximum of two engine




 


specifications per season. Manufacturers must supply all permanent




 


contracted riders with the same specification engines, the second




 


specification (if any) is intended for Wild Card entries only. Only




 


homologated engines and parts may be used in GP events.




 


 Engine distribution will be controlled by the Organiser, with random




 


distribution to teams to ensure equality of specification, as follows:




 


 Engines will be sold to the team and remain the property of the




 


team.




 


 Manufacturers will deliver the 6 engines in three batches of 2




 


engines per rider, in a schedule approved by the Technical Director




 


prior to the season.




 


 Each engine batch will be sealed by the Technical Director, who




 


will randomly select engines for delivery to the teams supplied by that




 


manufacturer.




 


 The delivery schedule will also include sufficient spare engines,




 


as approved by the Technical Director (normally 50% of the number of




 


riders using that engine brand). Spare engines will also be sealed




 


ready for distribution as required.




 


 The manufacturer may charge a maximum of €68,000 (excl.




 


VAT, excl. freight) per rider for the Moto3 engine package for the




 


season which will be comprised of:




 


o 6 engines




 


o 2 throttle bodies




 


o 6 gearboxes comprised of the two specifications “A” and




 


“B”, as required by the team




 


o 6 camchain replacement kits (if required)




 


 For engine manufacturers in their first Moto3 season (when the




 


minimum supply number is 8 riders), the maximum number of




 


engines per rider per season is 8. These engines will be delivered in




 


three batches, minimum of 2 engines per rider per batch, in a




 


schedule approved by the Technical Director. In this case the




 


manufacturer may charge a maximum of €84,000 (excl. VAT, excl.




 


freight) per rider per season for the Moto3 engine package comprised




 


of:




 


o 8 engines




 


o 2 throttle bodies




 


o 6 gearboxes comprised of the two specifications “A” and




 


“B”, as required by the team




 


o 8 camchain replacement kits (if required)




 


 Engine manufacturers in their first Moto3 season will be permitted




 


one parts/specification update prior to the second engine batch




 


delivery, subject to approval of the Technical Director.




 


 In case of a proven, documented reliability or safety issue (eg. a faulty




 


batch of parts), a manufacturer may apply to the GP Commission to




 


allow replacement parts to be fitted to rectify the problem. If




 


approved, teams may not be charged, and engine power performance




 


may not be altered in any way.




 


 Optional and aftermarket parts are not permitted, except for parts that




 


can be changed without removing the official engine seals. For such




 


parts the homologation, supply and price rules from 2013 will apply,




 


except in the case of a Back-Torque-Limiter clutch (BTL or Slipper




 


clutch) assembly, where the price limit will be 1,500 (excl. VAT, excl.




 


freight).




 


Effective 2015




 


 RPM limit will be set at 13,500 rpm.




 


 The supervised maintenance allowance will be cancelled, so sealed




 


engine covers may not be opened. Therefore camchain replacement




 


and valve clearance setting are not permitted unless these can be




 


done with the official seals in place. Manufacturers will no longer be




 


required to include camchain replacement kits in the engine package.

Is there anything in the regs to close the loophole where engine development costs can be hidden in other costs, such as the cost of buying the whole bike?


 


Earlier on when the engines were announced, it was said that Kalex was the "exclusive" chassis supplier for KTM engines for customer teams. Do the regulations prevent chassis supplier lock-in? Looking at this: http://motomatters.com/news/2013/10/15/aspar_deci?order=title&sort=asc&page=14 it appears that the 'service contract' loophole has been closed. Or at least reduced.

I think 'reduced' is the more accurate term... the irony of improved parity by increasing the cost ceiling...

I will do some more reading, but I can't see full loophole closure, just prohibitive expense.

I guess that Dorma won't be too concerned about costs as long as they have a full grid. And the numbers in Moto3 look high enough.

AnnoyingTwit

3665761383203779

I guess that Dorma won't be too concerned about costs as long as they have a full grid. And the numbers in Moto3 look high enough.

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And I think for the WC level that is understandable, but it does pose a problem for the feeder series' (or potential new feeder series'). Sorry not much to contribute, but I'm following this discussion with interest.

Surely though over the next few years there'll be a few cheapish hand me downs

But on second thoughts thats hardly enough for one national series let alone a handful

barbedwirebiker

3665871383207944



Surely though over the next few years there'll be a few cheapish hand me downs

Click to expand...

That's the point. Honda ...... over the 2 strokes, but their NSF250 was going to populate the lower series. All the rule changes, with differing levels of tune will kill the hand me downs. You can still get 125 pistons, for example, aftermarket or otherwise, for a reasonable amount. Try that in 5 years if you bought a 2013 NSF with GE crank, rod and piston. Hideous cash just to get a club racer onthe track, just to make it standard. Entry level will become road bike sub 200 four strokes...not the thing to cut your teeth on heading into the RBR cup.

I think the inevitable result of these sorts of problems is going to be increasing numbers of spec engine series. Spec tyres seem to have spread through many series, and engines appear to be the next in line. Moto2 has gone spec engine. Maybe moto3 will go that way next?

When will the first tests with 2014 machinery take place?

AnnoyingTwit

3666231383232250

I think the inevitable result of these sorts of problems is going to be increasing numbers of spec engine series. Spec tyres seem to have spread through many series, and engines appear to be the next in line. Moto2 has gone spec engine. Maybe moto3 will go that way next?

Click to expand...

 


No. I think the idea was to start with a spec. engine then diversify. KTM being in there is just that ........ Husqvarna coming in ...... sounds good for brand diversity on paper :lol:


 


 


I think the original intention with Moto2 was also to diversify after the first few years of the spec. engine, but I must admit I haven't heard much of that talk lately.

BarryMachine

3693411385041056

No. I think the idea was to start with a spec. engine then diversify. KTM being in there is just that ........ Husqvarna coming in ...... sounds good for brand diversity on paper :lol:


 


 


I think the original intention with Moto2 was also to diversify after the first few years of the spec. engine, but I must admit I haven't heard much of that talk lately.

Click to expand...

 


That's the intention, but if it means that machinery becomes ruinously expensive (which it isn't yet, but risks going in that direction), then spec engines may well be the result.