Help Support MotoGP Forum:
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2013
- Messages
- 216
See I'm weird, but I actually like the gizmos. As I mentioned, the technology, for me is an exciting part of the sport.
This may sound at odds with what I said before, but I'm not put out by Red Bull designing the best car. I would just like to see what would be achievable when everyone has the same budget. Then it would soley be down to talent. Not just driving talent. Design talent (Adrian Newey is the only 'superstar' aero engineer, and I think that's sad. There's a lot of great takent in the various team garages.) engineering talent.
F1 is less about the driver than it used to be. For a lot of people, that's worse. Even more people choose to ignore that and still attribute what is essentially a team success purely to the guy in the cockpit. (and that's not even mentioning the trackside operations guys who organise the strategies and the pit crews who have trained over and over for 3 second stops)
Sure the driver has a lot of responsibility, and I'm not saying they're all the same by a long shot. But F1 is now a team sport. More so now than ever. For me, this isn't a bad thing. But it does mean the F1 'glory days' of stick shifts and engine grease are now behind us. There is something of a happy medium with the regulations stopping teams from building a car that effectively drives itself. (Interestingly Red, your two examples launch control and TC are two things that aren't allowed on F1 cars) but F1 is a hi-tech sport. Electronics are king now.
Just to answer some of the comments about budget. No I don't think Red Bull have the highest budget in comparison to Mercedes and Ferrari. But I do think those three have massively larger budgets than any other team on the grid. At no point this year was Vettel driving anything less than the second best car on the grid. He was however outdriving himself when Hamilton and Rosberg were unable to capitalise on having the quickest. This is why he's champion and they're not.
Ferrari are fast becoming the Ducati of F1. They are the other team with a massive budget, but they don't seem to be able to build good F1 cars any more. In my opinion, they let both their drivers down this year. Say what you will about Alonso (and I'm sure you will) but he could've achieved more this year with a better car. McLaren ...... up massively at the start of the season. They actually looked like they might start to rally for a while as the car definitely improved for a bit, but then they realised this season would be a wash. I think they're already looking ahead to 2015 so I expect more of the same from them next year.
So sure, budget isn't everything. You need talent in the garage to best put that money to use. But I don't doubt that Lotus, Force India and Sauber at the very least could build a much better car with the talent they already have, with more money in their pockets.
If drivers were more vital to sucess than budget, would we see so many pay drivers on the grid now? This is the area of the sport I have my biggest issue with, and I'll close this long ... post with a statement that contradicts all I've said because I'm a fickle .......
Lotus are starting to sound like they're going to have to hire Maldonado purely for sponsorship money, and if they do. I'm done with them. I don't care how good a car they put together, I can't get behind a team that will let a driver with such piss-poor attitude and mediocre skills buy a seat.
This may sound at odds with what I said before, but I'm not put out by Red Bull designing the best car. I would just like to see what would be achievable when everyone has the same budget. Then it would soley be down to talent. Not just driving talent. Design talent (Adrian Newey is the only 'superstar' aero engineer, and I think that's sad. There's a lot of great takent in the various team garages.) engineering talent.
F1 is less about the driver than it used to be. For a lot of people, that's worse. Even more people choose to ignore that and still attribute what is essentially a team success purely to the guy in the cockpit. (and that's not even mentioning the trackside operations guys who organise the strategies and the pit crews who have trained over and over for 3 second stops)
Sure the driver has a lot of responsibility, and I'm not saying they're all the same by a long shot. But F1 is now a team sport. More so now than ever. For me, this isn't a bad thing. But it does mean the F1 'glory days' of stick shifts and engine grease are now behind us. There is something of a happy medium with the regulations stopping teams from building a car that effectively drives itself. (Interestingly Red, your two examples launch control and TC are two things that aren't allowed on F1 cars) but F1 is a hi-tech sport. Electronics are king now.
Just to answer some of the comments about budget. No I don't think Red Bull have the highest budget in comparison to Mercedes and Ferrari. But I do think those three have massively larger budgets than any other team on the grid. At no point this year was Vettel driving anything less than the second best car on the grid. He was however outdriving himself when Hamilton and Rosberg were unable to capitalise on having the quickest. This is why he's champion and they're not.
Ferrari are fast becoming the Ducati of F1. They are the other team with a massive budget, but they don't seem to be able to build good F1 cars any more. In my opinion, they let both their drivers down this year. Say what you will about Alonso (and I'm sure you will) but he could've achieved more this year with a better car. McLaren ...... up massively at the start of the season. They actually looked like they might start to rally for a while as the car definitely improved for a bit, but then they realised this season would be a wash. I think they're already looking ahead to 2015 so I expect more of the same from them next year.
So sure, budget isn't everything. You need talent in the garage to best put that money to use. But I don't doubt that Lotus, Force India and Sauber at the very least could build a much better car with the talent they already have, with more money in their pockets.
If drivers were more vital to sucess than budget, would we see so many pay drivers on the grid now? This is the area of the sport I have my biggest issue with, and I'll close this long ... post with a statement that contradicts all I've said because I'm a fickle .......
Lotus are starting to sound like they're going to have to hire Maldonado purely for sponsorship money, and if they do. I'm done with them. I don't care how good a car they put together, I can't get behind a team that will let a driver with such piss-poor attitude and mediocre skills buy a seat.
Well we agree on some things there 14X. If Lotus choose Maldonado and the cash he brings over Hulkenberg's talent then it's a very sad day for F1. It also shows there should be a budget cap and I'd be happy to see one brought in too. I think it should be a level playing field for all concerned.
I also agree that F1 is a team sport which is why after every win Vettel thanks the team, plus, after he'd taken the title he spoke so much about how good the team is and how aware he is of all the hard work they put in for him to be able to drive their car that fast. The driver is only a tiny part of it. Red Bull have a great team spirit and they've capitalised on their success. Good team morale and a positive mental attitude all help, when your team is winning it's so much easier to be more confident isn't it?
Ferrari's problems mainly seem to stem from their wind tunnel not being correctly calibrated from what I read. There was a lot said about this for a while yet from what I understand, although they know the data it gives isn't completely accurate, they keep on using it. I can't personally understand that but then what do I know about such things? To me it would make sense to hire a different one, or build another one if they can't fix the one they have. I am very aware how expensive that would be to do though.
I completely agree with you on Alonso, if he had a half decent car he'd have given Vettel much less chance of winning the championship, hell with the crap car they had he was still the closest contender this year which is shameful in some ways and poves how good a driver he really is. I am under no illusions about his skills in a car believe me.
Sauber have done wonders with thier limited cash producing a car regularly in the points these last few races. There again though, Hulkenberg has done way more with it than Gutierrez, which once again shows me the drivers really do matter and make that much difference.
As for the cash thing, as much as we agree about Lotus, if their finances are so bad they have to take Maldonado (cash) over Hulkenberg (talent) it reflects badly on the sport as a whole. A fast driver is no good without a good car under him is he? That money could be the difference between them just showing up or being able to actually race and that's an awful situation for any team to be in.
I also agree that F1 is a team sport which is why after every win Vettel thanks the team, plus, after he'd taken the title he spoke so much about how good the team is and how aware he is of all the hard work they put in for him to be able to drive their car that fast. The driver is only a tiny part of it. Red Bull have a great team spirit and they've capitalised on their success. Good team morale and a positive mental attitude all help, when your team is winning it's so much easier to be more confident isn't it?
Ferrari's problems mainly seem to stem from their wind tunnel not being correctly calibrated from what I read. There was a lot said about this for a while yet from what I understand, although they know the data it gives isn't completely accurate, they keep on using it. I can't personally understand that but then what do I know about such things? To me it would make sense to hire a different one, or build another one if they can't fix the one they have. I am very aware how expensive that would be to do though.
I completely agree with you on Alonso, if he had a half decent car he'd have given Vettel much less chance of winning the championship, hell with the crap car they had he was still the closest contender this year which is shameful in some ways and poves how good a driver he really is. I am under no illusions about his skills in a car believe me.
Sauber have done wonders with thier limited cash producing a car regularly in the points these last few races. There again though, Hulkenberg has done way more with it than Gutierrez, which once again shows me the drivers really do matter and make that much difference.
As for the cash thing, as much as we agree about Lotus, if their finances are so bad they have to take Maldonado (cash) over Hulkenberg (talent) it reflects badly on the sport as a whole. A fast driver is no good without a good car under him is he? That money could be the difference between them just showing up or being able to actually race and that's an awful situation for any team to be in.
Lyria
See, told you so!!! I was right on with that!!
So Kimi is out for the last two races due to his back injury (not sure who Lotus will field, what a nightmare for them) Alonso is on the plane to Austin so his back isn't too bad then, and Perez is being dropped for Kevin Magnussen, so the drivers roundabout is still turning and causing casualties. Hulkenberg's people are in discussions with Force India so will Maldonado be the one sitting in the Lotus now? I mean given a choice who would choose Force India over Lotus? I know I wouldn't.
Sorry, couldn't resist just pointing out my correct prediction
See, told you so!!! I was right on with that!!
So Kimi is out for the last two races due to his back injury (not sure who Lotus will field, what a nightmare for them) Alonso is on the plane to Austin so his back isn't too bad then, and Perez is being dropped for Kevin Magnussen, so the drivers roundabout is still turning and causing casualties. Hulkenberg's people are in discussions with Force India so will Maldonado be the one sitting in the Lotus now? I mean given a choice who would choose Force India over Lotus? I know I wouldn't.
Sorry, couldn't resist just pointing out my correct prediction
Geonerd
Desert Varmint
- Joined
- May 6, 2008
- Messages
- 3,343
- Location
- Southern Aridzona - Hell's doorstep.
"Yes, dear."
( Lyria, answering your own posts is usually the first sign... )
Sad to see the Lotus / Kimi meltdown. After listening to a few of Boullier's interviews, I've actually come to sorta-like him. He seems reasonably straightforward, at least for an F1 principal. It sounds like the team is finally close to signing their big sponsor. Given their limited budget, they've done a great job with the car. Here's hoping they continue to be competitive.
( Lyria, answering your own posts is usually the first sign...
)Sad to see the Lotus / Kimi meltdown. After listening to a few of Boullier's interviews, I've actually come to sorta-like him. He seems reasonably straightforward, at least for an F1 principal. It sounds like the team is finally close to signing their big sponsor. Given their limited budget, they've done a great job with the car. Here's hoping they continue to be competitive.
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2013
- Messages
- 216
If Lotus put anyone in the car for the last 2 races than Davide Valsecchi they will fall further behind in my estimation. The guy is a GP2 champion who has put racing on hold to be Lotus' reserve driver for a year. If there is a better example of a situation that requires the use of your reserve driver, then I would like to hear it. If Kimi hasn't been paid, I doubt Davide has either. Give the guy a chance to shine.
The Perez situation pisses me off. It's sloppy reporting. There is no factual statement from McLaren saying anything like 'Perez out - Magnussen in' in fact most of the articles I've read with the hyperbolic headline have Martin Whitmarsh directly quoted as 'We haven't confirmed our drivers' which is the exact opposite of the actual article. I'm not saying it won't happen, or doubting that this is based on insider information or whatever (I mean, that info has to have come from somewhere) but don't print articles as fact when you've got .... all (Not aimed at you Lyria, aimed at the reports themselves)
Allegedly the Quantum deal is done, Lotus now have money. However, the first interview with the Quantum guy said he expects the signing of Hulkenberg to be a priority, and Boullier has also said that if the deal is secured, Nico is their first choice, so I'm left wondering. A week after the Quantum deal was allegedly signed, where the .... is the Hulkenberg announcement that'll save me from having to burn my Lotus shirt?
The Perez situation pisses me off. It's sloppy reporting. There is no factual statement from McLaren saying anything like 'Perez out - Magnussen in' in fact most of the articles I've read with the hyperbolic headline have Martin Whitmarsh directly quoted as 'We haven't confirmed our drivers' which is the exact opposite of the actual article. I'm not saying it won't happen, or doubting that this is based on insider information or whatever (I mean, that info has to have come from somewhere) but don't print articles as fact when you've got .... all (Not aimed at you Lyria, aimed at the reports themselves)
Allegedly the Quantum deal is done, Lotus now have money. However, the first interview with the Quantum guy said he expects the signing of Hulkenberg to be a priority, and Boullier has also said that if the deal is secured, Nico is their first choice, so I'm left wondering. A week after the Quantum deal was allegedly signed, where the .... is the Hulkenberg announcement that'll save me from having to burn my Lotus shirt?
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2006
- Messages
- 11,345
- Location
- Texas
I just noticed F1 is in Austin... guess ill watch see what the hub bubs all bout..
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2011
- Messages
- 3,451
- Location
- The North!
I didn't watch, did the wrong car set on fire again this weekend?
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2009
- Messages
- 3,155
- Location
- siebenbürgen süße heimat!
mechanical problems since 2009:
vettel 33
webber 34
at least mark is winning something.
in hindsight its awesome that sebs car seems to attract bad luck more when the championship is tight. 2010 was great because of it
vettel 33
webber 34
at least mark is winning something.
in hindsight its awesome that sebs car seems to attract bad luck more when the championship is tight. 2010 was great because of it
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2013
- Messages
- 216
Want to do a mechanical problems list for 2013?
2010 was great, as was 2012. So given that 2011 and 2013 have been kinda dud, we are due a good one next year.
I have somewhat revised my stance on supporting Lotus. based on the fact I stuck by Grosjean during his nutter phase, it's only fair I get the payoff (and atoadasos) when he starts winning races and bothering Vettel. Which by my reckoning isn't too far off now.
I may however have to pretend they're only running one car next year. I can't support that entitled prick Maldonado no matter which colours he's wearing.
2010 was great, as was 2012. So given that 2011 and 2013 have been kinda dud, we are due a good one next year.
I have somewhat revised my stance on supporting Lotus. based on the fact I stuck by Grosjean during his nutter phase, it's only fair I get the payoff (and atoadasos) when he starts winning races and bothering Vettel. Which by my reckoning isn't too far off now.
I may however have to pretend they're only running one car next year. I can't support that entitled prick Maldonado no matter which colours he's wearing.
barbedwirebiker
Banned Camp
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2011
- Messages
- 900
- Location
- somewhere else
What do you guys think?
Redbull 1-2 last race. Team orders let Webber take the win as a last hurrah?
Redbull 1-2 last race. Team orders let Webber take the win as a last hurrah?
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2009
- Messages
- 3,155
- Location
- siebenbürgen süße heimat!
barbedwirebiker
maybe, they already did it in 2011
normally i wouldn't expect rbr to be allmighty in bumpy brazil, but since the summer break the car neither rolls from side to side nor from front to back. aeros is one thing, but its the suspension which "bought" rb those 3-4 tenths since the summer break
that must surely be a huge advantage this time
maybe, they already did it in 2011
normally i wouldn't expect rbr to be allmighty in bumpy brazil, but since the summer break the car neither rolls from side to side nor from front to back. aeros is one thing, but its the suspension which "bought" rb those 3-4 tenths since the summer break
that must surely be a huge advantage this time
Geonerd
Desert Varmint
- Joined
- May 6, 2008
- Messages
- 3,343
- Location
- Southern Aridzona - Hell's doorstep.
The Lotus / Quantum deal has got to be dead by now.... Ijaz has been promising 'any day now' for weeks.
Interesting write up at http://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1qqqjz/why_the_lotus_deal_is_a_fantasy_who_are_quantum/
Gotta wonder how (if) Lotus is going to survive.
Interesting write up at http://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1qqqjz/why_the_lotus_deal_is_a_fantasy_who_are_quantum/
Gotta wonder how (if) Lotus is going to survive.
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2013
- Messages
- 216
Yeah I read that a little while ago. It's just written by some guy, but his sources seem to check out. (in fact they're very easy to check which makes me think Lotus are either to busy to Google their prospective new shareholders, or they know it's a scam and are using it for their own devices)
They will survive either way. They will just have to use a different plan to get money. Namely putting Maldonado in their other car as he comes with $30million in sponsorship. The only one that will seriously lose out is Hulkenberg.
And that, is precisely what's wrong with F1 today.
They will survive either way. They will just have to use a different plan to get money. Namely putting Maldonado in their other car as he comes with $30million in sponsorship. The only one that will seriously lose out is Hulkenberg.
And that, is precisely what's wrong with F1 today.
