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Kropotkin said:
Tires: Remember Rossi's crash? That was the same thing. Put them in the tire warmers and the rubber would get hot, but it wouldn't stick. Go out on the first lap and push to heat it up, but if you slack off for a while on lap 2, the tire cools sufficiently for you to get slung into low earth orbit.



As for Stoner's preference, he has not had problems getting heat into the front tires, so he likes the stiffer compound. Other riders are less keen, as they do find it hard. But the problem is also a little about the Honda, both Stoner and Pedrosa preferred the 24 over the 21 (the codes Bridgestone use - and before you ask, they're meaningless apart from being an ID code), while the rest of the riders preferred the 21. The Honda seems to be able to cope with the stiffer front tire better.
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Thanks, but Rossi's crash (2010) as a reference? You mean the same tire heating problem has existed across two seasons? Or are you talking about another Rossi crash in 2011? It seems the riders really complained about this last season 2011. I thought this issue was more unique to 2011 exemplified by crashes like Crutchlow (Silverstone) and Simonchelli (can't remember where but when he caused Lorenzo to go down). Also, while I'm at it, does this tire issue also include the challenges described by Stoner to "scrub" in a tire?
 
Jumkie said:
Thanks, but Rossi's crash (2010) as a reference? You mean the same tire heating problem has existed across two seasons? Or are you talking about another Rossi crash in 2011? It seems the riders really complained about this last season 2011. I thought this issue was more unique to 2011 exemplified by crashes like Crutchlow (Silverstone) and Simonchelli (can't remember where but when he caused Lorenzo to go down). Also, while I'm at it, does this tire issue also include the challenges described by Stoner to "scrub" in a tire?
Click to expand...



They've been complaining about this for at least 2 seasons, maybe more. Better tires this year, with much faster warmup.
 
mylexicon said:
Some sort of disinterested, incorruptible, governing authority is definitely the best option. The FIA have their problems, but they have managed to hang on to F1 for all these years.



Media company ownership is a conundrum. The companies are essentially creative product designers who don't really understand the concept of spontaneous competition. Why would they let the sport evolve naturally if they can create something much better? Even public governance is asking similar questions (to the detriment of mankind, imo). However, despite the shortcomings of media institutions, why shouldn't they be allowed to own an product that earns all of its revenue from viewership and advertising? Furthermore, cricket teams play to earn profits, but MSMA members do not. At a glance, the MSMA appear to be following the intent of sport (competition not profit), but a more thorough examination reveals that the MSMA actually use MotoGP for advertising, which removes them from sport even more than the profit motives of modern sports franchise owners.



Ultimately, I think commercial ownership is decided on pragmatic grounds. Perhaps they have no business owning the sport, but the sport ends up in their possession b/c they are the least bad of the options. I'd like to think that the situation can be remedied by potent governing bodies, but I really don't know the politics of these institutions. Maybe the FIM is the most inept of them all. If that's the case, the sport would be in better stead if Dorna spun off their consultants into some kind of independent committee, funded by the GPC, to stop the sport from collapsing on itself.
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Oddly rupert to whom you may be referring was the subject of the animadversion of his fellow australian billionaire, when he effectively bought or started an opposition version of another sport, rugby league.



I think who should own a sport is more complex than my initial post encompassed, as you have pointed out. One aspect though with a "traditional" sport with wide participation and support like cricket has in a few countries is what happens to the "grass roots" in terms of local club cricket, all the volunteer work parents of kids participating etc do if it is owned by some corporate entity.



Another problem with motogp is that the show moves all over the world and requires very expensive TV coverage to even have a chance of reaching commercial critical mass ( perhaps this is why FIM got out of running/owning the sport in the first place), and as you have said the economics of this changed when the sale to dorna was forced.
 
michaelm said:
Another problem with motogp is that the show moves all over the world and requires very expensive TV coverage to even have a chance of reaching commercial critical mass ( perhaps this is why FIM got out of running/owning the sport in the first place), and as you have said the economics of this changed when the sale to dorna was forced.
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Yeah, the global feed is definitely important, and I think it's how Dorna gained access to MotoGP. According to some Concorde documents that leaked a few years ago, F1 was spending upwards of $120M for global feed. To me, that cost is relatively fixed. MotoGP probably uses fewer cameras and personnel, but they still travel to 18 rounds per season. Dorna also spends money on coverage upgrades like full HD and gyroscopic onboard cameras. I'd be surprised if Dorna get away with spending less than $80M on TV and distribution. If that's they case, the cost of the global feed is about 1/3 of MotoGP's total revenues (according to the $250M estimate). F1 spends only about 7% of its revenues on global feed. The other 1/3 of Dorna's revenues is probably consumed by travel and administration. Based upon my rough, slightly-informed estimations, they are trying to fund all teams and take profits from only $80M. IF Dorna are able to pay each MSMA member a piddling sum of $10M each, in 2011 they were trying to fund all IRTA teams in GP/Moto2/125cc with $40M AND take profits.



I think Bridgepoint via Dorna have the sport for 18 years, IDK exactly. Something like 2020 or 2024 the music stops when the contract with the FIM expires. For them to earn a 5% annual return (nothing) on the principle, assuming 5% simple interest, Bridgepoint needs distributions of $30M-$35M. Imo, the numbers I've provided are unrealistically nice so the problem is pretty clear, yes? The show is not good enough to improve revenues b/c TV companies and governments aren't willing to buy a 3-manufacturer-procession. Furthermore, Bridgepoint are going to lose their ... if MotoGP doesn't return significantly higher profits.



Dorna can't get the MSMA to do anything with the racing product, other than keep people away and stunt growth, and Dorna lost their courage to implement NASBIKE rules. The GPC have therefore agreed to slash and burn until MotoGP looks like a cheap Chinese good, found at your local Walmart.



Anyway, the point of all of this conjecture is to illustrate the possible motives of commercial companies when they are hard up for money--another dimension to the argument against commercial control of the sporting contest. F1 is having similar money problems, but the source of financial woe is quite different.
 
Jumkie said:
Thanks, but Rossi's crash (2010) as a reference? You mean the same tire heating problem has existed across two seasons? Or are you talking about another Rossi crash in 2011? It seems the riders really complained about this last season 2011. I thought this issue was more unique to 2011 exemplified by crashes like Crutchlow (Silverstone) and Simonchelli (can't remember where but when he caused Lorenzo to go down). Also, while I'm at it, does this tire issue also include the challenges described by Stoner to "scrub" in a tire?
Click to expand...



Not sure about the Rossi crash but yeah Crutchlow was supposed to do a couple of warm up laps before trying to nail one in quallie. But did one warm up and went for it resulting in a broken collar bone. As I recall Herve was steaming!

And Marco went down just in front of Jorge at Assen on the first lap leaving nowhere to go for Jorge.
 
It is no secret that MotoGP is going through a moment of severe economic crisis. With strong logistic costs and research and development, the world has historically supported the sponsors, an integral part of the budget of each team. The global recession has pushed many brands to drastically reduce, or even eliminate, this type of investment. The imperative now is to cut costs, but at the dawn of a new League, many wonder what can ensure a prosperous future in the sport.

According to an analysis of StageUp, the teams have lost on average 30% of revenues from 2006 to today, while costs have not been reduced sufficiently to ensure an economic equilibrium.

In this context, they placed the latest regulatory news, as the calendar of the approach in two races, the proposed switch to a motorcycle rider, and for the introduction of the CRT. They are also an important negotiation tool to facilitate calmieramento leasing prices of motorcycles from the brands. The stated aim of Dorna is 1 million euro per bike.

According to research, a medium-sized team has a budget of 15 million net of marketing costs and hiring pilots. In the case of officers, the figure may reach up to 40 million. Dorna holds television rights of the MotoGP World Championship, and reserves every year to redistribute the profits between the teams. However, deficits remain to be filled.

In its favour, the MotoGP riders can count on approximately 25 million fans among the 14-64 years, a target attractive and varied. How do you explain the current difficulties in creating business partnerships, evidenced by the fact that the official Yamaha team is present for the second consecutive year without a main sponsor on the hull of the M1?

"It would be good if the search for investors to direct him towards the more high-tech sectors and renewable energy sources – said Giovanni Palazzi, President of StageUp – we are facing a strategic change, everything is in deciding what is and what will be the role of the world in the context of a global transformation towards clean energy.

The only certainty is that you can't go on. Too little, for a sport that requires a stable regulation to attract long-term investments by manufacturers and sponsors.


GPONE TRANSLATION........​
​

​
​

ITS FECKED PLAIN AND SIMPLE AND NO EASY ROUTE TO BETTER TIMES.​
​

DORNA FECKED​
​

MSMA FECKED​
​

1000CC TOO FAST.FECKED​
​

600CC TOO SLOW ££££££££ SPENT GETTING THEM FASTER FECKED​
​

TV COVERAGE WILL BE FECKED..​
​
 
Pigeon said:
ITS FECKED PLAIN AND SIMPLE AND NO EASY ROUTE TO BETTER TIMES.​

DORNA FECKED​

MSMA FECKED​

1000CC TOO FAST.FECKED​

600CC TOO SLOW ££££££££ SPENT GETTING THEM FASTER FECKED​

TV COVERAGE WILL BE FECKED..​
Click to expand...




Welcome to my world. However, I think relatively easy solutions exist, but making the GPC recognize reason is almost impossible. Businesses are risk averse. Dorna wants the certainty of low costs and close racing. They will ruin MotoGP, the sport, to get what they want. MSMA want the certainty of manufacturer-controlled rules and technical regulations that reward cubic dollars. Needless to say, the MSMA's desires have ruined the sport.



The sociological forces inside the GPC, not a lack of viable solutions, are tearing apart the sport.

​
 
mylexicon said:
Welcome to my world. However, I think relatively easy solutions exist, but making the GPC recognize reason is almost impossible. Businesses are risk averse. Dorna wants the certainty of low costs and close racing. They will ruin MotoGP, the sport, to get what they want. MSMA want the certainty of manufacturer-controlled rules and technical regulations that reward cubic dollars. Needless to say, the MSMA's desires have ruined the sport.



The sociological forces inside the GPC, not a lack of viable solutions, are tearing apart the sport.

[/left][/left]
Click to expand...



Would you agree that Dorna must be applauded however for at least recognizing and attempting to fix it to bring some credibility back to the competition after the 800cc fiasco?

In saying this, IMO they are still going the wrong way about the fix.
 
Talpa said:
Would you agree that Dorna must be applauded however for at least recognizing and attempting to fix it to bring some credibility back to the competition after the 800cc fiasco?

In saying this, IMO they are still going the wrong way about the fix.
Click to expand...





Not really. Bridgepiont are not making any money, and MotoGP is under-performing as an investment property. We could gloss over the commercial aspects as fans, if the sport were generating some kind of good for us and the motorcycle market, but it isn't. The sport and the motorcycle market is contracting rather violently.



Basically, Bridgepoint have said to Ezpeleta, "if you don't fix this mess, we might have to replace you and your team of executives, and put some different people in charge". Ezpeleta is happy to oblige b/c he still owns a portion of the commercial rights, IIRC. Of course, this is a risky tack for Bridgepoint to take b/c competent experience executives are not easy to come by, but they are going broke so they don't have much choice.



If Dorna get their way, they can have credit when their formula grows the sport and the industry as a whole. The sport they want is better than what the MSMA are offering, but it still has many unnecessary shortcomings, imo.
 
Havent read all the thread yet.. but there was a GP in china in 08, from memory it had free entry?



Im not privy to the inner workings of dorna.. but there must be a reason they didn't go back?
 
Before MotoGP comes to Brazil we need a descent track. The government and specially the biggest TV channel (TV Globo) gives a .... about bike racing. F-1 survives thanks to some Brazilian still in it and also b/c of Ayrton Senna history in the sport.



Unfortunately, while we don't have a rider in MotoGP, it won't return to Brazil. I can guarantee. There is nothing to do with Dorna.
 
Baffy said:
Havent read all the thread yet.. but there was a GP in china in 08, from memory it had free entry?



Im not privy to the inner workings of dorna.. but there must be a reason they didn't go back?
Click to expand...



Probably because Dorna thought they could roll out Rossi and all of China would get down on their knees.



Maybe we could all chip in and buy Carmelo a copy of Marketing for Dumbies for his birthday.
 
does anybody here agree that Spain should get four GPs in a year, I think it stinks! I called it the Spanish World championship. In 2010 it played right into the spanish riders hands, spain won more races than all nations combined in all classes. one thing about spanish fans is they are very temperamental, if their rider isn't doing well, they walk out before the race has even ended! I went to Catalunya circuit in 2007 when there were 113,000 people there, compare that to last year it was about 83,000 (if I remember correctly) because Pedrosa was out.



I read recently that from next year Spain will only host one Formula Yawn race a year, alternating each year between Barcelona and Valencia. The reasons were because of local government cut backs. So will the same happen in MotoGP, I certainly hope so. OK King Carlos won't get to as many races and Dorna won't get such a large cut of the profits.



So I'm all for more GPs in other countries, if the circuit/racing is decent then why not. Qatar must get about three coachloads, but I think it is worthy of remaining. I'd say a lot of the teams and money is from Europe, so it makes economic sense to base it there, but to truly expand and get other nations involved then MotoGP has to go to pastures new. if spain lost one or two GPs, there is where you can start to build upon. keep traditional races, like Assen and Le Mans, and limit to two, maximum, races per nation per year.



The only thing it will play havock with my sleep, but I love my GPs and I'm prepared to get up at silly hours because I have to watch it live
 
When the .... is Moto2 going CRT????
<




its in the top class now, and the new Moto3 class has multi-factory engines........
<
.....anyone?
 
Kropotkin said:
The tires last the distance. But to answer your question, look at F1. Out with the Bridgestones (boring races) in with the Pirellis (interesting races). Pirelli were asked to build tires that went off quickly, and they did.
Click to expand...



F1 is a totally different product though. They have hard & soft compounds & pit stops. Every driver mixing up when they change compounds in the pits is what mixes up the racing more than anything.

With bikes they would probably still all nearly be on exactly the same spec tyre all race. It may make a little difference but I don't think it will be big.

For me there are only a few riders who can push these bikes to the absolute limit & beyond. The further we take that limit, the fewer riders will be there at the front.

If the bikes are a lot easier to ride at full pace we will have more bikes at the front. It's been pretty much the reason why we had so many great 125 & 250 races over the years.

A lot more riders could ride them flat knacker. Dovi would give the likes of Lorenzo & Stoner & Pedrosa a run for their money week in week out in the lower classes. But now they are in motogp you have to risk a .... load more to ride at the front. The only way to get more riders in the front pack is to make the bikes easier to ride on the limit. That means probably rev limits & more fuel conservation not less. Tyres would also play a part. I don't like dumbing down the bikes, but I think it's the only way to close up the gap between the top & bottom teams. Everyone would also need to be on similar spec machinery. No more Factory, sattelite & CRT spec.How can that concept promote close racing at the front? They need to be reasonably similar spec.
 
Hey peoples. After reading these forums for ages (always entertaining, I must say), I've finally taken the plunge to join! Being my first post, please go easy on me
<
.



In my humble opinion, I think Motogp is too "Spanish". Rather than being a "world" sport, it seems like the Spanish National anthem is played way too many times on a race weekend during podium presentations - and it aint surprising considering how many Spanish riders are on the grid in all 3 categories. Now, don't get me wrong, I've nothing against the Spanish at all. However, having such a large representation (and could be argued - favouritism towards Spanish riders from the sport) it greatly serves to undermine Motogp's status as being the "world's" pinnacle of motorcycle racing - instead, it seems (at the moment) that it is more like "the Spanish Motorcycle world Championships" with a few internationals thrown in.



Also, I know Casey Stoney cops a lot of hate, but if it wasn't for him, it would be total Spanish domination there would be no realistic non-Spanish title contenders - I know a lot of people are gonna disagree and that's cool. But sincerly, I think the sport needs to measures and create more incentives to diversify the grid.



Cheers,



Mick
 
I don't think it needs to expand. It's nowhere near as popular as Formula 1 to the rest of the world but to Moto GP's fans it is the world. Maybe it is a bit of an underground sport...where you have to be in it to know of it...but aslong as i'm in it along with all the other fans...I don't care what the rest of the world think.
 

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