Joined Oct 2006
3K Posts | 34+
Tar Heel State
I would think guarantees rather than assurances are probably involved, and ducati have pretty well bet the farm on valentino and would be crazy to then ignore his wishes. I think rossi with or without jb will perfect the gp11 if it is perfectable, which it may or may not be if it is an evolution of the gp10 chassis approach, which is fairly radically different from the current yamaha, much more than the 2004 yamaha 990 was from the 2003 honda. I imagine valentino has done due diligence though, and if he thinks it is fixable it must be considered likely it is so. I am sure valentino and preziosi will come up with a strong bike for the new formula in 2012, again with or without jb.
Great post........you sound like JB himself to me!!! Excellent reading
And Mickm, Sete and Max had a fair bit to do with the 2006 RC211V as well.
The rider theory is something Burgess perfected with Doohan. Mick has said that he was consistent for 5 years when other Honda riders had failed b/c he and Burgess successfully deflected most attempts by Honda to cover the bike in unproven developments.
Furusawa's mandatory retirement could be part of the motivation behind Rossi's switch. Without Furusawa to approve the developments, Rossi & Burgess can't get anything done. Perhaps they are not confident in the new guy?
I stand corrected then. I had not previously realised that biaggi or gibernau had ridden for honda in 2006.
I am sure it was implied that the data from Biaggi and Gibernau in 2005 was used in any delevelopment for the 2006 RC211V.
Same idea with Haga and Corser developing the 2009 Yamaha R1 for Spies to dial to his liking......they gave him a great bike to start with
Sure, I was being sarcastic. I play an ongoing game with talpa, concerning not crediting people who have actually beaten valentino rossi, not that I don't enjoy his participation overall.
(EDIT I didn't read the second part of your post. I think the 2009 yamaha was very much down to spies rather than haga or corser, with which you probably agree).
If you want to carry the implication to its logical end, you (and talpa) are implying that gibernau and biaggi who did not win a world championship against rossi deserve the credit rather than nicky hayden who did. The circumstances of 2006 were that they fairly constantly threw new parts at nicky,in the assimilation of which he was not aided by biaggi or gibernau ( and not much by dani pedrosa either as far as I can tell), and would not allow him to go back to the old clutch for instance after clutch problems derailed him in at least 2 races; see lex's post regarding honda's approach in general. He also was crashed into and taken out by his team-mate in a suicide overtaking move in the penultimate round when in a position to clinch the world championship, so it is not as though he had no obstacles to overcome even over and above competing with someone as great as rossi. Does this win make him as good as rossi? Obviously not, and I have not seen even his greatest fans claim this, although I have not participated in this forum from its inception. My argument is not against rossi, but rather those who won't give nicky credit at all.
Note I said they had a fair bit to do with it as well, not saying Nicky didn't, but it was great straight out of the box that year, as was a certain red bike the year after........
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Mental, your starting point is no doubt a good intuition but then the idea should not be stretched too much, otherwise I am afraid it becomes too simplified and loses its grasp on reality.
All designers (and all riders) want a bike with as many advantages on the competition as possible. A very well balanced bike, like Yamaha, has that as its advantage on other bikes that are less balanced.
"Taking the bike out of the rider's way" is a good reminder that the bike, as many advantages and qualities it may have, does not ride itself and has to be tuned to the rider. But that, I'm afraid, will have to be rider-specific. Taking the M1 out of Rossi's way may mean making it more powerful while preserving the handling; taking it out of "my" way would mean making it a 150 bhp bike with very smooth power delivery and super-easy handling
Honda have the opposite mantra, "take the rider out of the bike's way". For them the rider is the difficult-to-control variable. There are riders, like Stoner, who may be better suited to that approach and tend to adapt to whatever bike you give them. If you try to take the bike out of his way, he may not be able to tell you what to do...
He rides the thing to the limit no questions asked, and if he crashes he'll complain. Fantastic for the engineer to gather data -- that's why Honda want him. He's functional to their approach, whereas JB and Rossi were not. As you said, it will be super-interesting to see how Ducati (so far Honda-like) will be able to change their philosophy.
Mental, your starting point is no doubt a good intuition but then the idea should not be stretched too much, otherwise I am afraid it becomes too simplified and loses its grasp on reality.
All designers (and all riders) want a bike with as many advantages on the competition as possible. A very well balanced bike, like Yamaha, has that as its advantage on other bikes that are less balanced.
"Taking the bike out of the rider's way" is a good reminder that the bike, as many advantages and qualities it may have, does not ride itself and has to be tuned to the rider. But that, I'm afraid, will have to be rider-specific. Taking the M1 out of Rossi's way may mean making it more powerful while preserving the handling; taking it out of "my" way would mean making it a 150 bhp bike with very smooth power delivery and super-easy handling
Honda have the opposite mantra, "take the rider out of the bike's way". For them the rider is the difficult-to-control variable. There are riders, like Stoner, who may be better suited to that approach and tend to adapt to whatever bike you give them. If you try to take the bike out of his way, he may not be able to tell you what to do...
He rides the thing to the limit no questions asked, and if he crashes he'll complain. Fantastic for the engineer to gather data -- that's why Honda want him. He's functional to their approach, whereas JB and Rossi were not. As you said, it will be super-interesting to see how Ducati (so far Honda-like) will be able to change their philosophy.
Thank you J4rn0 for your considered response.
I agree with your comment that Yamaha's advantage is their balance and it is a point that I felt was implied in my original post. My simplified take on a very complex endeavour, that of developing a motorcycle that a rider can win on, was to highlight the intent of those steering the development. JB and Rossi arrive at the advantage of balance by eliminating faults. In my simplified view of others their intent seems to be the pursuit of some technological or mechanical advantage/component that their competitor does not have. Take Ducati's carbon fibre "frame" as an example. Another example outside of the MotoGP world but still in the Yamaha stable is the WR450. Year in year out this bike receives nothing more than a new graphics kit. But it is a bike that although boring can be ridden well by just about anyone and looses little or nothing to most of its competitors. Why is this so when other manufacturers are constantly trying new technology, geometry etc? Simple, because the bike has no faults. All of its parts are good, none are special and none are bad and therefore its averageness gives it a balance advantage.
For the reasons you mentioned I think Stoner was the perfect rider for Ducati and perhaps is for Honda. I like you and no doubt others are waiting with baited breathe to see if Ducati's putting paper in front of Rossi for an autograph is an admission that they had the philosophy wrong. Just as Honda signing Stoner is perhaps a last ditch effort in trying to prove that they were right way back at season's end in 2003.
Not necessarily. Their long stated public position was that they didn't think anyone could out-ride rossi, hence the need to develop a bike faster than his. They were fairly consistent in their approach, extending it to developing tyres with a different manufacturer; if you recall they were even prepared to change to michelin rather than accede to a control tyre at the end of 2008. Now they have rossi changing their approach would not indisputably be an admission of error.
Much will be revealed as soon as the post valencia testing if rossi and stoner are both allowed to test for their new teams.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
It makes sense.
That also means that Lorenzo has signed the contract, otherwise according to the logic of Jarvis' previous statement he wouldn't have been allowed to test anything 2011
I feel the same as you do with Hayden....Hayden benefited from data gain from years past (every rider does), but he earned that title himself. All the data and bike upgrades in the world don't mean jack if you can't apply it every race. At this level of racing nothing is given to anyone. He had to defeat Rossi and HRC's love for Pedrosa to become World Champion....and that is pretty impressive in my book. I wish he had a few more wins that season to go with the flow of title years Rossi had thrown down (and 3 other races where he got second were damn close at the end). I am glad he stuck it to Honda by winning a title (and Pedrosa has not done that for HRC eventhough they built the custom midget bike for him) but it sucks that Honda took the last 990cc title just like they took the last 250cc title.
I find Hayden's title more impressive than Stoner's because it was during a season where the rules where the same as they had been since 2002.....unlike the 2007 where the engine class, the fuel limit, and tire limit all came into play at once. Hayden, IMO, had never been used in the development of the bikes eventhough he was on the factory team.....he raced with parts developed for Rossi, Gibernau, Biaggi, and Barros. Don't get me wrong...Stoner had a great year, second year in MotoGP at that, and earned that title. It was a trial and error season and Ducati/Stoner really nailed it and set the bar....which shows when you see how much Rossi/Yamaha stepped up each year after.
As far as Spies.....I think Haga and Corser laid the ground work and Spies came in and refined the bike. Spies was a huge part of making the bike a winner all season long....he brought even more Yamaha factory focus to the WSBK effort showed he could improve the bike every round. I dont think Spies could take a junk bike and have the season he did in 2009. I find it Hard to believe he could develop the bike like that and have the time to learn the tracks every weekend at the same time.....is very good, but not Superman.
Joined Mar 2007
2K Posts | 0+
Alpha Setti 5
I've just spotted this, I don't know if anyone else has seen it............
http://www.racers-republic.com/motogp/news/1934/sunday-is-d-day-for-rossi-s-ducati-deal
http://www.racers-republic.com/motogp/news/1934/sunday-is-d-day-for-rossi-s-ducati-deal
Joined Feb 2007
6K Posts | 58+
Rovrum S,Yorks Eng
yeah not long now
i reckon Rossi has the Yellow about him Ducati the Red
maybe a new sponsor = McDonalds ? Big McDuc
Joined Mar 2007
2K Posts | 0+
Alpha Setti 5
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
I feel the same as you do with Hayden....Hayden benefited from data gain from years past (every rider does), but he earned that title himself. All the data and bike upgrades in the world don't mean jack if you can't apply it every race. At this level of racing nothing is given to anyone. He had to defeat Rossi and HRC's love for Pedrosa to become World Champion....and that is pretty impressive in my book. I wish he had a few more wins that season to go with the flow of title years Rossi had thrown down (and 3 other races where he got second were damn close at the end). I am glad he stuck it to Honda by winning a title (and Pedrosa has not done that for HRC eventhough they built the custom midget bike for him) but it sucks that Honda took the last 990cc title just like they took the last 250cc title.
I find Hayden's title more impressive than Stoner's because it was during a season where the rules where the same as they had been since 2002.....unlike the 2007 where the engine class, the fuel limit, and tire limit all came into play at once. Hayden, IMO, had never been used in the development of the bikes eventhough he was on the factory team.....he raced with parts developed for Rossi, Gibernau, Biaggi, and Barros. Don't get me wrong...Stoner had a great year, second year in MotoGP at that, and earned that title. It was a trial and error season and Ducati/Stoner really nailed it and set the bar....which shows when you see how much Rossi/Yamaha stepped up each year after.
As far as Spies.....I think Haga and Corser laid the ground work and Spies came in and refined the bike. Spies was a huge part of making the bike a winner all season long....he brought even more Yamaha factory focus to the WSBK effort showed he could improve the bike every round. I dont think Spies could take a junk bike and have the season he did in 2009. I find it Hard to believe he could develop the bike like that and have the time to learn the tracks every weekend at the same time.....is very good, but not Superman.
I don't think anyone has implied that it was a "junk" bike - but his teammate never accomplished times anywhere close to his. My gut feeling while watching him ride all season was that he out-rode the bike and all its shortcomings on pure willpower and talent, despite how much better the Ducatis and the Hondas were running.. Nothing I can prove. Just a gut feeling. I think his results thus far in his first season in GP as compared to those of his much more experienced teammate - are a pretty good indication that Spies is doing the same again this season.
This is my view as well. I think he also demonstrated as in the AMA series that he is pretty good at sorting/setting up superbikes, without any need for the assistance from valentino rossi that the talented but admittedly less experienced cal crutchlow seemed to require. Given the wherewithal, I expect this ability will eventually translate to motogp.
I agree that Spies got everything out of that bike and then some....he is something special. Winning on a new bike and on tracks he had never seen. I was just saying Haga and Corser layed the ground work with Yamaha on what direction to take the bike from 2008 to 2009......Spies picked up the ball and ran with it once he got there.
