Development Rider

BarryMachine said:

No but these bits are fabrication. Stoner notoriously dramatically changed the setup of the Ducati on his first ride.



And you forgot to add .....





2011 on a new bike with no Rossi input 0 wins ........ so who is the better developer?

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I thought we were talking about stoner, it was you who bought up his wins to try and show he is a great developer. I just showed the decline over the time he was on the bike ,then the sudden rise to glory once again on a bike that had no input from him.



For you to now bring Rossi's lack of wins is nothing more than a diverson from you rather than debate your original point.

I think ive proved my point with facts. I dont expect you to agree and im not surprised you try and change the subject rather than admit defete.

chopperman said:

2 other riders won wc's on ex Rossi bikes.

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The RC211V Evo had very, very little in common with the 2003 spec RC211V Honda that Rossi left behind. The bike Hayden won a title on probably had more in common with the original RC212V than it did Rossi's 211.

Austin said:

The RC211V Evo had very, very little in common with the 2003 spec RC211V Honda that Rossi left behind. The bike Hayden won a title on probably had more in common with the original RC212V than it did Rossi's 211.

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Sorry mate but i dont buy that. If as its suggested by his fans hayden was the test mule at HRC for rossi than i find it unbelievable that all the previous years work was scrapped from a championship winning bike to run in the last year for hayden. Sure the bikes were different but still developed around the years of hard work previous.

Becides that irrelevent really, it been said by many that Rossi / jb developed bikes are very user friendly. That was said of the honda and the yamaha. IO remember Randy Mamola riding the RC211v and saying it felt like a well mannered road bike, similar things were said about the 2010 yamaha M1.

cliché guevara said:

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cliché guevara said:

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agreed.

BarryMachine said:

agreed.

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Of course you agree. You agree with everything that has nothing to do with or does not add anything to the debate. Your the biggest bopper of the board.

You know .... all about this sport, you just worship stoner. Why not just stick to what you know, fiddling will the kiddys instruments..

chopperman said:

Of course you agree. You agree with everything that has nothing to do with or does not add anything to the debate. Your the biggest bopper of the board.

You know .... all about this sport, you just worship stoner. Why not just stick to what you know, fiddling will the kiddys instruments..

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why must you prove that you can contribute even less then?



i'd like to see your contributions to the debate, so far i didn't find anything , just vague thesis that are proven wrong and that you have an urge to insult others.





come on, rossi is responsible for haydens 06 bike?really??

cliché guevara said:

why must you prove that you can contribute even less then?

i'd like to see your contributions to the debate, so far i didn't find anything , just vague thesis that are proven wrong and that you have an urge to insult others.





come on, rossi is responsible for haydens 06 bike?really??

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I note you disagree but fail to point out why I posted reasons fact and state's. I get in return stupid pic's and insults. My urge to insult is nothing more than retaliation in kind i guess, although i fail to see where i have made an insult ?

its about claiming that stoner back developed the duc when in fact its obvious to everyone that it has got more to do with ducati not beeing able to keep up with the others than with their lead rider giving good feedback. i can't imagine that either rossi or stoner (or in fact any of the front runners) are unable to do their job.



i've spent enough time in england to know that " ....." isn't exactly a compliment.





and please don't take offense to that silly picture, I'm sure you can see why its a bit funny to me when you credit rossi for other riders championships.



can we pleeeeease, just drop this?next year will answer all questions for those who believe that stoner is responsible for hondas progress and rossi for ducatis





peace pipe?







edit : 3 years of development between 2003 and 2006 is enough for me to assume that hrc have developed the rc211v into quite a different beast than rossis bike

cliché guevara said:

its about claiming that stoner back developed the duc when in fact its obvious to everyone that it has got more to do with ducati not beeing able to keep up with the others than with their lead rider giving good feedback. i can't imagine that either rossi or stoner (or in fact any of the front runners) are unable to do their job.



i've spent enough time in england to know that " ....." isn't exactly a compliment.





and please don't take offense to that silly picture, I'm sure you can see why its a bit funny to me when you credit rossi for other riders championships.



can we pleeeeease, just drop this?next year will answer all questions for those who believe that stoner is responsible for hondas progress and rossi for ducatis





peace pipe?

edit : 3 years of development between 2003 and 2006 is enough for me to assume that hrc have developed the rc211v into quite a different beast than rossis bike

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You read but take in nothing. You assume rather than read whats said. I said its debatable who is to blame for the Ducati going backwards ,which i showed with race win's in responce to BM's post.

I also proved that casey is very tallented at jumping on a new bike that has had no input from himself and winning (duc 07, HRC 2011)



I dont believe the 06 hrc was so different from rossi's bike that it can be called (quite a different beast). If you have knoledge to prove otherwise than please post and i will concede.I cant see that their was anything that radically different apart from pneumatic valves? Everyone is quick to rubbish an opinion without any fact or constructive debate, you included !

And pleeease, calling BM an ..... ???? You try and put a negitive view on me claiming i have the urge to insult. Then that was because i used the very offensive word "....." ? jeez



The fact is you dont like me for the same reason as many stoner fans . The same reason Jumkie is now under mindless attack. We dont eat the mindless cult crap you all represent. We have the balls to call you lot out unlike some cowards here.

dude i don't have any problem with you, i don't get how this is becoming such a big deal.



i remember 3 different chassis for 2006





i offered the peace pipe and now i'm the same as MA and the other guys you two have problems with?come on....





edit : oh and by the way, i'm a lorenzo/bradl fanboy ...

cliché guevara said:

dude i don't have any problem with you, i don't get how this is becoming such a big deal.



i remember 3 different chassis for 2006





i offered the peace pipe and now i'm the same as MA and the other guys you two have problems with?come on....





edit : oh and by the way, i'm a lorenzo/bradl fanboy ...

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I think you misunderstand mate. Im not trying to suggest Haydens 06 bike was Rossis 03 bike. That would be stupid as we all now things in motorsport move quickly. The debate was about development skills of riders. Now do you believe the Honda would have been as competitive and well mannered to ride in 06 if it were not for the work done by Rossi, JB ect ? Same thing for Lorenzo's M1 ?

Its been suggested that Rossi is not a good developer because of this years Ducati. Is that a fair opinion ? Stoner fans have taken offence in the suggestion that caseys tallents are not in development. The figures show there is a decline in quality of the bike but his fans take offence to this being pointed out. They blame the factory to excuse casey but offer no proof, Is this rational ?



As for grouping you in with MA, BM ect, wtf did you expect with your "....." comment and at the same time failier to offer constructive debate? Im willing to accept the olive branch but dont be surprised if you post .... i poke that branch straight back in your eye



Like you i also remember a couple of chassis changes post rossi on the hrc 990. I seem to remember Pedro got them over Hayden and the only real upgrade given to hayden was the Pnumatic head because pedro didn't want it.

chopperman said:

I think you misunderstand mate. Im not trying to suggest Haydens 06 bike was Rossis 03 bike. That would be stupid as we all now things in motorsport move quickly. The debate was about development skills of riders. Now do you believe the Honda would have been as competitive and well mannered to ride in 06 if it were not for the work done by Rossi, JB ect ? Same thing for Lorenzo's M1 ?

Its been suggested that Rossi is not a good developer because of this years Ducati. Is that a fair opinion ? Stoner fans have taken offence in the suggestion that caseys tallents are not in development. The figures show there is a decline in quality of the bike but his fans take offence to this being pointed out. They blame the factory to excuse casey but offer no proof, Is this rational ?



As for grouping you in with MA, BM ect, wtf did you expect with your "....." comment and at the same time failier to offer constructive debate? Im willing to accept the olive branch but dont be surprised if you post .... i poke that branch straight back in your eye

Like you i also remember a couple of chassis changes post rossi on the hrc 990. I seem to remember Pedro got them over Hayden and the only real upgrade given to hayden was the Pnumatic head because pedro didn't want it.

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ok i'll wear sunglasses from now on !



i think we got each others wires crossed...



what i can agree with is that hayden and lorenzo were lucky to get on bikes that were developed around valentinos wishes and hence got a very well mannered bike.

my point is that i blame neither stoner, nor rossi for ducatis faults .



but i'm sure you would also agree that if stoner made a complaint pre 2011 it was a little easier to say "shut up and ride faster"

thats what bothers a lot of people, as jumkie said it, ducati moved heaven and earth this year compared to last year with little result so far , but in my opinion that can hardly be rossis fault.





can't we all just blame preziosi and old traditions?would be a hell of a lot easier and would save this forum from the inevitable rossi vs stoner doom of the winter months







edit : well , no links or other evidence provided in this post , but i think we all agree ducati made a bigger effort in 2011 to change their bike than in 2010. i think seat adjustment and different (older) forks were the only major modifications in the course of the season whereas in 2011 we have seen a multitude of different chassis designs,materials and even a bike that was supposed to race next season

cliché guevara said:

ok i'll wear sunglasses from now on

!



i think we got each others wires crossed...



what i can agree with is that hayden and lorenzo were lucky to get on bikes that were developed around valentinos wishes and hence got a very well mannered bike.

my point is that i blame neither stoner, nor rossi for ducatis faults .



but i'm sure you would also agree that if stoner made a complaint pre 2011 it was a little easier to say "shut up and ride faster"

thats what bothers a lot of people, as jumkie said it, ducati moved heaven and earth this year compared to last year with little result so far , but in my opinion that can hardly be rossis fault.





can't we all just blame preziosi and old traditions?would be a hell of a lot easier and would save this forum from the inevitable rossi vs stoner doom of the winter months

edit : well , no links or other evidence provided in this post , but i think we all agree ducati made a bigger effort in 2011 to change their bike than in 2010. i think seat adjustment and different (older) forks were the only major modifications in the course of the season whereas in 2011 we have seen a multitude of different chassis designs,materials and even a bike that was supposed to race next season

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I think for the most part we are agreeing with eachother now we have brushed the tribal .... away. You say IF stoner complained. This is the part where i said its debarable. Fact is nobody here knows, yet the pro casey and neg factory view has been banded by his cult to the degee it is now fact and woe betide anybody that wants the debate it. My point on the debate with slight tonge in cheek was maybe they should as you suggested say " shut it and ride faster". As i pointed out he really rode the wheels off the bikes he had nothing to do with ! Coincidence or dont tinker, just stick to what you know ?

to be honest i don't see any difference in commitment regarding 2007/2011 and the years in between, just a period where he looked very very tired and fed up with ducati





bike development as a riders job?for sure not in my mind.factors like factory budget and the people who come up with new suspensions,gear boxes ,engines etc play a bigger role when it comes to bike design

setting up the bike for a particular track with the help of your crew?for sure that is almost completely down to the rider



and concerning the latter there is proof that both rossi and stoner do a good job, countless times where "something was found in sunday warm up"

cliché guevara said:

to be honest i don't see any difference in commitment regarding 2007/2011 and the years in between, just a period where he looked very very tired and fed up with ducati





bike development as a riders job?for sure not in my mind.factors like factory budget and the people who come up with new suspensions,gear boxes ,engines etc play a bigger role when it comes to bike design

setting up the bike for a particular track with the help of your crew?for sure that is almost completely down to the rider



and concerning the latter there is proof that both rossi and stoner do a good job, countless times where "something was found in sunday warm up"

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Yes set up is down to the rider. Its down to him to know what will make the differance and how to convay this to his team in a way they understand what he is asking for. Sometimes whats needed is outside mear settings, this is when the team asks the factory for parts and/or directs the factory into a engineering direction.

Now it is only fair to point out that the duc is quite radical in some areas so may not be that easy to understand. This is why it maybe unfair to judge caseys developing skill based on the duc. But in saying this it has to be noted that his fans have judged rossi based on this bike while disregarding past achievment on more conventional bikes.



I do seem to remember casey pointing in the direction of a carbon swingarm only to do a u-turn later in favor of an ally unit IIRC. I also seem to remember him being in favor of the carbon frame which is now being dropped. Maybe this was pr and i dont suggest for a second casey could have directed ducati to go conventional instead. You sure got the feeling after 07 that the left hand did not know what the right hand was doing.

chopperman said:

Sorry mate but i dont buy that. If as its suggested by his fans hayden was the test mule at HRC for rossi than i find it unbelievable that all the previous years work was scrapped from a championship winning bike to run in the last year for hayden. Sure the bikes were different but still developed around the years of hard work previous. Becides that irrelevent really, it been said by many that Rossi / jb developed bikes are very user friendly. That was said of the honda and the yamaha. IO remember Randy Mamola riding the RC211v and saying it felt like a well mannered road bike, similar things were said about the 2010 yamaha M1.

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My understanding is that the Evo 211V that Hayden rode in 2006 was a completely different motorcycle to any of the other Hondas. Perhaps someone with more insight can help me out here, but I believe that bike featured a completely different chassis and geometry to any of the other Hondas, it was the first bike to be raced featuring Honda's mass centralization theory, which my understanding was that the engine itself was different from the others, more compact, and also less powerful. The bike, famously, had a radically different clutch than any of the other Hondas. It also ran a different exhaust system, which I believe was apart of the mass centralization experiment. It was physically smaller than any of the other Hondas.



I could be missing some information, some of that information might not be entirely accurate, but those are the discussions on the Evo from 2006 and what we found out in 2007 based on Hayden's work on the 2006 Evo, as well as reading the 2006 Motocourse some months ago.



Essentially, everything I've ever read about the Evo was that it was a completely unique one-off. It was a radical redesign to address some of the corner entry issues the 2005 RC211V faced and was then used as a testbed for the RC212V.

Austin said:

My understanding is that the Evo 211V that Hayden rode in 2006 was a completely different motorcycle to any of the other Hondas. Perhaps someone with more insight can help me out here, but I believe that bike featured a completely different chassis and geometry to any of the other Hondas, it was the first bike to be raced featuring Honda's mass centralization theory, which my understanding was that the engine itself was different from the others, more compact, and also less powerful. The bike, famously, had a radically different clutch than any of the other Hondas. It also ran a different exhaust system, which I believe was apart of the mass centralization experiment. It was physically smaller than any of the other Hondas.



I could be missing some information, some of that information might not be entirely accurate, but those are the discussions on the Evo from 2006 and what we found out in 2007 based on Hayden's work on the 2006 Evo, as well as reading the 2006 Motocourse some months ago.



Essentially, everything I've ever read about the Evo was that it was a completely unique one-off. It was a radical redesign to address some of the corner entry issues the 2005 RC211V faced and was then used as a testbed for the RC212V.

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pfff Hayden bopper !



By the way, are you going to silverstone ?

chopperman said:

By the way, are you going to silverstone ?

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I'd be very surprised. Much more likely for Laguna, but even that's quite up in the air.

Austin said:

I'd be very surprised. Much more likely for Laguna, but even that's quite up in the air.

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Pretty sure laguna is out for me. Totally spunked the budget last time but no regrets at all.

See if Levi can smuggle you over in the cargo hold