Joined May 2009
6K Posts | 4K+
Shovel's Club
That is because a Spanish team kicked out another Spanish team (Atl. Madrid vs Barcelona). Had any of these two Spanish teams played Man.City there would be, more likely than not, 3 Spanish teams out of 4 teams in the semi finals. Here are the teams still in the game at the quarter finals stage which should give you a better picture:
Champions League - Quarter Finals:
Spain - Barcelona, Real Madrid, Atletico Madrid
Germany - Wolfburg, Bayern Munich
Portugal - Benfica
France - Paris
England - Manchester City
Europe League
Spain - Atletico Bilbao, Sevilla, Villareal
German - Dortmund
England - Liverpool
Ukraine - Shakhtar
Portugal - Braga
Chezch - Sparta Prague
Again, I think the EPL is the most attractive league right now in Europe concerning soccer but it is far from being the pinnacle of soccer at this point in time.
Also, if you compare the latest results in Euro Cup and World Cup you will not find England in the top 4. They always have high hopes and good players but it just does not work out for them. Same thing with Spain until that glorious run between 2008 and 2012 which ended with an awful, awful 2014 world cup).
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Excellent article, and I agree with the conclusion, there is no "American" parallel. We don't have any major sports that operate the way of top flight soccer. The only reasonable league we can compare are MLB, NFL, NBA, and NHL. No other American organized sport leagues are as equally important as the top flight soccer leagues. Not even our version, MLS (Major League Soccer) because divisions cannot move out of their level, but rather are only feeder series for the "major leagues". No relegation system exists. Even that doesn't apply, there is no "minor league" system for the most popular sport in the U.S. which now is the NFL, the recently televised and much promoted event called the 'The NFL Draft' illustrates this reality. For the NBA and NFL they rely on college sports "conferences" not a "minor league" system, the equivalent of lower "divisions" for international soccer, of which the English system is thee most competitive, bar none. The second and third tiers in England are so competitive in fact that 2nd, 3rd, 4th divisions play 1st divisions in two tournaments (League Cup, FA Cup). Never have we had a minors league baseball team play a majors league, as much as we've never had an NBA team play a college team, nor a NFL team play a college team in a real competition.
Add to this, American top leagues are divided into regional "conferences/divisions" where the teams compete against eachother more within those groups, which then allows them to advance to a playoff berth. We say the "won their conference/division". These conferences/divisions often do not produce the top teams for a playoff. For example, in MLB and NFL, the Western Division can have 5 weak teams or 5 strong teams, but regardless only the winner of that division will advance toward the "penant" of their "league". In baseball, "American League" vs "National League" (incidentally each of these two have a significant rules difference, pitchers don't bat in the AL). The "wild card" (the team with the next best record within the "league" is seeded to advance in the playoff.)
The winner of the respective sport is then determined by this "tournament" playoff. There is no guarantee the two teams in the final are the two top teams because sometimes the two best teams just happen to be in the same conference, or division, or "league".
Even in the "Champions League" tournament being played out currently, the finalists of 4 teams, the two best teams (Bayer Munich vs Atletico) must play eachother in one of the legs, while the two weaker teams (Real Madrid vs Manchester City) play eachother. It turned out, the three strongest teams happened to be in the same vein by luck of a draw (they don't "seed" the teams like we do in American sports). Yes, that's right, in practical terms they draw numbers out of a hat. Which means two #1 seeds can play eachother. And in a way it happened, Atletico eliminated Barcelona, conceivably two #1s, and now Bayer Munich vs Atletico, again two #1s. While in the other leg it's like #3 vs #7. But that's the nature of tournaments / playoff systems. In America college sports, the system is infinitely more complicated and less transparent.
So really there is no American example we can compare to what Leicester City have accomplished. None.
I agree to some extend but yet teams from other leagues have such a hard time beating Villareal, Sevilla, Valencia, Bilbao - how do you explain that? If the only two teams are Real Madrid and Barcelona (who just lost a 12 point advantage in 4 games (losses against Real Sociedad, Atl. Madrid, Valencia, Real Madrid) shouldn't the EPL teams dominate the tournaments or at least be represented with more teams?
Again, I do believe the EPL is the most attractive leagues to watch 100% but the best right now, no way.
I live in Houston but I was born and raised in Switzerland and came to Houston 12 years ago where I still follow soccer very closely. So I do know European Soccer very well and I know what is going on.
I also know that the Champions League is not a ‘league’ although it has (and in the past more so) some ‘league’ elements where consistency and competitiveness is rewarded. So yes I do take these tournaments as a reflection of the leagues when it comes to strength. The 4th league in Switzerland might be as competitive as the EPL with each team as strong as the other it does not meant they are the pinnacle of soccer so although I agree with you that EPL is likely the most competitive league in Europe I do not agree that it is the pinnacle of soccer.
I agree with you that the EPL is probably the most competitive league, I agree with you that the money is spread more evenly among the teams in the EPL compared to Spain and other leagues but this is a rather 'new' phenomenon which I hope other leagues will adopt. I agree that more often than not if you put money on either Madrid or Barcelona to win the league you will win that bet just as it has been with ManU. Man.City, Arsenal, and Chelsea not too long ago. In England this changed when the new distribution of money kicked in and when the Watfords, Southhamptons, Swanseas have been able to pay for international players with amounts that lots of other leagues could not afford (with the exception of the big teams). With all the competitiveness that you speak of that shows that EPL is pinnacle they EPL should be much better represented in those tournaments. And yet if you look at the 2016 quarter finals stages of Europe League or Champions league, out of 16 teams 6 are from Spain, 3 from Germany, 2 Portugal, 2 England and one team each from France, Ukraine, Czech.
You might not think that participants in an European tournament reflect the strength of the league and that is your choise whereas I do see it as a reflection of it.
P.S. I only mentioned three because there was no need to mention more. I can probably mention all if not most teams in the Primary and a lot of the teams in 'Segunda'. I am very well versed in Spanish soccer so not naming but those three does not mean I only know those three.
P.S. The term “El Clasico” is far more than just because there is nothing else to talk about in Spanish soccer but I am not expecting you go understand or agree with it.
Yeah so Barcelona aren't in the last four.
You forget that a few yrs ago English teams dominated in Europe.
In terms of quality the Spanish league is on a par. In terms of Entertainment the EPL is second to none. The German and Italian leagues are a farce. The French league even more so.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
In that article, it suggests that winning offers huge cash rewards. Is that kind of like F1 when they divvy up the pie at the end of the season. If so, is it the kind of money that will allow them to stay in the upper echelon by signing top talent and have good management. Or is this a once in a lifetime achievement and they will sink back into oblivion
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Thank you for your well thought out and written response.
It is true, "competitiveness within a league" does not calibrate it's overall level. In terms of logic, this is correct, in terms of level amongst the European leagues, there is no question the English League 'as a whole' is thee most competitive amongst the European league. Do you understand the distinction I'm making, I think you do. And your example of the 4th Swiss division makes an excellent point, however, I'm saying not only is the EPL competitive amongst it's league "fixures" (a misnomer given relegation) but I made the point the English Premier 'league' (all 20 teams as a unit, that is what a 'league' IS after all) is the most competitive amongst its European counterparts.
You say yourself, if you bet on a team like Barcelona and Real Madrid it would be a good bet, it certainly has for the last 60 years, these two have virtual split every Spanish "league" title since. Given your ample understanding of this reality, it shouldn't be difficult then for you to understand what a weak competition is the Spanish "league" is for these two teams, this has consequence! They show up to the "Champions League" tournament virtually unscathed. Their entire season consists of 4 competitive matches: 2 against Atletico, 2 against eachother. They show up to these European tournaments fresh as daisies. Meanwhile, the English teams have 38 "El Clasicos". Add to that two fierce league cup tournaments were a MK Dons can beat a Manchester United (the richest team in the world) where a Shrewsbury Town can beat a Leicester City (sorry Arrabi), hence the unique English Football term: "Giant Kilkers". The Spanish "league" is no comparison, none at all, and you should know better than me!
The English teams show up to these European tournaments mamed with injuries and fatigue from a daily war, the top Spanish teams show up with scratch marks on their shoes from a scuffle with an annoying rodent. That is what your picture of Champions League and Europa tournament list is not illustrating. Not to mention, it's a competition that happens the year 'after' these teams qualified in their respective domestic league. Put Leicester City today against any of the last 4 finalists, throw in Barca if you like. The only actual 'knock out' game is the final. So even that is unlike for example our NFL playoff, loser go home. Which means, English teams must manage their domestic competition wilst Barcelona and Real Madrid have no such burden. These two virtually show up to their domestic "league", score 5 goals, everybody concludes how great Messi and Ronaldo are playing with other superstar against a bunch of scrubs. The Ballon d'Or is meaningless when English players have to fight and scrap for every goal against formidable competition wilst as José Mourinho said (and you yourself expressed) showing up to the pitch is a guaranteed win for Barcelona and Real Madrid. There is something inherently wrong with that system, certainly I wouldn't call it a "league". But more to the point being made here, as a 20 team unit--a league, the Spanish are weaker than the English Premier League.
Joined Nov 2015
2K Posts | 582+
A caravan on an island
Winning the prem is worth megabucks circa £90 million, they have entry into next seasons champions league which can draw top players to the club although who would want to change the hard working squad they've got? LOL ! They will want to strengthen themselves and that money can buy from 2 to 4 quality players, maybe more if Ranieri is clever in the transfer market. There is history of a club disappearing into obscurity, Blackburn rovers won in 95 , subsided by walkersteels money, they never challenged again and now play in the championship.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Povol, the "championship" Daniboy refers to is the equivalent of the 'Minors AAA ball" (the 2nd tier). That division is called "the Championship" for short, also known as the "English Football League" sometimes called the 'League Championship". Too much to write (yeah imagine that, me shying away from writing) but prize money is distributed for position. When a team is promoted to the top tier (called the Premier League) they get a bunch of money. This is, like you say, to invest it to "stay up". But the competition and parity is so fierce that in reality the two top tiers are very competitive, that is, the top 40 teams can easily compete on almost level terms. It would be like saying Alabama State could compete with the Seattle Seahawks and hold their own. The prize money for the Spanish "league" doesn't compare to the English system, their's is just stupid, not even worth discussing.
Joined Feb 2007
11K Posts | 2K+
Tennessee
Yea, if they want to stay at or near the top, they will have to make moves. 5000 to 1 shots dont repeat, or come close to repeating. I almost wish i followed it to see how many bizarre things happened to put them in this place, or did they just outplay everyone. Usually even a 200 to 1 dog has a long list of weird .... happen for the events to unfold but 5000 to 1 is basically the bookies saying its impossible
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
I think that is what makes this an astonishing exceedingly extraordinary accomplishment, very little oddities happened. In a word, they out worked everyone in terms of sheer determination. I am aware this is illusive and hardly a quantifiable way to describe it, but think of it this way, imagine a team of average players (actually rejects of other clubs, and I'm not kidding here) all being "Charlie Hustles". Imagine every single point of contention regardless importance during a game Leicester players approached it as if it were their last and everything hinged on that single play, the picture you should have is Pete Rose sliding head first into first base in the 1st inning! Last year's title winners (Chelsea) imploded, but in this league there are 6 fantastic teams, then 8-10 excellent teams. Even if one drops off you still have to contend with 10 other great teams on any given 38 matches. The top spending clubs still were at the top of the table, with the exception of Chelsea. Manchester City, Arsenal, and Tottenham were all within title contention most of the season as would be expected. Manchester United, normally a top 4 team was in 5th only because Leicester City occupied 1st place. Otherwise the table would have been Tottenham, Arsenal, Manchester City, Manchester United, all very expected and normal.
Last year Southampton were on pace to make a similar impression as did Leicester. They were leading the table half way through the season, but Southampton have lost key players to these top teams over the last 3 years. No kidding, for 3 years they lost top talent, going to Liverpool who almost won the league a couple years ago and others to Manchester United, who are always within contention. Nobody really wanted Leicester players because none were individually that good. Leicester retained most of their players, with a few exceptions. But their best players were not poached to top teams as what happened to Southampton. This is the reality of the league where players can be lured away for big money to your rivals twice during the year, which is called a "transfer window". I can only speculate what might have been for Southampton.
So no, nothing crazy or odd. This wasn't a one-off Miracle on Ice. As I said in my response to you, what ever and how ever it is described to put this accomplishment into perspective, it will sound exaggerated. The thing is it happened.
Edit: if you're looking for stuff that fell in Leicester's favor, here are a few things that helped, they didn't suffer major injuries, very important for the EPL, because one of the major reasons the top teams stay top is because they have depth. Also, the top teams generally have more matches in European competitions, Leicester had none.
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Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Ah - the house of cards that Jack built. That era was characterised by a series of benefactors, many of them local or with some affiliation with the clubs, willing to invest but in the case of Rovers, saddling themselves with an unsustainable wage/bonus structure that ballooned and lacking a long term business plan beyond the expectation that the club would become self funding. The Walker investment developed Ewood Park, purchased that outstanding team but when he passed away in 2000 the trustees of the estate in the channel islands pulled the funding. In my opinion, the fall of the once great Leeds United is more tragic.
Interestingly, when we gained promotion, the owners announced - amid much incredulous hilarity in the city - a five year plan, pledging that we would be a top five club before the end of the decade. Survival last season was essential given the windfall/bonanza of TV money. We're not talking oil money but as Mick D will no doubt testify our Thai owners are very, very wealthy, and they rub shoulders with royalty. The return has been huge both in business terms, for King Power and for their own standing. The family have a programme of sustained systematic reinvestment and they aren't going anywhere...and neither are we. This club will continue to build and with it, its international stock and its brand name.
All this attention is strangely disconcerting. You don't support Leicester to chase trophies and success - which is why this means so much. This is an authentic club...a passionate fiercely loyal rootsy, blue collar, working class fan base...but this is a game changer, it's all in the process of transformation. Near liquidation and relegation to League 1 was heartbreaking, and I never want to go back there, Ultimately though, there may come a point when I fondly recall the days that we were dogshite.
Joined Jul 2006
11K Posts | 291+
Texas
Joined Apr 2015
6K Posts | 5K+
NJ
Sadly their Facebook likes went from 476,000 to over 3 million with their success.
The bandwagon is rolling.
Great story though regardless of how it changes the fanbase.
Nothing like it in my lifetime that comes close to matching it. As a I guess casual Arsenal fan, while I'd have liked to see Arsenal win the league, seeing Leicester win was the far better story to get behind. Glad for them. The whole season was wonderful from their winning the league to the Chelsea meltdown under Mourinho. A season for the ages.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
And in reverse, think of Southampton's accomplishments last season (a team that was in the 3rd tier just a few years ago and was looking at bankruptcy (the Brits like to call it "administration" a euphemism for saying you're ...... ). As I said above, Southampton were 1-2 during the Premier League for half the season last year, no small feat. But they succumbed to the institutionalized system of poaching players to richer clubs (that is truly gay). Without it who knows how far they could have gone, as I'm of the opinion Ronald Koeman is the class of the field, maybe now only second to Claudio Ranieri.
Also while I'm at it, think of Bournemouth and Watford. Unbelievable accomplishments, which of course will be overshadowed by Leicester's extraordinary season, though rightful so.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
There are also major cash rewards for the European tournament called "Champions League" (which is NOT a "league").
Povol, I mentioned the inherent problem with the European tournament in question, for example, no seeding, a blind draws (yes, plural, more than once during the tournament), playoffs a year after qualifing for the contest, the affect on teams who must compete in an actual formidable league as opposed to teams who compete against a bunch of scrub 2nd tier teams in their domestic series, etc.
Check this out. Two teams just played to decide who advances to the final:
Team A beat Team B in the first game 1-0.
Team B beat Team A in the second game 2-1.
The contest was not decided by penalty kicks.
Without any more info, which team do you think advanced to the final?
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The one that scores more away goles. Goles scored away are given more merit.
Atletico de Madrid beat Bayern Munchen 2-2 on away goles. Makes perfect sence to the word, just not the US.
So, in the Champions League final there is one La Liga team and quite possibly another, Real Madrid. They play Manchester City tomorrow. The first game in Manchester was a goalless draw, tie. So if the Madrid match ends in a tie with goals scored. Manchester City goes through.
Only the US doesn't know futbol/fussbal/football math.
Atletico de Madrid beat Bayern Munchen 2-2 on away goles. Makes perfect sence to the word, just not the US.
So, in the Champions League final there is one La Liga team and quite possibly another, Real Madrid. They play Manchester City tomorrow. The first game in Manchester was a goalless draw, tie. So if the Madrid match ends in a tie with goals scored. Manchester City goes through.
Only the US doesn't know futbol/fussbal/football math.
