Championship & Penalty points system.

With raging debate on penalty points. How well do you think that system has worked ?


Is their a better or fairer method ?


 


I think a totting up system is a good idea, but i think the system motogp has is largely ineffective. The later into the season we go the less effective that point system is. Say a rider picks up 2 points at Motegi, how is that a punishment with only 1 race to go. Would it be fairer and more effective if championship points were deducted ? or less penalty points to be sanctioned. so 1 point = back of the grid. 2 points start from pit lane, 3 or 4 points = race ban.


 


Then if we were to deduct championship points what would be the scale to make it a meaningful punishment. Docking someone 1 point who is way ahead in the championship is not the same as docking 1 point where a championship place rests on a point.


 


Edit..


just in case anyone is unsure of the penalty point system we have this season.


 


Up to 10 penalty points can be imposed, with sanctions applied at

certain thresholds. Any rider reaching four penalty points starts the

next race from the back of the grid, while seven points lead to a

pitlane start and 10 points a race ban.

chopperman

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With raging debate on penalty points. How well do you think that system has worked ?


Is their a better or fairer method ?


 


I think a totting up system is a good idea, but i think the system motogp has is largely ineffective. The later into the season we go the less effective that point system is. Say a rider picks up 2 points at Motegi, how is that a punishment with only 1 race to go. Would it be fairer and more effective if championship points were deducted ? or less penalty points to be sanctioned. so 1 point = back of the grid. 2 points start from pit lane, 3 or 4 points = race ban.


 


Then if we were to deduct championship points what would be the scale to make it a meaningful punishment. Docking someone 1 point who is way ahead in the championship is not the same as docking 1 point where a championship place rests on a point.

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Jumkie, will you give it a break, oh wait

Haha now u gonna claim Chops is one of my sock puppets? Pov attempt a debate now and then buddy.


Good question Chops. I think it is a great idea. Its like our drivers lic. We all understand the point system that has a cumulative aspect to keep a ledger of transgressions and patterns in driving habits. The problem with Dorna's RD seems to be the mysterious rationale and consistency in which it is applied. Admittedly this is the issue they sought to address when this plan was devised. Though it is a very difficult task to assign a point value to incidents that can be wildly debated. Incidents are not black and white.


So I think if they reduced the points from 10 to say 4. This would be more of a deterrent as each point would have more weight and meaning. And perhaps they could publish examples of infractions.

I think we need to kill Marquez, or at the very least ban him from the sport all together. Maybe we can let him live under the stipulation that he never rides a bike again. Let me get out a ....... crayon and draw you a picture rainman. There is no debate, its a non starter.

System. Ha.

Rog,


 


IMO the deduction of championship points is the better option as there is a clear deterrent as it may well effect you at years end, but then the converse is that a rider with little chance (ie. a lower placed CRT) could effectively have nothing to lose so to speak and for them, championship points mean little. The basic problem with MGP is that many who are there will never be championship contenders and so for them, a deduction of championship points is somewhat (or may well be) meaningless.


 


To me, there needs to be a medium area where some offences carry set penalties no matter circuit or situation (ie. cutting across the blend line as did DP at any time, race or practice will add 10 seconds to your race time etc).


 


Other offences such as the MM/JL incident at T1 for which there has been a robust forum discussion are different as they are subjective to a degree and as such, harder to determine a set penalty (irrespective of our opinions, these type of incidents involving collisions etc are totally subjective). In this regard I am not so sure that there is a clear cut way short of a 'judiciary' type as seen in many sports where a person is 'charged' by (in this case) Race Direction and fronts a panel of people which must include as a minimum one recently ex-rider, one member of the FIM and a legal person with motorsports experience. They hear the arguments, review footage and full telemetry and make their judgements based on the information available and MUST publish their findings and any subsequent penalties. But even then the panel is themselves subject to their own subjective views etc but at least with a panel, there is no sole arbiter and thus any perception of bias should be diminished. 


 


But, as with general western justice, all findings of the panel should be able to be reviewed and/or appealed.


 


Now, that does leave open a 'how to penalise for a severe on track incident during the race' situation and my answer is simply to not penalise unless the issue is clear cut, else you may punish a rider only to find out that the situation did not warrant it. In this case, to me all penalties should be applied post-race but can include exclusion etc and the often overlooked and rarely used race suspensions.


 


 


 


 


Gaz

Great points by gaz and jumk. It is a very tricky thing to keep fair for all riders and maintain it being a meaningful punishment for all riders and at either end of the season.


 


Pov, is everything about Marquez with you now ?  I remember you being Nickys biggest fan back in 06. Come 07 you switched to stoner and nicky never got a mention. Now its all about Marquez.  The Irony is you once called all Rossi fans glory hunters haha


 


Just so you know, this thread was not intended to be about any particular rider, but more the new points system and whether it works as intended.

chopperman

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Great points by gaz and jumk. It is a very tricky thing to keep fair for all riders and maintain it being a meaningful punishment for all riders and at either end of the season.


 


Pov, is everything about Marquez with you now ?  I remember you being Nickys biggest fan back in 06. Come 07 you switched to stoner and nicky never got a mention. Now its all about Marquez.  The Irony is you once called all Rossi fans glory hunters haha


 


Just so you know, this thread was not intended to be about any particular rider, but more the new points system and whether it works as intended.

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But it is here because certain members think Marquez should be banned, get points, keel hauled and every other form of capital punishment known to man, for an incident Jorge says he was as much as fault in.

Jumkie

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So I think if they reduced the points from 10 to say 4. This would be more of a deterrent as each point would have more weight and meaning. And perhaps they could publish examples of infractions.

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I suspect, if they reduced the points from 10 down to 4, Race Direction would become very hesitant about awarding penalty points.  Basically, the ethos of RD would seem to be: any weekend where we don't hand out penalties and punishments is a good weekend... so let's always have good weekends.


 


On the subject of publishing, Kropotkin posted a list (complete with info about each punishment) of riders who have penalty points (after Aragon?).  I don't remember whether he did that off his own bat, or the article was based on a Dorna press release.  The interesting thing about the list was that Rivas' name wasn't on it.  Apparently doing something stupid enough to get you a 2 race ban doesn't accrue any carry over points.

the-insider

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But it is here because certain members think Marquez should be banned, get points, keel hauled and every other form of capital punishment known to man, for an incident Jorge says he was as much as fault in.

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That maybe your opinion but it's wrong. This is the first season we have had such a system in place so its only right and proper we debate its effectiveness or whether there could be a better system. Sometimes by having heavier penalty's in place like 1 pt = start at the back RD would not give them for ambiguous reasons.  I didn't want to talk MM here but i see i am going to be forced into it. Far from hang MM, if that 1 point for the DP sensor touch meant a back of the grid start, would RD been so keen to impose it ? i say they wouldn't have.

Rising Sun

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I suspect, if they reduced the points from 10 down to 4, Race Direction would become very hesitant about awarding penalty points.  Basically, the ethos of RD would seem to be: any weekend where we don't hand out penalties and punishments is a good weekend... so let's always have good weekends.


 


On the subject of publishing, Kropotkin posted a list (complete with info about each punishment) of riders who have penalty points (after Aragon?).  I don't remember whether he did that off his own bat, or the article was based on a Dorna press release.  The interesting thing about the list was that Rivas' name wasn't on it.  Apparently doing something stupid enough to get you a 2 race ban doesn't accrue any carry over points.

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And i think that's a good thing. The points would be a meaningful punishment but due to their severity not handed out on a whim.

chopperman

3651561382534003

That maybe your opinion but it's wrong. This is the first season we have had such a system in place so its only right and proper we debate its effectiveness or whether there could be a better system. Sometimes by having heavier penalty's in place like 1 pt = start at the back RD would not give them for ambiguous reasons.  I didn't want to talk MM here but i see i am going to be forced into it. Far from hang MM, if that 1 point for the DP sensor touch meant a back of the grid start, would RD been so keen to impose it ? i say they wouldn't have.

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I don't think it is wrong, surely the best way to ..... whether a system has or has not worked,  is to evaluate it at the end of the season. The reason we have been discussing the points system is because of Marquez and last weekend.

the-insider

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I don't think it is wrong, surely the best way to ..... whether a system has or has not worked,  is to evaluate it at the end of the season. The reason we have been discussing the points system is because of Marquez and last weekend.

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I said your opinion was wrong because i saw it as you implying it was a witch hunt against MM , by imposing stiffer penalty's like 4 pts instead of 10 was for the sole purpose to get mm banned. That is wrong because as i said, stiffer penalty's would not be given so easily. It would also act as a real deterrent for dangerous riding, regardless of rider.

Isn't it funny, you start a thread asking members to use their brains and come up with original ideas, but instead they would rather ignore the thread (post to view count ratio) or try and direct it's path into the same debate raging in many other threads. Rather than come up with there own original ideas, they would rather hang off small points from someone else's ideas. It's such a shame this place has become so mundane and predictable.


I of course exclude jumkie and gaz from those remarks who actually took the time to post their idea's and opinions on THE THREAD SUBJECT.

Calm down buddy, I am not at work this week, so I have time to post, though I have no great thoughts on the points system, I didn't try and steer it in any direction, I just said it was inspired by the latest Marquez incident, I am sure others will add intelligent posts when they have the time.


 


To add, my thread has a lower percentage rate (posts per view) than yours, and has had far more .... on it in comparison, I don't see why you are getting upset.

the-insider

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Calm down buddy, I am not at work this week, so I have time to post, though I have no great thoughts on the points system, I didn't try and steer it in any direction, I just said it was inspired by the latest Marquez incident, I am sure others will add intelligent posts when they have the time.


 


To add, my thread has a lower percentage rate (posts per view) than yours, and has had far more .... on it in comparison, I don't see why you are getting upset.

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upset ?  i'm mealy pointing out a fact that members are reluctant to post their original idea's.  Your thread started with what was seen as arrogant statements from a complete anonymous stranger to the forum. That probably turned off many from posting, but i still took you at face value and participated.

I was being constructive, and saying I wasn't trying to steer it away, as you suggested, And why complain that people are not posting when there is virtually no one on line, and most views were probably guests, I wasn't complaining about a lack of posts on my thread as you were,  I was just saying chill, If my arrogance put people off, so be it, I think you attacking people before they even post and saying the forum is mundane and predictable is far worse, after your comment I had a good think and came up with an idea for the point system, but I seriously cant be bothered now.

the-insider

3651641382540253

I was being constructive, and saying I wasn't trying to steer it away, as you suggested, And why complain that people are not posting when there is virtually no one on line, and most views were probably guests, I wasn't complaining about a lack of posts on my thread as you were,  I was just saying chill, If my arrogance put people off, so be it, I think you attacking people before they even post and saying the forum is mundane and predictable is far worse, after your comment I had a good think and came up with an idea for the point system, but I seriously cant be bothered now.

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I said "seen as" regarding your thread. A fair summary given the immediate reply's you received. This thread has been up long enough for most to see it, after all they have still posted in the threads arguing about mm. My dig was more at the usual protagonists than yourself. I think i am more acquainted with the forum and member style than you, unless of course you are a longer serving member than your account suggests.


I did not intend this thread to be another marquez is good or evil thread, i most definitely did not intend it to become a thread about you.


Now if you do have opinions on the current point system or idea's of a better one then please feel free to share, if you wish. If not i'm sure there are plenty of other threads for you to enjoy.

With F1 they have a former racing driver as a steward at each race and they help the local stewards decide on the severity of the 'crime' and the punishment handed out. Maybe motgp could bring in a similar format, have former riders judge the incidents as they are the people who have literally been there and done that, it gives them an insight into it that most others don't have.


 


One thing though, you have to be consistent with the penalties, and if you want them to work they have to have some real punishment behind them. It's no good handing out a point here or there if nothing much is going to come of it. If you know you can get away with several incidents before anything happens to you there is no incentive to avoid trouble is there? So yeah, make one point worth more, or drop the whole points idea and just award things like ride throughs or grid penalties as F1 does.


 


The biggest thing is the fairness aspect, you have to be even handed in these things, if you can do that then it should work well. Sadly it always seems some people get hit harder than others. E.g. in F1, Maldonado, Grosjean and Perez have all suffered because they have a reputation for being naughty boys one way or the other, they do seem to pick up penalties sometimes just because it's them, not because they've done something serious at that time.


 


No system is fool proof but I don't think the points thing has worked as far as I can tell this year. That's my veiw for what it's worth anyway.

Great post Lyria with some insightful idea's. I think having ex racers judge or help to judge is a good idea and could result in more consistency. I also share your opinion that the amount of points needed before a real penalty is given makes the current system a bit of a mockery.