Burgess, Stoner, Rossi, Capirossi, Bayliss re: 800 Ducati

Keshav · Jun 1, 2011

Burgess:

Casey rode the Ducati in an oversteer situation going into the corner, so the bike would start to slide, which made it start to stand up and he went. He was getting it turned with brake and throttle, but that's an awful risky way to do it." Basically Stoner would spin the rear, then ease off the throttle so the tire gripped, making the bike stand up onto the fatter part of the tire, thus giving him grip for full acceleration. In other words, he used a near-highside technique to lift the bike very quickly.

Rossi:

"We cannot try and turn the Ducati into a Yamaha because the bikes are on the opposite sides of the world! We can improve the Ducati and adapt it to me, but it will always be different to the M1."

Stoner:

On the Ducati I had to go much tighter into the corner, keep the bike tight and then get out of the corner as quick as I could. The Ducati moves around a lot more than the Honda. With the Honda I feel more contact with the rear tire, especially exiting slower corners, so it's easier to ride. I feel really smooth on the Honda."

Capirossi:

"The bike doesn't turn. It's impossible to ride it like Casey -- no way! I've tried, but no way! It's impossible to use the system he used -- it's a unique system."

Bayliss:

We had a couple of days at Mugello and I tried to ride the way Casey rides and that definitely wasn't for me. The [800cc] bike didn't work anything like the 990 I raced at Valencia in 2006 -- mid-corner turning was the problem. The lap times were pretty good but there was nothing else we could do without a completely different chassis. I like a nice, comfortable bike that's fun to ride, not something that feels like it wants to blow your head off every corner."

povol · Jun 1, 2011

Keshav said:
Burgess:

Casey rode the Ducati in an oversteer situation going into the corner, so the bike would start to slide, which made it start to stand up and he went. He was getting it turned with brake and throttle, but that's an awful risky way to do it." Basically Stoner would spin the rear, then ease off the throttle so the tire gripped, making the bike stand up onto the fatter part of the tire, thus giving him grip for full acceleration. In other words, he used a near-highside technique to lift the bike very quickly.

Rossi:

"We cannot try and turn the Ducati into a Yamaha because the bikes are on the opposite sides of the world! We can improve the Ducati and adapt it to me, but it will always be different to the M1."

Stoner:

On the Ducati I had to go much tighter into the corner, keep the bike tight and then get out of the corner as quick as I could. The Ducati moves around a lot more than the Honda. Withe Honda I feel more contact with the rear tire, especially exiting slower corners, so it's easier to ride. I feel really smooth on the Honda."

Capirossi:

"The bike doesn't turn. It's impossible to ride it like Casey -- no way! I've tried, but no way! It's impossible to use the system he used -- it's a unique system."

Bayliss:

We had a couple of days at Mugello and I tried to ride the way Casey rides and that definitely wasn't for me. The [800cc] bike didn't work anything like the 990 I raced at Valencia in 2006 -- mid-corner turning was the problem. The lap times were pretty good but there was nothing else we could do without a completely different chassis. I like a nice, comfortable bike that's fun to ride, not something that feels like it wants to blow your head off every corner."

In other words, Casey's concern for safety was overpowered by his will to win. Or you could say he has more balls than brains. It was not his one off unique riding style that made the Ducati a winner, it was his willingness to do something different to accommodate the characteristics of an ill handling bike.

ptk50 · Jun 1, 2011

povol said:
In other words, Casey's concern for safety was overpowered by his will to win. Or you could say he has more balls than brains. It was not his one off unique riding style that made the Ducati a winner, it was his willingness to do something different to accommodate the characteristics of an ill handling bike.

I think I'd say it differently - in that CS had the BALLs to try what his BRAIN told him was/ could be possible - well possible some, but not all of the time - hence WIN or DNF. For me that certainly sends a very positive message about CS's riding and racing skills. The story keeps taking the question back to: was CS able to communicate the handling issues back to Ducati - and if so did they listen to him - understand him - or not. It looks (to me) like the answers to both questions were probably "NO" - CS could not objectively convince Duc of the issues AND they preferred to pay more attention to the Wins than the (CS feedback on) causes of the DNF's. Lack of technical clout from CS and/ or technical arrogance from Ducati???? In the end Ducati did recognize thst something really was wrong - enter JB and VR. Will they put the Duc back at the front??? Looks to me like they are moving in the right direction - wait for later in the season

Keshav · Jun 1, 2011

ptk50 said:
I think I'd say it differently - in that CS had the BALLs to try what his BRAIN told him was/ could be possible - well possible some, but not all of the time - hence WIN or DNF. For me that certainly sends a very positive message about CS's riding and racing skills. The story keeps taking the question back to: was CS able to communicate the handling issues back to Ducati - and if so did they listen to him - understand him - or not. It looks (to me) like the answers to both questions were probably "NO" - CS could not objectively convince Duc of the issues AND they preferred to pay more attention to the Wins than the (CS feedback on) causes of the DNF's. Lack of technical clout from CS and/ or technical arrogance from Ducati???? In the end Ducati did recognize thst something really was wrong - enter JB and VR. Will they put the Duc back at the front??? Looks to me like they are moving in the right direction - wait for later in the season

There were two other good quotes regarding this. In so many words Rossi said, Ducati's approach was all about power, neglecting small details that affect handling.

The other was from a critical Burgess, who said in effect that Ducati's response to Stoner's input was to try and mask chassis and engine deficiencies by way of electronics.

It's worth saying that a large factor in Stoner's favor - especially in 2007, was his youth and lack of serious injury, which permitted him to audaciously risk all in a way that older riders wouldn't attempt to emulate, even if they thought they could.

mylexicon · Jun 1, 2011

According to a Guareschi interview a few months back, Stoner rides according to the old school theory that the rider should minimize the amount of time the bike is leaned over. Simple enough theory, but Ducati were not able to give Stoner what he needed so he forced the bike to turn with masterful manipulation of the controls. Casey's style is unique b/c many of the riders have reverted to their 250cc/600cc roots to meet the demands of 21L 800cc competition. According to Guareschi, Hayden and Rossi both ride corner speed style, and no one in the Ducati family is able to replicate Stoner's style.

I wonder how the 1000cc rule will affect Stoner. Cursory analysis suggests that 1000cc should help Casey Stoner b/c he rides old school, but extra torque will make corner exit more tricky since the bike will have a propensity to slide or to wheelie which will affect drive. Electronic trickery may be even more important (to control torque) in the 1000cc era. I guess we don't have long to wait until all of our questions are answered.

levigarrett · Jun 1, 2011

ptk50 said:
I think I'd say it differently - in that CS had the BALLs to try what his BRAIN told him was/ could be possible - well possible some, but not all of the time - hence WIN or DNF. For me that certainly sends a very positive message about CS's riding and racing skills. The story keeps taking the question back to: was CS able to communicate the handling issues back to Ducati - and if so did they listen to him - understand him - or not. It looks (to me) like the answers to both questions were probably "NO" - CS could not objectively convince Duc of the issues AND they preferred to pay more attention to the Wins than the (CS feedback on) causes of the DNF's. Lack of technical clout from CS and/ or technical arrogance from Ducati???? In the end Ducati did recognize thst something really was wrong - enter JB and VR. Will they put the Duc back at the front??? Looks to me like they are moving in the right direction - wait for later in the season

How long will you continue with this idea that Casey was unable to communicate to Ducati that their bike was a steaming pile of .....? Were all of the other failing Ducati riders (both satellite and factory) also completely unable to speak "motorcycle" to the Ducati engineers? We're all aware of how you'd like to portray this but the fact of the matter is that JB himself spoke regarding Ducati's approach to rider input and it's effect on the bike's development.

Do you recall how Melandri's criticisms were dealt with? Ducati is only now taking action to fix their machine. They have only just begun to admit their problems and address them constructively. It had nothing to do with Casey's english skills. Absent his talent, I think things would have been addressed sooner. Casey was simply good enough to keep the Ducati arrogance in place with his results. Along comes Rossi who simply cannot operate the machine well enough to find the top 7 on a good day, and all of a sudden, we learn that the Ducati is virtually unridable....

How convenient for everyone involved.

BarryMachine · Jun 1, 2011

mylexicon said:
According to a Guareschi interview a few months back, Stoner rides according to the old school theory that the rider should minimize the amount of time the bike is leaned over. Simple enough theory, but Ducati were not able to give Stoner what he needed so he forced the bike to turn with masterful manipulation of the controls. Casey's style is unique b/c many of the riders have reverted to their 250cc/600cc roots to meet the demands of 21L 800cc competition. According to Guareschi, Hayden and Rossi both ride corner speed style, and no one in the Ducati family is able to replicate Stoner's style.

I wonder how the 1000cc rule will affect Stoner. Cursory analysis suggests that 1000cc should help Casey Stoner b/c he rides old school, but extra torque will make corner exit more tricky since the bike will have a propensity to slide or to wheelie which will affect drive. Electronic trickery may be even more important (to control torque) in the 1000cc era. I guess we don't have long to wait until all of our questions are answered.

I've said it before ....... Stoners style is prevalent in Aussie dirt track kids ....... though I suspect Stoner was better at it than most

Though I still don't think they get it ..... yes its throttle and lean/ body position ...... but the brake ...... meh not so critical as handy.

Mr Squiggle · Jun 1, 2011

ptk50 said:
I think I'd say it differently - in that CS had the BALLs to try what his BRAIN told him was/ could be possible - well possible some, but not all of the time - hence WIN or DNF. For me that certainly sends a very positive message about CS's riding and racing skills. The story keeps taking the question back to: was CS able to communicate the handling issues back to Ducati - and if so did they listen to him - understand him - or not. It looks (to me) like the answers to both questions were probably "NO" - CS could not objectively convince Duc of the issues AND they preferred to pay more attention to the Wins than the (CS feedback on) causes of the DNF's. Lack of technical clout from CS and/ or technical arrogance from Ducati???? In the end Ducati did recognize thst something really was wrong - enter JB and VR. Will they put the Duc back at the front??? Looks to me like they are moving in the right direction - wait for later in the season

ABSOLUTE RUBBISH......you obviously are in complete denial.

I prefer to believe the guys who actually work on these bikes than some dork living in fantasy land and sprouting crap on the internet....apparently you reckon Ramon Forcada and Jeremy Burgess know less than you about this subject.

It wasnt just CS communicating this information back to Ducati...it was every friggin one of their riders you tool!

BarryMachine · Jun 1, 2011

levigarrett said:
How long will you continue with this idea that Casey was unable to communicate to Ducati that their bike was a steaming pile of .....? Were all of the other failing Ducati riders (both satellite and factory) also completely unable to speak "motorcycle" to the Ducati engineers? We're all aware of how you'd like to portray this but the fact of the matter is that JB himself spoke regarding Ducati's approach to rider input and it's effect on the bike's development.

Do you recall how Melandri's criticism were dealt with? Ducati is only now taking action to fix their machine. They have only just begun to admit their problems and address them constructively. It had nothing to do with Casey's english skills. Absent his talent, I think things would have been addressed sooner. Casey was simply good enough to keep the Ducati arrogance in place with his results. Along comes Rossi who simply cannot operate the machine well enough to find the top 7 on a good day, and all of a sudden, we learn the the Ducati is virtually unridable....

How convenient for everyone involved.

Seemsto be the bit that Ptk is ignoring ....... in reality Rossi has still done bugger all with the bike. ........ Stoner had 23 wins on it ...... what has Rossi got

Viper-7 · Jun 1, 2011

BarryMachine said:
Seemsto be the bit that Ptk is ignoring ....... in reality Rossi has still done bugger all with the bike. ........ Stoner had 23 wins on it ...... what has Rossi got

Well its only been 4 races mate for Rossi on the Ducati. 4 seasons for Stoner. Lets wait and see after 4 seasons then decide.

povol · Jun 1, 2011

ptk50 said:
I think I'd say it differently - in that CS had the BALLs to try what his BRAIN told him was/ could be possible - well possible some, but not all of the time - hence WIN or DNF. For me that certainly sends a very positive message about CS's riding and racing skills. The story keeps taking the question back to: was CS able to communicate the handling issues back to Ducati - and if so did they listen to him - understand him - or not. It looks (to me) like the answers to both questions were probably "NO" - CS could not objectively convince Duc of the issues AND they preferred to pay more attention to the Wins than the (CS feedback on) causes of the DNF's. Lack of technical clout from CS and/ or technical arrogance from Ducati???? In the end Ducati did recognize thst something really was wrong - enter JB and VR. Will they put the Duc back at the front??? Looks to me like they are moving in the right direction - wait for later in the season

More like enter JB and VR, then they admit something is wrong.Lets face it, if VR cannot ride towards the pointy end, instead of 15 seconds back, something is wrong. Ducati was remiss in discounting Stoners input, he won despite them.

Tom · Jun 1, 2011

One thing that has occured to me about the Stoner - Ducati - Rossi thing.

Ducati KNEW how good a rider Stoner was, they are not stupid and they had all the data. The results also showed that he could beat anybody at times regardless of an unfavoured bike. Ducati also knew that when they had Rossi onboard the bike will look bad if they don't win, they had to get it right. I don't see the move as Ducati being arrogant or disrespectful to Casey by hiring Rossi to simply replace Stoner and do what he did. I think that hiring Rossi (knowing Stoner can ride as good or better) and JB was in a way them accepting THEIR failure to develop a top level motogp bike, and recruiting the best help anyone can get to fix that issue.

BarryMachine · Jun 1, 2011

Viper-7 said:
Well its only been 4 races mate for Rossi on the Ducati. 4 seasons for Stoner. Lets wait and see after 4 seasons then decide.

In 4 races on the ducati Stoner had won ....... ? .......... more than Rossi

In 4 seasons ....... Stoner won the most races of all riders ......... lets see if Rossi does the same

BarryMachine · Jun 1, 2011

Tom said:
One thing that has occured to me about the Stoner - Ducati - Rossi thing.

Ducati KNEW how good a rider Stoner was, they are not stupid and they had all the data. The results also showed that he could beat anybody at times regardless of an unfavoured bike. Ducati also knew that when they had Rossi onboard the bike will look bad if they don't win, they had to get it right. I don't see the move as Ducati being arrogant or disrespectful to Casey by hiring Rossi to simply replace Stoner and do what he did. I think that hiring Rossi (knowing Stoner can ride as good or better) and JB was in a way them accepting THEIR failure to develop a top level motogp bike, and recruiting the best help anyone can get to fix that issue.

Well lets see if they do fix it then before we start celebrating won't we

and ...... is fixing it getting better than the most wins in 4 seasons? ....... thats what Rossi has to do to fix it better than Stoner did.

Where is this idiotic talk of the bike being "better for all" coming from, do you really think folk don't have idiosyncrasies?

So when Rossi does fix it ........... Stoner will go back to Ducati ...... and lap even Rossi

levigarrett · Jun 1, 2011

povol said:
More like enter JB and VR, then they admit something is wrong.Lets face it, if VR cannot ride towards the pointy end, instead of 15 seconds back, something is wrong. Ducati was remiss in discounting Stoners input, he won despite them.

Precisely! I wasted band width with my post.

ptk50 · Jun 1, 2011

levigarrett said:
How long will you continue with this idea that Casey was unable to communicate to Ducati that their bike was a steaming pile of .....? Were all of the other failing Ducati riders (both satellite and factory) also completely unable to speak "motorcycle" to the Ducati engineers? We're all aware of how you'd like to portray this but the fact of the matter is that JB himself spoke regarding Ducati's approach to rider input and it's effect on the bike's development.

Do you recall how Melandri's criticism were dealt with? Ducati is only now taking action to fix their machine. They have only just begun to admit their problems and address them constructively. It had nothing to do with Casey's english skills. Absent his talent, I think things would have been addressed sooner. Casey was simply good enough to keep the Ducati arrogance in place with his results. Along comes Rossi who simply cannot operate the machine well enough to find the top 7 on a good day, and all of a sudden, we learn the the Ducati is virtually unridable....

How convenient for everyone involved.

Let's just say CS provided feedback on the Duc's handling issues - and they didn't listen - that begs the question of why not - I doubt if it had anything to do with his english language skills (point you dreamed up) - maybe they didn't respect his description, give him credit for understanding or maybe he just wasn't objective enough for them. - hopefully he was more objective than your "communicate to Ducati that their bike was a steaming pile of ....."

As for the other riders - the sat teams definitely did not have the clout, capi is steadily losing his credentials from season to season, marco - amongst other things gave up. Bottom line is that if CS was talking and Duc weren't listening - then there was a breakdown in communication and this is rarely completely one sided.

I do agree totally - read my post - that CS riding and racing skills were the key to the successes Duc had - and you've got a point that this probably fueled the arrogance which recognized only the WINs and not the DNF's

Yes Ducati did recognize that they had problems - enter JB and his objective criticism - based significantly on VR feedback. Your comments around not making top 7 are out of whack with race results, which also cans your "virtually" unrideable allusion

ptk50 · Jun 1, 2011

povol said:
More like enter JB and VR, then they admit something is wrong.Lets face it, if VR cannot ride towards the pointy end, instead of 15 seconds back, something is wrong. Ducati was remiss in discounting Stoners input, he won despite them.

That - I completely agree with

ptk50 · Jun 1, 2011

Mr Squiggle said:
ABSOLUTE RUBBISH......you obviously are in complete denial.

I prefer to believe the guys who actually work on these bikes than some dork living in fantasy land and sprouting crap on the internet....apparently you reckon Ramon Forcada and Jeremy Burgess know less than you about this subject.

It wasnt just CS communicating this information back to Ducati...it was every friggin one of their riders you tool!

Squiggie's Interests: Interests:..., drugs and rock and roll + bikes

Hey Zippy - your reply is so irrational you must be getting too little of your 1st interest and too much of the 2nd

As for "It wasnt just CS communicating this information back to Ducati...it was every friggin one of their riders you tool!"

You confuse speaking, talking +/or making noise with communication - here is the Wiki definition - as you may see it is two sided:

Communication is the activity of conveying meaningful information. Communication requires a sender, a message, and an intended recipient, although the receiver need not be present or aware of the sender's intent to communicate at the time of communication; thus communication can occur across vast distances in time and space. Communication requires that the communicating parties share an area of communicative commonality. The communication process is complete once the receiver has understood the sender.

mylexicon · Jun 1, 2011

Tom said:
One thing that has occured to me about the Stoner - Ducati - Rossi thing.

Ducati KNEW how good a rider Stoner was, they are not stupid and they had all the data. The results also showed that he could beat anybody at times regardless of an unfavoured bike. Ducati also knew that when they had Rossi onboard the bike will look bad if they don't win, they had to get it right. I don't see the move as Ducati being arrogant or disrespectful to Casey by hiring Rossi to simply replace Stoner and do what he did. I think that hiring Rossi (knowing Stoner can ride as good or better) and JB was in a way them accepting THEIR failure to develop a top level motogp bike, and recruiting the best help anyone can get to fix that issue.

It was disrespectful. The MSMA supposed that 21L and 800cc would mean a return to cornerspeed. Casey told everyone that cornerspeed was not fastest. He wanted a bike that turned on a dime so it could brake late, and accelerate early. The basic theory of saving fuel was not compatible with Casey's requests so Ducati didn't really listen to him. Even as H&Y started to claw back Ducati's advantage, Ducati still refused to build a bike that did what Casey wanted it to do.

Now Casey rides for Honda who have surprisingly decided to make Casey happy. We are all treated to a biweekly demonstration of how the ancient dirt-tracking methods still reduce lap time even in the 21L 800cc era. I'm sure Hayden is about ready to fly to HRC headquarters and go postal on some people.

Goatboy · Jun 1, 2011

So all those trips to the gravel were Stoner's fault for over-riding! Jesus ..... ....... Christ!!

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H62rC7YnM7M[/media]

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