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If you cant run with the big dogs,stay on the porch
God i will be glad when the economy turns around. I am so tired of hearing 'Lets dumb down the series so i can compete', i could puke. BSB is on its way to becoming as irrelevant as North American Superbike racing, and thats pretty god damned irrelevant. Canadian Superbike, which has always been an afterthought, was just stupid this year. Im not sure why they even bothered. My disdain for the AMA is no secret, but if you look at the crowds, im not the only one. I will say the racing, though manufactured, has been pretty good, but that was predictable.So to answer your question, bad idea. WSBK's popularity is at or near its all time high and i believe its the performance of the machines that has brought about this resurgence . People are getting on board for WSBK because they see very similar performance from a team that has a 5 million dollar budget, compared to a 20-25 million budget for a top GP team. Race fans like close racing, but not at the expense of performance.If the possibility of broken records do not exist, you will lose a portion of your fan base. There is nothing like hearing the words " new lap record" over the PA system, its what racing is all about.
I don't see the point either. A spec ECU alone does not mean that costs will go down or fewer data engineers will be required. If they are planning on banning all electronics other than basic fuel injection, it sounds like fun, but seeing as everything in the sport is designed for factory electronics, I'm not sure what the end result would be. Would Pirelli even have the right compounds if the tires needed to be 20% harder?
Povol, I find it interesting that you are in love with cost-effective, dumbed-down version of MotoGP (WSBK), but you can't love a dumbed down version of WSBK. What was it Edmondson said? Comfort zone of a gnat?
Electronics allow hamfisted midgets to open the throttle 100% when the bike is at full lean. Electronics allows the untalented to ride with the legends. Ask Mladin. He was never at a loss for words when outlining the things that allowed the untalented AMA hacks to stay in his wake. Electronic rider aids and stock suspension were always at the top of his list.
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I don't see the point either. A spec ECU alone does not mean that costs will go down or fewer data engineers will be required. If they are planning on banning all electronics other than basic fuel injection, it sounds like fun, but seeing as everything in the sport is designed for factory electronics, I'm not sure what the end result would be. Would Pirelli even have the right compounds if the tires needed to be 20% harder?
Povol, I find it interesting that you are in love with cost-effective, dumbed-down version of MotoGP (WSBK), but you can't love a dumbed down version of WSBK. What was it Edmondson said? Comfort zone of a gnat?Are you a middle child? That would explain everything.
Electronics allow hamfisted midgets to open the throttle 100% when the bike is at full lean. Electronics allows the untalented to ride with the legends. Ask Mladin. He was never at a loss for words when outlining the things that allowed the untalented AMA hacks to stay in his wake. Electronic rider aids and stock suspension were always at the top of his list.
There is only one Moto GP series that im aware of. If someone started another GP prototype series that was 2 seconds a lap slower, i wouldnt like it either. There are numerous Superbike series around the world, and one has got it right. Sponsors are going to give up the money for something the fans will pay to see, not some clowns vision of what will make him more money.How you can call WSBK , a production based series, a dumbed down version of GP prototype racing is beyond me. Its apples and oranges If i were Dorna, i would be embarrassed and ashamed to admit that 15-20 million dollars per team, a year, bought me a half second in performance.
But WSBK should not be embarrassed that BSB Evo's (stock engines with spec electronics) can lap within a second of full WSBK spec?
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But WSBK should not be embarrassed that BSB Evo's (stock engines with spec electronics) can lap within a second of full WSBK spec?This gets more interesting all the time.
Before i called ........, i quickly looked at WSBK times from Brands Hatch in 2008, the last time they raced there.
The pole was 1.25.656
Jump to 2010
The highest qualifying EVO bike at Brands Hatch
1.28.427 Now im certainly no math major, but that looks like a hell of a lot more than a second. Factor in the progress the last 2 years of WSBK and that figure jumps to well over 3 seconds.
So i am now officially calling ........
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No need to compare it to world superbikes. They race WSBK equipment in BSB. The talent level of the riders and teams, as well as the weather conditions, are much closer. If you look at the BSB website they even show the best laps for both classes right next to one another. The gaps are between 1-2 seconds. Evo bikes race in traffic and most of them don't have full SBK chassis b/c they can't afford the top suspension or the factory swingarm. If you read about most of the teams either on their websites or in the press conferences, most of them are running slightly hotted up Superstock bikes.
It is more than 1 second, but it's close in the grand scheme of things.
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First it was within a second, now its 1-2 seconds.
2.7 seconds difference in Qualifying between BSB and EVO
In Race 1
7 Michael LAVERTY GBR Suzuki - Relentless Suzuki by TAS 4 1:26.467 95.79 mph 154.16 kph
1.939
56 E Hudson KENNAUGH RSA Aprilia - Splitlath Motorsport 4 1:28.406 93.69 mph 150.78 kph
Race 2
6 Michael RUTTER GBR Ducati - RidersMotorcycles.Com 3 1:26.059 96.24 mph 154.89 kph
2.311
19 E Steve BROGAN GBR BMW - Jentin Racing - BMW Motorrad 5 1:28.370 93.73 mph 150.84 kph
Lets call it a little over 2 seconds, an eternity in racing. If GP was 2 seconds a lap faster than WSBK, we wouldnt be having this conversation
IIRC the Evo bikes did finish within 1 second of the SBKs this season, and most of the races are between 1-2 seconds. All this from underfunded privateers who race in traffic without the actual factory chassis/suspension parts.
If the virtue of racing is slightly slower bikes at a fraction of the cost, EVO is your ticket. Personally, I only think the bikes should be slower and cheaper when serious budgetary problems exist or the FIM is having problems with product cannibalism, but if you think WSBK is better b/c it's slower and more cost-effective than GP, who am I to disagree?
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I'm willing to bet that the competitiveness and the ratcheting up of factory efforts in WSBK have more to do with the series' resurgence. The series' fortunes have come at the same time Moto GP's grids are shrinking. I think we will know more if the big four factories return to AMA racing with factory teams and promotion, and the crowds still do not return.
Who is to say that the smaller crowds at AMA races aren't due to disgust or lack of credibility in the organization after last year's disastrous display of leadership?
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There is no doubt that it is a factor, but not the main factor. From someone who attended more races than he cares to count, and the people that attended them with me, the problem is this to us. We are used to Superbikes that can compete with any Superbike on the planet. It was a great source of discussion when the US riders could wildcard at a WSBK event and not only run with the big boys, but even beat them on their AMA spec bike. Now, we dont see the value in dropping 7-800 bucks on a race weekend to watch Superstock bikes posing as Superbikes. Its not a main event to us any longer. Same thing with DSB, its a Superstock bike posing as a Supersport, and they .... canned FX all together, which was our version of WSS. So, instead of having Superbike, Supersport, and FX, we have Superstock 1000's, Superstock 600's and Harley's. I will watch that from the comfort of my living room, not go thru the hassle of packing for a bike trip, going thru the hassle of suiting up, getting undressed, worrying all day if someone is going to steal your ...., suiting back up for the ride back to the motel etc etc. If the AMA wants to run a watered down version of what we are used to, let them work out a deal with the hotels for half price rooms, and they can slash the ticket prices in half.
AMA SBK are not Superstock engines.Superstock config produces around 180bhp. Yosh said that their GSXR was making 200bhp. AMA SBK can alter compression, and the AMA uses higher octane fuel than FIM competition (98AKI vs. 96AKI). FX was not really WSS either. It was 600cc SBK per Ray Blank's request (Ray was the first person to propose 600cc SBKs for AMA competition). Even though the performance was similar to WSS (unfortunate), FX had internal engine mods, slick Dunlops (IIRC) and 104 octane racing fuel so FX was several notches above WSS.
Look, I'm not going to complain b/c people don't like the state of tune. There is not doubt the luster of AMA bikes has been dulled significantly and the value for money is less (b/c the manufacturers aren't investing). Cost-cutting had to happen regardless of what the fans wanted b/c the sport went broke before DMG bought it. When the fans and media reacted badly to the idea or reduced tuning rules, they began bickering over who would get blamed. The manufacturers were happy to blame WSBK b/c they had been reducing the state of tune in a stealthy fashion for years. DMG is pro-privateer so they wanted to broadcast the virtues of cheaper bikes to every corner of the planet.
The fans are gone b/c no one knows what has actually happened to the rules. They fans know it's not WSBK so they conclude it must be Superstock. They aren't running Superstock, but how would anyone know since the neither DMG nor the teams have given any explanation for what they are actually doing? I know that AMA SBK is Supersport 1000 (w/o carbon fiber) b/c I compared the rulebooks myself. The fans know DSB is old AMA SS for 2010 b/c Ulrich mentioned it in passing at the beginning of the season. None of that helps b/c the fans follow the manufacturers. Until the manufacturers and teams start to explain how the sport works, people will continue to assume that we are watching DMG Superstock racing.
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Wow, the Flaminni's are Gods, or at the very least magicians. They stealthly detuned World Superbikes, yet performance has in you words, got to the point where they are quasi GP bikes. That is amazing. My respect for them grows on a daily basis.
I meant DMG not WSBK. The MIC was happy to blame DMG b/c the MIC had been stealthily reducing the state of tune via a schedule of changes for the 2008-2010 seasons. DMG are pro-privateer so they basically wanted to tell everyone on earth that they had eliminated factory only parts, reduced supply chain, and improved the cost-efficiency. Wonderful information if you are a sponsor or a team owner, but it's horribly unsexy if you're a fan. I think the jubilant promotion of cost-efficiency set the MIC off b/c they know the fans don't understand the business side of sports management. Only bad things can come of publicly announcing cost-efficiency, sponsorship concepts, and organizational structure.
BSB are making the same mistake as well. They want people to pat them on the back for their practicality, but they get kicked in the teeth instead by fans who are not happy about news of the series' decline.
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And therein lies the problem. The bike racing world doesnt seem to know their fan at all. Real race fans want ridiculous machines and riders with the balls to ride them. Thats it.
We want machines that make Rossi say "....". We want machines that are so UNPRACTICAL , we wouldnt dare climb on one, like a 1000cc 2stroke with no electronics
And therein lies the problem. The bike racing world doesnt seem to know their fan at all. Real race fans want ridiculous machines and riders with the balls to ride them. Thats it.
We want machines that make Rossi say "....". We want machines that are so UNPRACTICAL , we wouldnt dare climb on one, like a 1000cc 2stroke with no electronics
The series understand the fan. The problem is that racing series intentionally keep people in the dark (for marketing reasons) about how the series actually works. They never explain the rulebook or any of the deals that get cut behind the scenes. When the light of day is finally shined into the darkest corners of the sport, the fans are aghast. They never perceived any problem so how can they give credit to someone for cleaning it up? Fans kill the messenger.
Max Mosley was dismissed from the FIA b/c the teams and the fans didn't want a budget cap. As soon as Mosley left, the teams signed a budget cap.
History is littered with lessons. WRC killed group B cars and conspicuously announced that they would be reducing power and creating a new car called the WRC. WRC has been in steep decline for quite some time. Now they have made the mistake of mentioning Super 2000 (much lower spec than WRC) which was a huge mistake b/c they are actually going to turbocharge Super 2000 such that the power is roughly the same. Loeb didn't even bother to read the rule changes before he threatened to leave. He saw Super 2000 and thought they were turning WRC into IRC
It's sad, but this is the world we live in. Perception is reality when the sport doesn't communicate with the fans. It can work in your favor, or it can destroy your sport.
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The series understand the fan. The problem is that racing series intentionally keep people in the dark (for marketing reasons) about how the series actually works. They never explain the rulebook or any of the deals that get cut behind the scenes. When the light of day is finally shined into the darkest corners of the sport, the fans are aghast. They never perceived any problem so how can they give credit to someone for cleaning it up? Fans kill the messenger.
Max Mosley was dismissed from the FIA b/c the teams and the fans didn't want a budget cap. As soon as Mosley left, the teams signed a budget cap.The fans didn't care, and most of them probably don't even realize the sport it budget capped b/c it's done via a confidential legally binding contract between the teams not via the rulebook.
History is littered with lessons. WRC killed group B cars and conspicuously announced that they would be reducing power and creating a new car called the WRC. WRC has been in steep decline for quite some time. Now they have made the mistake of mentioning Super 2000 (much lower spec than WRC) which was a huge mistake b/c they are actually going to turbocharge Super 2000 such that the power is roughly the same. Loeb didn't even bother to read the rule changes before he threatened to leave. He saw Super 2000 and thought they were turning WRC into IRCIf WRC had simply converted the cars to turbocharged S2000 in the dark of the night, no one would have noticed a thing. The fans would have been overjoyed that so many manufacturers had returned.
It's sad, but this is the world we live in. Perception is reality when the sport doesn't communicate with the fans. It can work in your favor, or it can destroy your sport.
Mosley was forced out under the guise of the cap. The teams got fed up with the collusion and behind the scene deals between he and his buddy Eccolstone, and threatened a new start up series. That scared the .... out of Eccolstone and he sacrificed Mosley. The Nazi ... parties was the opening the teams needed to put the spotlight solely on him, once he lost control of the message being sent out to the press, his days were numbered
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History is littered with lessons. WRC killed group B cars and conspicuously announced that they would be reducing power and creating a new car called the WRC. WRC has been in steep decline for quite some time. Now they have made the mistake of mentioning Super 2000 (much lower spec than WRC) which was a huge mistake b/c they are actually going to turbocharge Super 2000 such that the power is roughly the same. Loeb didn't even bother to read the rule changes before he threatened to leave. He saw Super 2000 and thought they were turning WRC into IRCIf WRC had simply converted the cars to turbocharged S2000 in the dark of the night, no one would have noticed a thing. The fans would have been overjoyed that so many manufacturers had returned.
The WRC hasn't declined constantly since the end of Group B. From the late 90s until around 2004, the series was hugely popular. The years of Subaru v. Mitsubishi v. Ford v. Peugeot v. Citroen. This period will be fondly remembered for years.
It's possible to overcome fans' negative perceptions stemming from performance reduction. It seems to require factory participation and the accompanying hype and promotion. The ALMS was able to inject some life back into US sports car racing with international flavor and factory efforts such as BMW, Audi, Viper, and Corvette. The 2007 and 2008 seasons were the best seasons for the sport since the GTP era using prototypes with roughly half the horsepower of those from the 80s (although they cornered like motherfuckers). People wore the shirts, painted their backs, wore appropriately colored wigs, and cheered on their favorite brand or team.
Once again, I think we'll see the truth if/when the big 4 come back to AMA road racing.
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The WRC hasn't declined constantly since the end of Group B. From the late 90s until around 2004, the series was hugely popular. The years of Subaru v. Mitsubishi v. Ford v. Peugeot v. Citroen. This period will be fondly remembered for years.The big-time feel of the factory teams did it, IMO (along with video-game-fueled fascination with Lancers and Imprezas).
It's possible to overcome fans' negative perceptions stemming from performance reduction. It seems to require factory participation and the accompanying hype and promotion. The ALMS was able to inject some life back into US sports car racing with international flavor and factory efforts such as BMW, Audi, Viper, and Corvette. The 2007 and 2008 seasons were the best seasons for the sport since the GTP era using prototypes with roughly half the horsepower of those from the 80s (although they cornered like motherfuckers). People wore the shirts, painted their backs, wore appropriately colored wigs, and cheered on their favorite brand or team.
Once again, I think we'll see the truth if/when the big 4 come back to AMA road racing.
For my money,the greatest era of sports car racing was the late 80's and the early 90's. Thats when this bad boy came on to the scene and decimated the competition till they just quit
10328:eagle.jpg]
2.4 litre 4 banger with twin turbos and aero that was 20 years ahead of its time. This car set performance records just about evey time it hit the track. I loved the IMSA GTP series back then and quit following when the series folded and came back with lower performance cars. I did the same with Indy car, and the same with restrictor plate racing in Nascar, and the same with AMA. I see a pattern emerging
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