Bridgestone investigate Dani Pedrosa tyre issue

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 29 2009, 11:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Everything that comes out of that factory in Bologna is by clinical design never happenstance.

Everything that comes out of Bologna is about passion and seat of the pants feel. No technological advancements that ruin rider feel are permissible in Bologna.

Yamaha have recently been writing about the importance of eliminating inertial interference that results from unbalanced engines. Ducati discovered the importance of eliminating inertial torque interference many decades ago when they chose the L-twin configuration.

With the L-twin came the rearward weight bias, the relatively long wheel base, and the handling characteristics that have defined Ducati's handling characteristics. The rearward weight bias was not by design, it was a consequence of their unyielding pursuit of balanced desmo twins.

The alliance with Bridgestone was necessary to help Ducati overcome its poor weight distribution. In the end, the rules package ended up turning Ducati's handling weakness into a strength.

I really believe that the desmo L-twin is one of the greatest lumps ever, but it does come with its consequences. Likewise the L-4, though the extra cylinders to help address the problems with overall engine length.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 30 2009, 02:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You will understand some day. In the meantime keep fighting the phantom demon of drag racing.

All is vanity anyway. If a conflict is on the horizon, choose to protect your vanity. That's what the 21st century has taught me. Who cares that people are high-siding at astronomical speeds, it's much more important that we the fans never embrace drag racing with a top speed limit.

5 minutes after the first motorcycle was built they realized it was slower at full lean than it was when it was upright. We're only ignoring 1 century of motorcycling data, what's the big deal? That's the old way, we need changes.

It's obvious that we are bored and we're looking for new fun. Creating bikes that corner 50% faster than 500s while still pitching riders into the stands is probably not a good idea. Especially since fear of petrol is driving this new madness.
I was going to ask if you where on meds when you posted, but I'm guessing you're the recreational user type. I find straights extremely boring and absolute safety on a motorcycle to be an oxymoron. Cornering, especially at an outrageous pace, and its inherent danger(s) is why I started racing and why I am enthralled with two wheeled motorsport in general. Ever seen or competed in an an ice race? BTW any squid can twist a throttle on a straight... but I've seen 50 year old BMW 1150 riders embarrass many a wannabe racer in the twisties.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Apr 29 2009, 01:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was going to ask if you where on meds when you posted, but I'm guessing you're the recreational user type. I find straights extremely boring and absolute safety on a motorcycle to be an oxymoron. Cornering, especially at an outrageous pace, and its inherent danger(s) is why I started racing and why I am enthralled with two wheeled motorsport in general. Ever seen or competed in an an ice race?

Wait wait wait.

If they add fuel and decrease cornering speed, bikes are suddenly going to spend more time on the straights and less time in the twisties?

Is Dorna planning to lengthen the straights? or are you on some good meds?

BTW, I'm just messing with you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 29 2009, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Everything that comes out of Bologna is about passion and seat of the pants feel. No technological advancements that ruin rider feel are permissible in Bologna.That'd be more credible if they hadn't rolled out stuff like that ridiculous fuel-economy engine-braking tweak that threw off capirossi and Checa and weren't running the least rider-friendly bike on the grid.

Lex I am on side with you about the fuel quantity. No argument there. I just wish it was pure ethanol...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Apr 29 2009, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That'd be more credible if they hadn't rolled out stuff like that ridiculous fuel-economy engine-braking tweak that threw off capirossi and Checa and weren't running the least rider-friendly bike on the grid.

From time to time they're going to get a few wrong. GP is the first line of prototyping. Many things they do will turn out to be unsuccessful.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 29 2009, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wait wait wait.

If they add fuel and decrease cornering speed, bikes are suddenly going to spend more time on the straights and less time in the twisties?

Is Dorna planning to lengthen the straights? or are you on some good meds?

BTW, I'm just messing with you.

Not to mention that the riders with more skills/balls will prevail and mistakes aren't a make or break your entire race as we have seen in WSBK.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Apr 30 2009, 05:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not to mention that the riders with more skills/balls will prevail and mistakes aren't a make or break your entire race as we have seen in WSBK.
Why does it take more skills/balls to "point and shoot" than to carve a perfect lap with ridiculously high corner speeds?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Apr 29 2009, 12:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm actually starting to think that this logic will work. What are the drawbacks?

The entire plan hinges primarily on two assumptions----1. the 800s have enough low-end to be ridden using point-and-shoot 2. Michelin could return in short order

I really think more fuel will lead to the interesting blend of tidy cornering and slide happy late braking that made the 2006 season such a joy to watch. I think it's safe to say that both the Yamaha and the Honda have enough low end to make good stuff happen in the lower rev range. Yamaha uses the long bang to produce extra torque and Honda have severely limited the RC212V's low-end in an attempt to save gas (the spring valved engine was actually better off of the bottom so they can go back if necessary).

However, if point-and-shoot bikes are not significantly faster or even equally as fast it could lead to more serious problems. Using a point-and-shoot setup helps make passing much easier, but if it nets you 10th place during qualifying, you wouldn't be able to catch the front-runners after getting through traffic.

The key to slowing the bikes down, is getting more weight on the front. More weight on the front is the result of bikes designed for massive acceleration. If more fuel will help the 800s off the bottom, I think it would be wise to change the formula by adding at least 1 liter, but preferably adding 3 then instituting a top speed limit where necessary. The extra 2 liters of fuel would help reduce the emphasis on high speed aerodynamics and minute riders.

Keep in mind, my arguments are highly generalized and ignorant of the minor technical nuances that have a major impact on the unintended consequences that have plagued the sport. In the end, I'm sure the engineers could find a way to make the 800s as powerful as the 990s throughout the entire rev range if they are given enough fuel. It would be quite a feat of engineering and something I would relish as a fan of motorcycling. Reducing displacement without compromising power---not lap time---is an engineering feat worth achieving. Choking engine development and variation b/c the governing body are too terrified to make a bold rules change (top speed limit at 2 or 3 venues) is cowardice.

Since cornerspeed and excessive electronics have had a hugely negative impact on the spectacle of racing, something needs to be changed. Banning electronics is extremely difficult, adding more fuel is extremely easy. Top speed can be limited easily, if necessary.

More fuel certainly won't make the bikes faster in the corners so it is unlikely that it will have any disastrous effects that can't be remedy with simple rules like a top speed limit. Come to think of it, more displacement won't make the bikes any faster in the corners either.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Apr 29 2009, 04:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was never a fan of the single tyre rule. Never will be either.

Now what we had was a Michelin domination, then in line with the underlying philosophy of a prototype class someone came up with something better (B’stone/Ducati).

Now we have this faster style (rear weight bias etc) it has created a dominant riding style and design philosophy.

I think the world of motorcycle racing would have been better IF somebody tried to think of a faster way again and the competition would have created and nurtured differing design philosophies.

What we have now is 5 manufacturers trying to build the same motorcycle, a very expensive version of the R1 cup. (Do not take that too literally).

What I am saying is that a degree of innovation has been taken away, now everyone has to build a Ducati or Yamaha clone.
Great Post. Thanks.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Apr 29 2009, 11:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Not to mention that the riders with more skills/balls will prevail and mistakes aren't a make or break your entire race as we have seen in WSBK.

So you are saying that bikes which forgive mistakes more easily will encourage the more skilled to prevail? I would have thought the opposite was true.

As far as Dani's tyre goes, it didn't look like what I'd expect from a tyre that was simply warn down from over use/poor setup, but thats only intuation as none of us know what to expect these tyres to do when used beyond their threshold. Whoever it was that said Dani could have clipped a sharp kirb or something made a good point, because if it was a manufacturing fault it'd be a huge coincedence if just one tyre was affected, and not a few or even a batch.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Apr 30 2009, 04:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why does it take more skills/balls to "point and shoot" than to carve a perfect lap with ridiculously high corner speeds?
IF there would be a reason as to why I think it comes down to really hard braking in the corners. Then on the exit of the corner the bike tends to buck and wiggle since the power is being applied abruptly. The 990's were the benchmark.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 30 2009, 12:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...the governing body are too terrified to make a bold rules change (top speed limit at 2 or 3 venues) is cowardice.
Lex... you can't possibly be referring to a governing body such as Dorna who were so terrified of change they dropped a perfectly good 990 format for wimpy 800s or so catatonic that they shuttered tradition and went to a single tyre manufacturer, can you?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 30 2009, 09:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whoever it was that said Dani could have clipped a sharp kirb or something made a good point, because if it was a manufacturing fault it'd be a huge coincedence if just one tyre was affected, and not a few or even a batch.
Who's to say if it was just one tyre affected? With severely limited practice time Dani only used one tyre under race conditions and he uses a unique set-up. Who's to say if you put another one of Dani's (or one of Rossi's, or Stoner's, or Loris'...) on Dani's bike under race pace for the full race the same thing wouldn't have happened?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Apr 30 2009, 08:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> Lex... you can't possibly be referring to a governing body such as Dorna who were so terrified of change they dropped a perfectly good 990 format for wimpy 800s or so catatonic that they shuttered tradition and went to a single tyre manufacturer, can you?

Dropping displacement in 4 stroke racing series' is a widely used strategy to slow things down. Likewise, a control tire is a proven strategy to reduce cost and control performance.

They are simply borrowing ideas from other racing formats.

Besides, DORNA didn't drop the displacement, it has since been revealed that Ezy went along with the vote simply because he knew he had lost 3-1 and the council always votes for technical changes unanimously.

DORNA are behind the new pathetic rules designed to cut costs like eliminating certain electronic devices, creating a new engine rule, the rider rookie rule, cutting practice time, etc. They are the ring leaders of the cost cutting circus because DORNA are the only party concerned with getting more bikes on the grid.

They are dangerously close to losing world championship status.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Apr 30 2009, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>IF there would be a reason as to why I think it comes down to really hard braking in the corners. Then on the exit of the corner the bike tends to buck and wiggle since the power is being applied abruptly. The 990's were the benchmark.
Well for me smokers were the benchmark. Also I believe it takes an equal, but very different skills/balls, to master 500 smokers, 990 4 strokers, and 800 shrinkers. In fact only one pilot has managed to master them all, and even the 800cc king Casey was ..... on the 990s.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 30 2009, 05:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dropping displacement in 4 stroke racing series' is a widely used strategy to slow things down. Likewise, a control tire is a proven strategy to reduce cost and control performance.

They are simply borrowing ideas from other racing formats.

Besides, DORNA didn't drop the displacement, it has since been revealed that Ezy went along with the vote simply because he knew he had lost 3-1 and the council always votes for technical changes unanimously.

DORNA are behind the new pathetic rules designed to cut costs like eliminating certain electronic devices, creating a new engine rule, the rider rookie rule, cutting practice time, etc. They are the ring leaders of the cost cutting circus because DORNA are the only party concerned with getting more bikes on the grid.

They are dangerously close to losing world championship status.
The problem with their ideas of cost cutting I think will actually cost more. If they have to redesign and make drastic changes to the bikes and how they do business, it all costs money.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Apr 30 2009, 04:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Why does it take more skills/balls to "point and shoot" than to carve a perfect lap with ridiculously high corner speeds?
Exactly - it doesn't... you say this class is in a catatonic state, I'm not so sure what you mean other than the confusion and directionless course that Dorna have charted, but I certainly miss the catharsis of the 990's. There may be more precision involved in piloting the and plotting the perfect parabola, but it can be boring as .... to watch someone inscribing the perfect race line..If it has to be four strokes, I'd rather a mountain of torque as a medium, an excess of power, and the glorious chaos of the late apex = 990

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 30 2009, 11:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dropping displacement in 4 stroke racing series' is a widely used strategy to slow things down. Likewise, a control tire is a proven strategy to reduce cost and control performance.

They are simply borrowing ideas from other racing formats.

Besides, DORNA didn't drop the displacement, it has since been revealed that Ezy went along with the vote simply because he knew he had lost 3-1 and the council always votes for technical changes unanimously.

DORNA are behind the new pathetic rules designed to cut costs like eliminating certain electronic devices, creating a new engine rule, the rider rookie rule, cutting practice time, etc. They are the ring leaders of the cost cutting circus because DORNA are the only party concerned with getting more bikes on the grid.

They are dangerously close to losing world championship status.
I believe MotoGP has a single tyre manufacturer, not a control tyre. Also what other motorcycle racing series, anywhere, has dropped displacement? None, you are correct, sir.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 30 2009, 11:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Exactly - it doesn't... you say this class is in a catatonic state, I'm not so sure what you mean other than the confusion and directionless course that Dorna have charted, but I certainly miss the catharsis of the 990's. There may be more precision involved in piloting the and plotting the perfect parabola, but it can be boring as .... to watch someone inscribing the perfect race line..If it has to be four strokes, I'd rather a mountain of torque as a medium, an excess of power, and the glorious chaos of the late apex = 990
I agree wholeheartedly... just pulling Lex's chain.

BTW I was using catatonic as a synonym for terrified in my response to Lex...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Apr 30 2009, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In fact only one pilot has managed to master them all, and even the 800cc king Casey was ..... on the 990s.

We don't really have a lot of evidence to make that call, and even based on what little we have Casey was far from ......

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick D @ Apr 30 2009, 05:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I believe MotoGP has a single tyre manufacturer, not a control tyre.

I'm pretty sure its a control tyre, hence the way the tyres are all the same and randomly allocated.