Bridgestone investigate Dani Pedrosa tyre issue

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Apr 29 2009, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Still think control tyre is a good idea ?

This is where it is going to get very expensive for some teams if they have to re design a bike to suit the tyres. Reading between the lines it looks like an issue with the rc212v, a few seasons ago the tyre company would have just made a different tyre for it but thats not the case now.
Dani battled hard with rossi then appeared to drop off the pace. we now know why, impressive podium all thong considered

So who should make the adjustment to suit, the Stone or HRC? I know Bridgestone is a Japanese company and the tires suit well with another Japanese Bike --Yamaha M1. Last year Nakano bike was on the stone too, but he was never running at the front with Rossi or pushing as hard as Pedrobot.
At the end the problem was never being discovered and HRC is crying fool this year...

I would like to see Pedroso and his Puig on the podium and Bridgestone and HRC should work together. With new rules introduced this year I think michelin would be able to provide HRC with competitive tire..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (V5Stroker @ Apr 29 2009, 09:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So who should make the adjustment to suit, the Stone or HRC? I know Bridgestone is a Japanese company and the tires suit well with another Japanese Bike --Yamaha M1. Last year Nakano bike was on the stone too, but he was never running at the front with Rossi or pushing as hard as Pedrobot.
At the end the problem was never being discovered and HRC is crying fool this year...

I would like to see Pedroso and his Puig on the podium and Bridgestone and HRC should work together. With new rules introduced this year I think michelin would be able to provide HRC with competitive tire..
Hrc will have to make the adjustment now because of the control tyre rules. Why should b/stone change there tyre to suit honda and probable at the expense of all the other makes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ROCKGOD01 @ Apr 29 2009, 02:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well if they are all pretty much on a control tire here it has to be that the honda just is eating those tires. What else could it be at this point?
agreed, it must be the repsol hondas (as opposed to satellite hondas) extra 1500 rpm thats eating the front tyres...



or the setup is just wrong...

Seems like a faulty tyre more than a bike/rider style issue, otherwise it would have happened more often.

I guess Bridgestone will improve the quality control to prevent this problem, gives them bad image.

Wouldn't be bad if they brought 1 or 2 more compounds to the race, if Pirelli brings 4 to WSBK maybe Bridgestone should do the same. It's in their own interest to have the riders thinking and talking about the tyres as much as possible.

Honda will eventually build a Yamacati .Dorna have now got a cloneotypes class. Bring back he so-called "tyre war".

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (V5Stroker @ Apr 29 2009, 09:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I would like to see Pedroso and his P<strike>u</strike>ig

+1



more swine flu????


hahahahahahaha love it!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Apr 29 2009, 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It may be the case the Honda hasn't fully worked out the Yamacati method of making Bridgestone’s complement the bike just yet.
Surprisingly enough the Microbot was fast last year after changing from Michelin AND fast at Motegi even with the "chunked" tyre. How fast will he be if Honda gets the geometry right?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Apr 29 2009, 03:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was never a fan of the single tyre rule. Never will be either.

Now what we had was a Michelin domination, then in line with the underlying philosophy of a prototype class someone came up with something better (B’stone/Ducati).

I think the world of motorcycle racing would have been better IF somebody tried to think of a faster way again and the competition would have created and nurtured differing design philosophies.

What we have now is 5 manufacturers trying to build the same motorcycle, a very expensive version of the R1 cup. (Do not take that too literally).

What I am saying is that a degree of innovation has been taken away, now everyone has to build a Ducati or Yamaha clone.
Total agreement Andy... In the microcosm that is this forum we sometimes loose sight of the big picture .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chockmoose @ Apr 29 2009, 02:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>+1



more swine flu????


hahahahahahaha love it!!!
Damn, Alberto is in danger

Simoncelli nicked a curb and destroyed the front in the 250 race. Did Dani hit a curb a bit too hard during the race? It may not actually have been a tire problem and that is probably what BS is looking into. I expected worse problems than this but so far the tires have generally have been okay.

THIS JUST IN!!!

Dani will receive the best tires for the Jerez race.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teomolca @ Apr 29 2009, 02:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Seems like a faulty tyre more than a bike/rider style issue, otherwise it would have happened more often.

I was thinking the same thing. Could it be just a bad tire?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Apr 29 2009, 01:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Simoncelli nicked a curb and destroyed the front in the 250 race. Did Dani hit a curb a bit too hard during the race? It may not actually have been a tire problem and that is probably what BS is looking into. I expected worse problems than this but so far the tires have generally have been okay.

i was just thinking the same thing, then scrolled down and see your post, lol.
I don't think its a consistancy thing with the tyres, else other people would have complained at the weekend. Makes you wonder, if it just the new honda as dovi mentioned they wear the front tyres quickly. I don't really know how dani sets his bike up, but it maybe exagerating the problem of the hondas. Maybe he hit a piece of debris from a crash, i hear shards of carbon fibre can be very sharp.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Apr 29 2009, 09:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was never a fan of the single tyre rule. Never will be either.

Now what we had was a Michelin domination, then in line with the underlying philosophy of a prototype class someone came up with something better (B’stone/Ducati).

Now we have this faster style (rear weight bias etc) it has created a dominant riding style and design philosophy.

I think the world of motorcycle racing would have been better IF somebody tried to think of a faster way again and the competition would have created and nurtured differing design philosophies.

What we have now is 5 manufacturers trying to build the same motorcycle, a very expensive version of the R1 cup. (Do not take that too literally).

What I am saying is that a degree of innovation has been taken away, now everyone has to build a Ducati or Yamaha clone.
I was also always opposed to the single tyre rule, for the reasons you mention and because I thought discarding a rusted on motogp supporter like michelin, a natural fit for the sport, was unwise even before the gfc.

I continue to be amazed at dorna's diligence in repeatedly demonstrating the operation of the law of unintended consequences.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Craig3089 @ Apr 29 2009, 05:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't really know how dani sets his bike up,
Allegedly, Nicky does

Honda is suffering because of the tyres... I would say yes.
Why? because they (...Michelin heritage) need a softer tyre body, which Bridgestone are simply not supplying. Bridgestone supply differend compounds, soft and hard, but all of these compounds are on the same hard (compared to Michelin's) body.

The problem is not so much the single tyre supplier per se. Problem is, it works only if they can supply enough differetn types to suit all. If the choice is limited, inevitably it will suit some better, and some less.

Currently the happiest Bridgestone customers are of course Ducati, followed by Yamaha. Probably also because they have the only two riders (Stoner and Rossi) who always loved the harder tyre body.

I noted that neither Pedrosa nor Honda said anything about the tyre problem. I wonder why... Probably you do not want to piss your only tyre supplier these days, and communications are kept private.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Apr 29 2009, 12:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I was never a fan of the single tyre rule. Never will be either.

Now what we had was a Michelin domination, then in line with the underlying philosophy of a prototype class someone came up with something better (B’stone/Ducati).

Now we have this faster style (rear weight bias etc) it has created a dominant riding style and design philosophy.

I think the world of motorcycle racing would have been better IF somebody tried to think of a faster way again and the competition would have created and nurtured differing design philosophies.

What we have now is 5 manufacturers trying to build the same motorcycle, a very expensive version of the R1 cup. (Do not take that too literally).

What I am saying is that a degree of innovation has been taken away, now everyone has to build a Ducati or Yamaha clone.

Amen.

However, the single tire rule didn't start the march towards the R1 cup that we see today---but reducing the fuel did, imo. Yep, way back in 2005.

When DORNA started cutting fuel, teams tried to find ways to avoid braking. Turning in at high speed puts enormous g-forces on the front tire, but since the front wheel is relatively small and it is the major determinant in front-end-feel, its ability to carry high g-loads is extremely limited. Adding weight, dropping displacement, and cutting fuel another liter in 2007 caused greater emphasis on cornerspeed and simply accelerated tire development towards a rearward weight bias.

The rules have played into Ducati's/Bridgestones hands. The L-4 layout causes greater rearward bias, and until major changes to the formula, poor weight bias was a nagging weakness within the Ducati design philosophy.

It really is an interesting engineering conundrum. Mass centralization allows the bike to be turned much more easily (Honda's philosophy) and it allows the rider to have a bigger impact on the bikes handling. However, fuel has been cut so drastically, that the front tire cannot support the g-forces generated by a 50/50 weight distribution. Yamaha have always tried to balance the weight distribution by using the rider as a counterweight to the engine, that's why Rossi talked so much about changing his style (even after they changed the offset) to ride the Bridgestones. Ducati have accidentally stumbled onto the design philosophy of the future.

This gruesome nightmare would come to an abrupt end, if they'll just add fuel, create a top speed limit, and either use the control tire or safety equipment to reduce injuries during cornering. A bike is not fast on it's side. A manufacturer will only work to maximize performance at full lean if they don't have the fuel/hp to brake late and accelerate early.

Give them more fuel!!!! The emphasis on cornerspeed should dissipate, and we can have multiple tire manufacturers again. I think the lower torque of the 800s may lead to an interesting blend of cornerspeed or point-and-shoot depending upon the demands of each individual corner. Just like 2006

Or, build a dragstrip. Who needs a machine that can corner at high speed and what does that have to do with a racing motorcycle anyway?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 29 2009, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Amen.

I'm actually starting to think that this logic will work. What are the drawbacks?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Apr 29 2009, 11:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Or, build a dragstrip. Who needs a machine that can corner at high speed and what does that have to do with a racing motorcycle anyway?

You will understand some day. In the meantime keep fighting the phantom demon of drag racing.

All is vanity anyway. If a conflict is on the horizon, choose to protect your vanity. That's what the 21st century has taught me. Who cares that people are high-siding at astronomical speeds, it's much more important that we the fans never embrace drag racing with a top speed limit.

5 minutes after the first motorcycle was built they realized it was slower at full lean than it was when it was upright. We're only ignoring 1 century of motorcycling data, what's the big deal? That's the old way, we need changes.

It's obvious that we are bored and we're looking for new fun. Creating bikes that corner 50% faster than 500s while still pitching riders into the stands is probably not a good idea. Especially since fear of petrol is driving this new madness.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 29 2009, 07:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Amen.

However, the single tire rule didn't start the march towards the R1 cup that we see today---but reducing the fuel did, imo. Yep, way back in 2005.

When DORNA started cutting fuel, teams tried to find ways to avoid braking. Turning in at high speed puts enormous g-forces on the front tire, but since the front wheel is relatively small and it is the major determinant in front-end-feel, its ability to carry high g-loads is extremely limited. Adding weight, dropping displacement, and cutting fuel another liter in 2007 caused greater emphasis on cornerspeed and simply accelerated tire development towards a rearward weight bias.

The rules have played into Ducati's/Bridgestones hands. The L-4 layout causes greater rearward bias, and until major changes to the formula, poor weight bias was a nagging weakness within the Ducati design philosophy.

It really is an interesting engineering conundrum. Mass centralization allows the bike to be turned much more easily (Honda's philosophy) and it allows the rider to have a bigger impact on the bikes handling. However, fuel has been cut so drastically, that the front tire cannot support the g-forces generated by a 50/50 weight distribution. Yamaha have always tried to balance the weight distribution by using the rider as a counterweight to the engine, that's why Rossi talked so much about changing his style (even after they changed the offset) to ride the Bridgestones. Ducati have accidentally stumbled onto the design philosophy of the future.

This gruesome nightmare would come to an abrupt end, if they'll just add fuel, create a top speed limit, and either use the control tire or safety equipment to reduce injuries during cornering. A bike is not fast on it's side. A manufacturer will only work to maximize performance at full lean if they don't have the fuel/hp to brake late and accelerate early.

Give them more fuel!!!! The emphasis on cornerspeed should dissipate, and we can have multiple tire manufacturers again.
You present a well informed and balanced argument Lex.

Only thing I would disagree with is your contention that Ducati have somewhat serendipitously steered themselves on the course that the other manufacturers now want to chart. I agree with Andy's post that Yamaha and Ducati are embracing similar design ethos, one to which the other manufacturers will surely have to follow suit, but when Ducati switched to Bridgestone, they did so knowing that they would have to engineer the bike to exploit the (then) comparative advantages of the tyres. This was not done on the throw of a dice, there was a clear direction here all along. Everything that comes out of that factory in Bologna is by clinical design never happenstance.