Back Markers Under-Achievers? PART I

[quote name='Jumkie' date='Jun 17 2008, 08:33 AM' post='131880']
Good solid post.

I'm not so sure lapped riders should pull off into the pits. Perhaps the rule for the flag indicating that you are about to be passed by the lead riders should be more enforced, but I still think they should continue in the race. I feel your pain though. Just resently, a lapped rider effected the results in a Formula Extreme race and I was furious, but this is only becasue the guy who got held back was Bostrom, and frankly I'm a fan. I think this is not so much an issue in MotoGP, it is in other racing series. In MotoGP, I seldom see a lapped rider (unless its a wet race).

Question about Nakano, if he has "always" had a bad ride, then why hasn't a factory picked him up?

I'm not so sure I'm ready to see Capirossi leave simply because he is old. If he is beating his younger teammate, doesn't this count for something? If he is old and his time has gone, then what does that indicate about Vermi? (Maybe its his time who has gone, eh?)

Agreed. Backmarkers need to pull right off the racing line and way of the race leaders on first warning (given with two corners notice?!) or they are automatically out! This has been a real problem in WSBK over the years particularly.

Nakano is not very marketable and is a very quiet yet solid performer. If he was more flamboyant & rode his machine obviously beyond its limits to achieve his potential and really get noticed as riding the wheels off a limited machine, he might earn a factory ride with a good team. I could well be wrong about him, but have a feeling he is a high quality rider. His results have been hindered by poor bikes I believe (Kawasaki & non factory Honda's). He is about 30 now so its now or never for him. Maybe he is too conservative for a Japanese rider, he rides too within himself, needs to be a bit more banzai!!!!!

Capirossi has been a great rider but he has really slowed over the last couple of seasons and I fear its due to his age and losing his edge. I think its time he retired or became a test rider. He has been around too long and had so many opportunities, its sad to see a rider of his ability become so mediocre.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 16 2008, 10:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sure it’s the first half of the season, but its not too early to discuss why they haven't been running tight at the front of the lead pack so far.

Who is "lambasting"? Read the thread again, for the most part those with a substantial response are making a fair explanation that talent and machines are unique for every rider being scrutinized. Its a discussion about back markers (which they are) and I made the attempt to say something about meriting a MotoGP seat, though it was not the specific topic of discussion. The idea here is to make some sense or explanation as to why these guys run at the back consistently (that means almost always, for the most part). Sure some of these riders have broke into the top 10 every now and then, but the preponderance of the results have been back marking, hence the term. Why don't you try and give a brief explanation, rather than the tired old, ‘wait until the season is over’, to make some kind of call.

The reality is that some of these riders may not have the talent to cut it or the machine to prove their ability. That is what we are trying to figure out by asking the question. As I said in my opening post, we have a tendency of saying these back markers 'suck' but do they really? That is to say (what you are pointing out) maybe they don’t ‘suck’. That is the topic for discussion NOT should they be replace or chastised, etc.

Do you have any explanation? Can you take a moment and throw in your two cents why perhaps these guys cannot regularly compete in the top five? Your thoughts please!

ok, my thoughts then, brace y'self

1.RdP : has some talent, but cant figure out when he is overriding a crappy/slow bike. needs to wake up and finish a few races or he is gone next season.

2. Guintoli : has talent, but is stuck on a D'antin duc...kiss of death..just ask neil hodgson, reuben xaus, alex hoffman and alex barros. cant think of anyone who has benefitted from riding for that team.

3. Nakano : there is always going to be at least one japanese rider in motogp. fact. nakano is the best of them at the moment, so will continue until another rider upstages him.(aoyama/kiyonari are my picks)

4. Elias : a race winner who is now on his way out of moto gp due to that D'antin duc. a race winner and should be doing better, but maybe thats the best the satellite ducati can do?

5. Hopper : has natural ability, but is it enough to win with? and its clearly not enough to cope with the green turd of a bike. IMO performing about as well as expected.

6. West : See you in WSS in '09... no good in motogp.

7. Vermuelen : i do hold some bias here as it is a suzuki rider but vermy does confuse me a bit. 2 DNF's (not his fault) have hurt his championship standings badly, but its the .... qualifying thats really killed him. is that a bike or rider fault. IMO a bit of both and he seems to be in a bit of a melandri type situation. .... bike which has dented confidence.both suzook and vermy need to sort their .... out. might be too late for him with spies in the frame, but i hope not, because he has a lot more to offer.

that better? now watch it all change next race

It would be fair to say that CV has had a mediocre year (thus far) by his own standards. As others mentioned, a couple of DNFs haven’t helped and his qualifying is not helping his cause. He is a pretty sound racer but does need to qualify at the pointy end of the field so he can put his racing instincts to better use. Maybe he is suffering a bit from the third year blues (pardon the pun) riding for the factory Suzuki team.

Suzuki had a pretty good year last year. The 800 in its first year had a victory and a number of podiums for the riders. I expected that this year they would have improved further, but the bike seems to have stalled in its progress or possibly gone backwards. Lots of possible reasons why – experience and capability of the riders and the team, the capacity of the factory (technically, financially) and the commitment and desire of all the parties involved. There are so many variables! Is the factory delivering the bike the riders want or the one they think they need?! Who knows with the Japanese!

I remember reading an interview with one of the ten kate brothers that CV was like a machine when it came to providing technical feedback on the bike. If we believe that, he should be capable of giving the factory the information they need to build a better bike. Perhaps they have built the only bike that they have the capacity to build and therefore what we are seeing is the current maximum from Team Suzuki (without the saviour Spears on board

On a side note … was watching the WSBK on Sunday night and the commentators were discussing Troy Bayliss’s possible replacement next year on the factory Ducati 1098. Ducati asked Bayliss … he told them CE11jr was the man, but Kevin Magee commented that Ducati are sniffing around at another possible replacement from MotoGP … CV!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 16 2008, 11:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That is a good point. Do the riders on the grid automatically qualify in MotoGP? In the case of the AMA, the rider must be within a certain percentage of the qualifying time of the poll setter.


I know they do in the 125cc and the 250cc but I'm not actually sure if they do in the top class, you would have thought so.

Other wise if I had a few spare million pounds to spend I could go and race!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (krusty @ Jun 17 2008, 12:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>was watching the WSBK on Sunday night and the commentators were discussing Troy Bayliss’s possible replacement next year on the factory Ducati 1098. Ducati asked Bayliss … he told them CE11jr was the man, but Kevin Magee commented that Ducati are sniffing around at another possible replacement from MotoGP … CV!
on another side note,

i have often wondered how CV would go on the GP8 or 9...?

ducatis only seem to fit aussies and the occasional englishman(in WSB) so it would be interesting.
Hayden v CV both on dukes....that would be interesting to watch.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Jun 17 2008, 08:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>on another side note,

i have often wondered how CV would go on the GP8 or 9...?

ducatis only seem to fit aussies and the occasional englishman(in WSB) so it would be interesting.
Hayden v CV both on dukes....that would be interesting to watch.

As tough as it will be to swallow, there needs to be a serious shake-up in MotoGP.

Vermy really needs to let go of the "sheene passion" and just ditch the #7/Susuki dreams. It just ain't gonna happen for him on that team.

Hayden already has one foot out the door, thanks to HRC and I hope he will have a chance to ride the GP9.....but, will he go for the Bridgestones?? Hmm, maybe Chris the V will look better in RED than the KFC Kid, the tire experience he would bring would really help heaps...

What can be done for Melandri and Elias? Hell, even a move back to Gresini would be a wasted effort until Honda gives them competetive bikes. Maybe Fausto will have pneumatic valves by the start of '09... or, will we be looking at a green Monster Melandri?!?

I really wish Nakano could end up back at Kawasaki--he seemed to have better results with them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>(Jumkie @ Jun 16 2008, 11:46 PM)
That is a good point. Do the riders on the grid automatically qualify in MotoGP? In the case of the AMA, the rider must be within a certain percentage of the qualifying time of the poll setter.

no they dont, i think they have to be within 10% of the poll sitters time, or they used to. who knows now with the amount of rules changes dorna like to do to flex there mussels.

i no you want a more substantial post from me on this subject mate but to be honest i aint got a clue why some riders are so far off the pace this year, but as i remember most years always have been a battle of the few. run away races are nothing new. over the past few years i have not seen anyone get lapped like we used to in the past so you could say the competition has got better, i think its more a case of the field getting thinner tho.
there are several disappointing riders for me , but there's know way of telling why, not that i care to put into writing here anyway. im very much looking forward to debating this type of thing with you over a few beers, i think you may find me harder to verbally fence with than in writing

one thing i do know from experience is, when you dont like or fit a bike it is everything. ive ridden bikes i feel part of and ive ridden bikes i just want to jump off.

I would like to give a response to the topic in general, Back Markers Under-Achievers. As stated, there will always be back markers and under-achievers in every race. But the question that its consistently always the same people is very interesting. Some have put the blame on the rider, some on the team or bike manufacturer, and some to both. Given that it is accepted that many of the riders are out of contention by the end of the first lap I would like to take this a step further. All but 4 riders are out of contention by lap four and almost always the race winner is decided by the 5th lap and most of the times all the podium spots. Looking back on the results its always the same 4 or 5 people that are standing on that podium. Can anyone compare past seasons, has it always been like this? I am surprised that no one has come out and given the same old "Any Given Race Day" comment. Because yes, anything can happen but I would argue that this statement has been, so far this season, untrue. Every race has been predictable and almost downright boring with a run away race winner. Which leads us back to the topic at hand and the question of why there isn't more people battleing for podium spots. Of course you can't have one huge blob of people all the time rolling around the track all competing for top spots but why is it always consistently the same folks running at the front? The answer that I would argue is that we are still in a transistion year. I don't think that it comes down to the riders <span style="font-size:8pt;line-height:100%(although West is the only one I think that needs to leave).
The machines are still developing and will always develope jsut not in this dramatic of fashion. Many have called the 2006 season one of the best. I would argue that its because many of the manufacturers had caught up and were on a more even playing field. The bikes had reached their pinnacle of development with only minor changes and tweaks to give a very minor advantage. The 800's roll out and its a race to see who can get to the pinnacle the fastest. Yamaha have found a good base and a great bike in their developement. Even supplying there factory teams with very competitive equipment. This is why we see them running up front normally. Of course they have great riders but put anyone of them on a satelite Honda even Rossi, and same story middle to back pack with the occasional great ride. Honda, Suzi, and Kawa have yet to figure out the formula that works for their bikes. They are still in a very primitive form of development and are really struggling to catch up but they will, just maybe not this season. The occasional good ride from one of these teams is that they have done something right with the setup and or the rider had a ride of his life. The Ducati is a very interesting story and it has been beaten to death so I won't go to much into that.

As I mentioned earlier in my post, take these top riders and put them on a satelite team and vice versa, would we see a flip flop in the standings? Would Hopkins on Rossi's yamaha beat Rossi on Hopkins kawasaki on a consistent bases? Would the race be closer? Take Toseland and put him on a Nakano's Honda and where would the standings be? So is it the bike or the rider today?

I think that many of the riders deserve to be there. Nakano, Melandri, Elias, Hayden, Hopkins, Capi, Dovi, De Angelis, Chris Vermulen, Elias all deserve their rides and on any given raceday will be there in the end but their equipment jsut doesn't match up. Until we see something from there manufacturers that says we have found the answers they will continue to be what you like to call Back Markers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Jun 17 2008, 05:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The machines are still developing and will always develope jsut not in this dramatic of fashion. Many have called the 2006 season one of the best. I would argue that its because many of the manufacturers had caught up and were on a more even playing field. The bikes had reached their pinnacle of development with only minor changes and tweaks to give a very minor advantage. The 800's roll out and its a race to see who can get to the pinnacle the fastest. Yamaha have found a good base and a great bike in their developement. Even supplying there factory teams with very competitive equipment. This is why we see them running up front normally. Of course they have great riders but put anyone of them on a satelite Honda even Rossi, and same story middle to back pack with the occasional great ride. Honda, Suzi, and Kawa have yet to figure out the formula that works for their bikes. They are still in a very primitive form of development and are really struggling to catch up but they will, just maybe not this season. The occasional good ride from one of these teams is that they have done something right with the setup and or the rider had a ride of his life. The Ducati is a very interesting story and it has been beaten to death so I won't go to much into that.

As I mentioned earlier in my post, take these top riders and put them on a satelite team and vice versa, would we see a flip flop in the standings? Would Hopkins on Rossi's yamaha beat Rossi on Hopkins kawasaki on a consistent bases? Would the race be closer? Take Toseland and put him on a Nakano's Honda and where would the standings be? So is it the bike or the rider today?

I think that many of the riders deserve to be there. Nakano, Melandri, Elias, Hayden, Hopkins, Capi, Dovi, De Angelis, Chris Vermulen, Elias all deserve their rides and on any given raceday will be there in the end but their equipment jsut doesn't match up. Until we see something from there manufacturers that says we have found the answers they will continue to be what you like to call Back Markers.

Great post Sack, this is exactly the point I was trying to make. We're only in the 2nd year of 800's so the development changes are still huge, couple into that the big advances on the electronic side of things just in the last few years and we got a very uneven playing field. Some teams are doing great at development and some are still trying to figure it out. I don't even want to factor in tires.

As I said in my earlier post, this is prototype racing, and when the teams are constantly testing and experimenting during a time of huge rule changes we are going to mostly see racing between the manufacturers/teams rather then racing between riders. Last year was a great example as a fast rider that was previously very prone to crashing seemingly comes out of no where, wows everyone and dominates the championship. Likewise we watch guys like Melandri and Hayden drop like stones down the order, did they suddenly just suck at doing their life's work?

The back markers are all great racers else they would never have been considered in the first place. Some deserve to be there more then others, some on better teams then others, but if we all want close racing we either need more rules or more time for the playing field to level on the technical side of things.

I've said it before, and I should probably make a signature out of it but: Give me one race at the end of the season, everyone races on bone stock production bikes, pick any manufacturer I don't care, lets see who is the best rider.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jun 17 2008, 05:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You're not "lambasting" Randy are you? (Hahaha)

Kiss of death--good point, hadn't realized the list of capable victims.

Dude, you made some excellent points. Great insight. Expecially the one above about D'antin that I had not thought of. You see, that wasn't so hard. Thanks for not giving up on this thread.

And yes, I realize these riders could start winning all of a sudden, possible but not likely. But these guys do have a way of proving us wrong every now and then, eh. So I get your disclaimer. Solid post.

no worries jumkie..

you caught me at the wrong end of a long frustrating day yesterday (see the zim thread in the lounge for reasons why) so my response this morning was probably OTT. sorry for that and i will try and keep the speculation going.