Back Markers Under-Achievers? PART I

What is the explanation for the back markers?

I made a list of our back markers (excluding Hayden & Melandri).

Disclaimer: Obviously Hayden & Melandri have under achieved. Keep in mind, under-achieving indicates that they are better than the results they’ve had so far. A person who is not that great and has bad result is NOT under-achieving, but rather meeting poor expectations. I excluded Hayden & Melandri from the list below because, well hell they get full dedicated threads about their woes, so I thought lets talk about the rest of the crew.

So excluding Hayden & Melandri, why have the following boys performed so badly (or have they)?

Current Points Standings and Rider/Team

10th Nakano (Honda Gresini satellite)
11th Vermeulen (Suzuki factory)
12th Hopkins (Kawasaki factory)
15th Elias (Ducati Alice satellite)

If we are to believe that the riders in MotoGP are the top riders in the world (for the sake of this thread, just accept it), then why is half the lower part of the grid dramatically out of contention after the first lap? Some of these riders come close to a minute plus past the finish line after the race winner, why? Are there special explanations or circumstances that 8-10 of the 18-rider grid is effectively an after thought in each and every race? (You can add your own question).

What is the explanation? Are they really under achieving? What is your verdict?

My answer: (It’s a long comprehensive one, but if you got the time, and you like to discuss MotoGP, then you might be willing to read the whole thing). We regularly bash the riders that end up as back markers in the race as riders that suck or haven't lived up to expectations. So what is the real story, or is there one?

Lets start with Nakano. Perhaps the notion of "token Japanese" rider comes to mind. But remember this guy was the closest man to come to being a 250 champion (he lost it on the last turn of the last race to Jacques by .0 something fraction of a second). We could be saying he was a champ, but he was a respectable runner up, so he got to MotoGP on merit, but does he belong to stay here, well you be the judge. Since then he has a total of 3 podiums in MotoGP, zero wins (never a pole that I can remember). This year he is 10th at the moment in points, so “mid-packer” would define his performance. This guy is consistent though--consistently 9th or 10th! (He's had three 10th & three 9th so far). Is he underachieving? I'd say he's about as good as he is gonna be at the premier class. Honda has had their problems, but Gresini is a fairly good team, certainly not a factory effort. Verdict: I'd say as far as expectation, it’s just an even push. He is performing as expected, mid-pack.

Vermeulen is another guy here on merit. He won a World Supersport title and was runner up at the superbike level. Hes won one race in MotoGP (in the wet, but on a Suzuki). He's had three poles and 5 podiums, but this year he's had a bit of bad luck. He virtually had a DNF in Qatar (17th, tire problem) and a DNF in China (don't remember why). But taking a look at his finishes, most have been around 8-10th. He did have one good 5th in France. But if accumulated points mean anything, he is behind his older teammate Capi who has not finish outside the top 10! (Except for this last DNF, not his fault). Some like to throw out the "old" guys but Capi has 9 MotoGP wins to date (was a contender in 06 until again he was crashed). So judging from his teammate, Vermi is not doing to hot. So can we blame the Suzuki on this one? My answer is no, its not his bike’s fault. Verdict: Vermi is under achieving for sure, I think he has more talent than his results have shown, step it up.

Hopkin was just credited for the youngest rider ever to have 100 MotoGP starts, certainly an accomplishment, after-all he was in the premier class at 18 years of age. He was snatched up early after (not one) but two AMA titles (Supersport & Formula Extreme--the AMA's version of middle-weight Superbikes). So we can put to rest whether or not he is here on merit, clearly he is. Much is made here about rider's ability to “develop” a bike, .... at 18, I could barely ‘develop’ to get my .... out of my pants fast enough to land getting laid, let alone figure out a multi-million dollar one-off prototype machine at the pinnacle of the sport. Now throw in the fact its a Suzuki into that mix that he had to ride--oh yeah, your appreciation should go up just a bit for the man. But what have you done for me lately, right? Well last year he had his best year 4th in points (that's saying a lot for Suzuki). But this year he's on a Kawasaki. That alone should be enough to excuse him (check to see who else has been successful on a green factory bike--ever). So lets look at the tail of the tape this season. So far, hes had two DNFs (chain broke on one forgot why other). Hes had two respectable finishes 5th & 7th, but the rest have been well outside the top ten. So for now, I'm gonna blame his bike and that groin injury at the start of the season. Verdict: Not under achieving, I blame the ...... bike for most of it.

Elias is credited for one of the most spectacular race wins at Portugal, but this year he is having problems. If we give a pass to Nakano for the very close runner up to a championship, then what is the standard to discern whether Elias merited a MotoGP seat? Well he did win 7 times on a 250 with 20 podiums, but is that enough? If ever there was an award for most spectacular racing style, Elias would surely be the easy favorite. But as racing has it, results (usually in the form of significant titles) are usually the standard. Toni has the distinction of being one of several young boys who have had favor with a certain Alberto Puig (AKA the Anti-Christ), so perhaps Toni got in for his boyish good looks (reference Puig's list including Dani & Casey). But I'm gonna go with--it was for his "talent". They say the proof is in the pudding, and even though Elias has been dubbed "Scud" (as in that ...... ballistic missile that Sadamite Hinsane popularized) it may amaze you to know that in his first two seasons in MotoGP (28 starts) the man scored points in all but two of them. Now lets look at this year. Has he forgotten how to ride, or does the fact that 3 of the 4 riders on a Ducati are out of the baker's dozen in points (yeah, I was surprised myself, 3/4 out of the top 12). I could easily say the bike is the problem, but how do I explain Stoner? (Oh yeah, I forgot, the bike rides itself). I'm gonna go with, Stoner is a freak of nature. But then how much is Elias to blame? He DNFed at the last race (only once for a guy who has a reputation as a crasher, perhaps we may need to rethink that), but even then he has only once cracked the top 10, he scored 8th in China (the rest have been 14th & 15th regularly). It’s hard to say, but I'm going with a combination of bike and rider as the problem. Verdict: Almost even push, a bit under achieving on a rather ...... bike.

Yes, I did have too much time on my hands. So please take a moment to comment on what you think about the topic and the riders mentioned.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (roger-m @ Jun 14 2008, 01:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>well someone has to come last !

i think to see if there up to the grade regardless of track position you need to compare there lap times. sometimes we have seen the top 10 separated by only a few tenths, that shows how good the competition is rather than how bad some riders are. i think we sometimes need to look at our watches to remind us how little a second is over a 2 or 3 mile circuit.

They are separated by a few tenths only in qualifying, but NOT in the race after a few laps. So I don't think it says anything good about the strength of the competition as results are concerned (at least not these last two years). I will give you that in 06, the competition was much tighter. Hell, if KRjr had passed basic math in grade school we might have seen a true privateer win a race. Today, we would be hard pressed to see a back marker compete for a win on the last lap.

Come on man; give me something more than just, well they are doing ok if you consider the circuit is 2 and change miles long. Give me some substance. It seems rather embarrassing for the sport when the premier class is really about 3-4 riders competing for a win with the occasional brilliant wet race winner coming from the mid-pack. But take 10-18th and you may never see a race win. What does that say? Should we just get rid of these back markers and be more honest about the competition?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Jun 14 2008, 01:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nakano...The results thus far are a long way behind last seasons on the Gresini Honda with Elias and Melandri. So in summing up I believe the bike is better than the results provided by the rider.


Hopkins - Can't decide .. However Randy stood out more on last years bike than Hopper has this year. 5th's to 7th's are acceptable considering the machinery and the injuries he has had to endure this year. Therefore Hopper gets a pass for now but both the bike and rider need to step up in the 2nd half of the season.

Elias -Hasn't got close to achieving the results Barros or even Hoffman got on the satellite Ducati last year. Tony was known for pushing too hard and coming off the Gresini Honda last year. The fact that he's hardly come off the bike this year tells me perhaps he isn't pushing the bike or is uncomfortable to push the Ducati too hard. Underachieving is the verdict for me on Elias.


Thanks for taking the time to write a substantial response.

I'm not so sure Nakano's bike is all that great. But I admit, Melandri and Elias made the Gresini Honda stand out a bit more. The point you make about DePuniet making the Kawasaki stand out more made me think, was it this that perhaps convinced Hopkins to leave Suzuki in their development baby steps for what seemed 'Greener' pastures? (No pun). Yeah, you are right, I did see the Kawasaki as a more formidable bike while Randy road it and I thought, man if this guy would just finish the damn races, we would see a streak of green in the top 5-7 more regularly. Perhaps Kawasaki thinking they needed a more consistent finisher but just as aggressive would push them over the hump? Interesting.

Funny you say that Elias hasn't come off so perhaps he's not pushing. It’s ironic, isn't it? I think the man has done some growing up. Pain from injuries makes you think (well it would seem except for DePuniet). But then again, Elias had a rod up his femur, and rode courageously for the rest of the season in pain. Perhaps he just want a break for Clinica Mobil.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Jun 16 2008, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>this might be a little premature dont you think?

the season is not exactly over yet and many things can happen between now and valencia. they might be backmarkers or mid-packers now, but one good upgrade could propel them much closer to the front and then we could be saying "he started slowly this season but look how well he finished"..
IMO wait until the dust of '08 has settled before lambasting any of the riders and calling for their replacement/retirement/removal..
Sure it’s the first half of the season, but its not too early to discuss why they haven't been running tight at the front of the lead pack so far.

Who is "lambasting"? Read the thread again, for the most part those with a substantial response are making a fair explanation that talent and machines are unique for every rider being scrutinized. Its a discussion about back markers (which they are) and I made the attempt to say something about meriting a MotoGP seat, though it was not the specific topic of discussion. The idea here is to make some sense or explanation as to why these guys run at the back consistently (that means almost always, for the most part). Sure some of these riders have broke into the top 10 every now and then, but the preponderance of the results have been back marking, hence the term. Why don't you try and give a brief explanation, rather than the tired old, ‘wait until the season is over’, to make some kind of call.

The reality is that some of these riders may not have the talent to cut it or the machine to prove their ability. That is what we are trying to figure out by asking the question. As I said in my opening post, we have a tendency of saying these back markers 'suck' but do they really? That is to say (what you are pointing out) maybe they don’t ‘suck’. That is the topic for discussion NOT should they be replace or chastised, etc.

Do you have any explanation? Can you take a moment and throw in your two cents why perhaps these guys cannot regularly compete in the top five? Your thoughts please!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hayden Fan @ Jun 14 2008, 08:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If Hopkins really cared about being a champ or winner, he'd have stayed at Suzuki or tried to go to a better squad than Kawasaki. He is about the money and not the performance.
I think Hopkins really cares about being a champ. This is why he moved to Kawasaki. There are a few members that I have read (you being one of them) that think his move was done for purely for a payday. But here is the fact. Suzuki, now having a string of pretty good riders, has not had much success. Why? Well in part because the factory has not made the kind of commitment to become a top machine and team. Hopkins has had plenty of patience with this team. Frankly, if you put yourself in his shoes, you might say, screw these guys, I gave them the better part of my youth, and little to no major improvements have been done. Sure they had improved in 07, but it was too little too late in my opinion. It takes its toll and sometime people want to move on.

Now remember back to all the talk and rumors around the media, and followers of the sport, regarding Kawasaki's renewed commitment to put forward a winning bike and team? It was everywhere. Kawasaki was seen as serious about their plans, infusing money into their program. This is very attractive to a rider who wants to win. Yet for all this you question whether he is committed? Where is Suzuki now? Answer, exactly where they have been the previous years, good, but not good enough. So why not take that risk? Its not like he went to a satellite team for more money, he went to a factory, as their number one rider; I'd say that would be pretty encouraging if you were him. Has it paned out. Not yet for sure, but it seems a bit harsh to question his commitment to winning.

But hey, it’s cool. That is your take, and its just opinion. And that is what I wanted to read--that is, some kind of explanation as to why these guys are not performing as expected.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AB#1 @ Jun 15 2008, 12:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Any rider who is one turn from being lapped should be out of the race automatically and pull off the circuit upon first warning.

I agree with the comments on Nakano, he has always had a bad ride riding for some poor Honda teams and any rider on a Kawasaki is not going to have a chance to ride anywhere near their potential and achieve any results,

Elias obviously has great potential having won a MotoGP race... He just doesn't seem to know how to set up his bike and needs everything perfect before he can ride hard for a good result.

Vermuelen is a rider with terrific potential ...He should be retained by Suzuki and lead the team into the future with Ben Spies as his teammate

(see you later Capirossi your time has come and gone..)

Hopkins ... I think he was fast tracked into MotoGP a bit too early for his own good and there are quite possibly many other riders who deserve an opportunity more than him.
Good solid post.

I'm not so sure lapped riders should pull off into the pits. Perhaps the rule for the flag indicating that you are about to be passed by the lead riders should be more enforced, but I still think they should continue in the race. I feel your pain though. Just resently, a lapped rider effected the results in a Formula Extreme race and I was furious, but this is only becasue the guy who got held back was Bostrom, and frankly I'm a fan. I think this is not so much an issue in MotoGP, it is in other racing series. In MotoGP, I seldom see a lapped rider (unless its a wet race).

Question about Nakano, if he has "always" had a bad ride, then why hasn't a factory picked him up?

Elias and set up, can that Ducati even be set up for him to succeed? Geez, God knows Melandri and Guintoli are trying to get that illusive set up to match their riding style. Elias's style is from another planet.

I'm not so sure I'm ready to see Capirossi leave simply because he is old. If he is beating his younger teammate, doesn't this count for something? If he is old and his time has gone, then what does that indicate about Vermi? (Maybe its his time who has gone, eh?)

Good point about Hopkins. I have often thought he was moved up too young. Maybe getting him to rider another year or two Stateside might have prepared him for the set up and development demands in MotoGP. (Who knows, he might have gotten hurt in a national race and we would have never seen him in the premier).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Eagle088 @ Jun 14 2008, 07:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My opinion on the matter, good post by the way.

Vermeulen is an awesome rider. I think if he were on a better bike he would be a regular front runner. Chris is a tale of the bike I think. How motivated can you be to run hard every lap when you have been battling for 9th your whole MotoGP career. I give him the full benefit of the doubt.


Hopkins is one of those natural talents. A natural talent that has not taken it for granted. He deserves to be in GP and on a better bike he would be a front runner every weekend. The only reason he ever crashes is because he refuses to get passed and tries way way way to hard.

What about DePunt-your-.... How did he get here and why is he still here. Wadding up bikes is just part of his daily routine. Getup, brush teeth, have breakfast, wad up a bike, go to the gym, lunch, wad up a bike, wad up a bike, make an excuse, have dinner, bone a nasty french chick, wad up a bike and go to bed using the seat for a pillow.
Solid.

I'm a bit confused by Vermi at the moment. He is younger than Capi, but at the moment he is being beat, just as he did last year to Hopkins. So here we have a guy who has been beat by a younger now older rider. Two different guys. I don't know, Vermi is a nice guy, and I think the wet race ability is what's keeping him in MotoGP. Which frankly might be a good enough reason.

Depuniet most likely got here because he was good enough, but once here, it hard to make a case in keeping him if you were the guy writing checks for the parts purchase order.