AustralianGP 2017

p4p1 said:

I would think it slightly funny if Yamaha deciding to keep Rossi over Vinales resulted in them having a similar situation with the bike as Honda have had recently.

I think too much weight is given that Rossi was able to win on three different configurations when really of the guys we consider true top talent he has been the only one who has been given the opportunity. It's not ridiculous to say that without Doohans crash he may not have won the 500cc simply for not having Burgess' experience and technical know how of having worked with Honda for such a long time. That doesn't take away from him winning championships I'm just simply saying that he's the only guy who has been there at the right time, with the right amount of advantages, luck(getting JB was IMO huge for his career but out of his control) and talent to be able to remain competitive across 4 different rule sets. I do believe that Jum is right though that Michelin have helped him remain competitive. We all saw what happened towards the end of 2015 and if on the Bridgestones still he may when everyone else is firing(MM,DP,AD,MV,JL) only be a capable of 6th or below just like in 2015 when those on similar equipment were up and running he was only capable of 4th.

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Thing is Lorenzo was most competitive on Bridgestones, look at what happened when he lost them. Do you think less of him because he can't perform on Michelin?

JPSLotus said:

Thing is Lorenzo was most competitive on Bridgestones, look at what happened when he lost them. Do you think less of him because he can't perform on Michelin?

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Well it's not strictly true. He could perform on the Michelins he just couldn't perform consistently on the 'new and improved' Michelins that replaced the ones he used to dominate testing and Qatar on. Adaptibility has always been a weakness for Lorenzo. Last year on the Michelin he still won 4 races only one less than Marquez. 10 podiums put him equal second on that account as well he was able to be competitive for sure.

RCV600RR said:

I definitely see your viewpoint, but I would submit that there is no 'better' or 'worse' bike in a vacuum. If you ask me which bike is best, I'll answer: which bike is best for whom? JL may beat Dovi if they're both riding a Yamaha or Honda, but might get pummeled by Dovi if they're both riding Ducatis. Then again, Dovi on the Ducati likely beats Dovi on the Yamaha. However, JL on the Yamaha beats JL on the Ducati. Which bike is better? For Dovi, the Ducati. For JL, the Yamaha.

As I've always argued, there is no 'best' bike. Motorsport is about the package: what is the best (i) rider (ii) bike (iii) tyre and (iv) team package? I think the Yamaha on Michelins requires a different style (i.e. the more '250' style) than the Ducati on Bridgestones. Rossi and Lorenzo are excellent at that 250 style, whereas CS was generally outperformed by DP on the 250s.

Stoner did not go much faster than, say, Dani Pedrosa on the Repsol Honda in 2011 and 2012. In fact, Pedrosa was ahead of him in points in 2011 before SIC took him out in Le Mans. Similarly, in 2012, Lorenzo was leading CS in the points when CS broke his ankle at Indy.

The bike/rider/tyre/team interface is a strange one that we still do not fully understand. Some riders (like CS and VR) appear to be very adaptable (Stoner particularly on premier class bikes with big horsepower, and Rossi on a variety of small and big bikes, with the exception of the Ducati). I think MM falls in that class too.

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I am not sure what your point is about 2011, Pedrosa was only in front of Stoner because Rossi took him out with one of the most ridiculous moves I have seen from an experienced rider of his calibre when Stoner, a noted wet rider was riding conservatively well ahead of Dani at Jerez 2011. Stoner also backed off in the first turn of the following race when Simoncelli nearly took him out with an ambitious move on cold tyres, knowing a second DNF with the then relentless Lorenzo as an opponent would likely have been curtains for his title hopes if the first one hadn’t already been. Dani on the other hand chose to mix it with Simoncelli who had caught up 4 seconds on him and already passed him leading on to the straight where Dani’s factory horsepower allowed him to get back level.

Where would Ducati be without Dovi?

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Also, what's happened to Shaunna? I hope she's ok.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Jumkie said:

Where would Ducati be without Dovi?

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

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Where would Honda be without Marquez?

RCV600RR said:

Lorenzo beat Rossi handily in 2013, but after Rossi switched to Galbusera, (an ageing!) Rossi beat Lorenzo 2-1 in the next few championships.

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Where are you getting you figures? rossi has won no chapionships since galbusera came in.

Lorenzo won 1 so thats at least Lorenzo is infinitely better than rossi.

JPSLotus said:

I may be being slightly dramatic.

But I don't think the RCV has been a consistently great bike by any means outside of 2011-2014.

Great point about the ability of those riding and winning on it though because that had a lot to do with the success too.

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To be sure - I said that, because it lends support to your assertion that the RCV is by no means the Holy Grail. It's so easy to assume the Honda is the best because of it's association with exceptional riders like Hailwood, Agostini, Spencer, Lawson, Doohan etc. Stoner's been quoted as saying how it was a dream come true to ride the Repsol because his hero Doohan made his mark in those colors. He never said, it's a dream come true because Honda is the best bike.

Well it's out. Hack Oxley's fluff piece on PI. Guess what? Not even a mention of Millers broken leg, but in the same paragraph he managed to mention Rossi's broken leg....!

While Márquez absolutely needed to avoid an accident, Johann Zarco risked everything to get his first MotoGP win, Andrea Iannone tried for his first Suzuki podium by any means necessary, Jack Miller wanted a home MotoGP podium and Valentino Rossi wanted his first win since he broke his leg, or indeed as much as he ever wants a win. Maverick Viñales was the only other rider in the title fight, but only just, and he was out of it by the end of the race.

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How Márquez checked out in Australia

No mention of Miller's comeback, nor that he lead the race with a broken leg on a 3rd tier customer Honda. I had tried to give this guy a pass, but that is just shocking.

RCV600RR said:

Good post.

I take exception to this part though.

Lorenzo beat Rossi handily in 2013, but after Rossi switched to Galbusera, (an ageing!) Rossi beat Lorenzo 2-1 in the next few championships.

On the Yamaha, I think Lorenzo is generally stronger when the bike and tyres are close to an ideal operating window, but Rossi is faster everywhere else.

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It's difficult to discuss without sounding biased. I admit I'm a Lorenzo fan and it's difficult to make this statement without sounding biased, but in terms of raw speed, Rossi has been very rarely near Lorenzo since 2010. He beat him in 2014 because Lorenzo left his head somewhere for the first good 1.4 of the season, crashing out of the lead in Qatar, jumping the start in COTA etc. In the second half of the season Lorenzo never finished off the podium and outscored Rossi. The same goes for 2016 when Rossi beat Lorenzo through consistency rather than outright pace. That said, Rossi rode better than Lorenzo in early 2014 and while I won't say he rode better in 2016, he certainly was more consistent. We also have to factor in that Lorenzo's bike spec was effectively frozen from at least the summer break.

Rossi outscoring Lorenzo in 2014/2016 is along the lines of Lorenzo outscoring Rossi in 2010. Simply that in those respective years, the rider ahead did a better job (in the case of 2010, Lorenzo keeping it on the tarmac when Rossi didn't).

I still think that had Stoner been drafted to Yamaha, Rossi would have spit his dummy a long time before he did with Lorenzo, and probably wouldn't have won the 08 and 09 titles.

p4p1 said:

Where would Honda be without Marquez?

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Just fine. Honda would continue to score wins and contend for the championships.

The general sentiment being entertained by a few of you guys that the Honda is/was horrible is fascinating. Same goes for Yamaha. Saying the Honda and Yamaha need to "improve" to contend for the championship does not recognize they are competing against eachother. They don't compete in a vacuum, who do you guys think these two are competing against? Despite the relativity of their shortcomings the championships are decided against the same two manufacturers: HONDA & YAMAHA! To read Honda is getting "killed on the exits" or is out braked because of the Ducati "aero advantage" doesn’t account the overall parity. Newsflash, Honda/Yamaha have won the title in the last 9 years and are on the cusp of another with & without Marquez! It's taken an extraordinary effort by Stoner to win 07 and it's been and extraordinary effort by Dovi to contend 2017, both on the underdog machine. I hope nobody's head explodes, but it has been an extraordinary effort by Dovi, nobody else has won multiple races on the Ducati, this "easy to ride" bike that is supposedly competing against the .... Honda and toothless Yamaha. 4 of the top 5 machines in points are: Honda & Yamaha! The 'exception': Ducati in the top 5, which sticks out like a Muslim at a pork factory.



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

JPSLotus said:

I think it's safe to say the RCV and GP17 are both .... bikes.

How about that?
....

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Well then, let me rift off your premise if I may...

MARQUEZ, on a ".... HONDA" is an: alien, brilliant, marvelous, phenomenal, championship contender, Stoner Territory, insert superlative here.

DOVIZIOSO on a ".... DUCATI: is...meh. move along, nothing to see here.

How about that?

Out of curiosity, is the M1 also ....?



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Jumkie said:

Well then, let me rift off your premise if I may...

MARQUEZ, on a ".... HONDA" is an: alien, brilliant, marvelous, phenomenal, championship contender, Stoner Territory, insert superlative here.

DOVIZIOSO on a ".... DUCATI: is...meh. move along, nothing to see here.

How about that?

Out of curiosity, is the M1 also ....?



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

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What did Dovizioso do on the Ducati prior to 2016?

Who took the first Ducati victory since Casey Stoner prior to Austria 2016?

Can I claim Iannone was the real alien?

Marquez has won every single year on the RCV in SPITE of having one hand tied behind his back. Dovizioso started winning when winglets showed up on the Ducati.

Kind of makes me wonder...

The M1 has always been the best balanced bike of the bunch historically till Yamahaha decided Rossi really was a development god and decided his direction was to be followed at all costs.

Jumkie said:

Just fine. Honda would continue to score wins and contend for the championships.

The general sentiment being entertained by a few of you guys that the Honda is/was horrible is fascinating. Same goes for Yamaha. Saying the Honda and Yamaha need to "improve" to contend for the championship does not recognize they are competing against eachother. They don't compete in a vacuum, who do you guys think these two are competing against? Despite the relativity of their shortcomings the championships are decided against the same two manufacturers: HONDA & YAMAHA! To read Honda is getting "killed on the exits" or is out braked because of the Ducati "aero advantage" doesn’t account the overall parity. Newsflash, Honda/Yamaha have won the title in the last 9 years and are on the cusp of another with & without Marquez! It's taken an extraordinary effort by Stoner to win 07 and it's been and extraordinary effort by Dovi to contend 2017, both on the underdog machine. I hope nobody's head explodes, but it has been an extraordinary effort by Dovi, nobody else has won multiple races on the Ducati, this "easy to ride" bike that is supposedly competing against the .... Honda and toothless Yamaha. 4 of the top 5 machines in points are: Honda & Yamaha! The 'exception': Ducati in the top 5, which sticks out like a Muslim at a pork factory.



If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

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Oh for ..... sake, rewatch Losail 2015/6 and let me know how well the Honda was exiting the final corner and come back to this topic. The RCV acceleration issues in 2015 and 2016 were well documented pal, take the blinders off already.

BarryMachine said:

Where are you getting you figures? rossi has won no chapionships since galbusera came in.

Lorenzo won 1 so thats at least Lorenzo is infinitely better than rossi.

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Awkward wording, sorry. I meant in the point totals.

michaelm said:

I am not sure what your point is about 2011, Pedrosa was only in front of Stoner because Rossi took him out with one of the most ridiculous moves I have seen from an experienced rider of his calibre when Stoner, a noted wet rider was riding conservatively well ahead of Dani at Jerez 2011. Stoner also backed off in the first turn of the following race when Simoncelli nearly took him out with an ambitious move on cold tyres, knowing a second DNF with the then relentless Lorenzo as an opponent would likely have been curtains for his title hopes if the first one hadn’t already been. Dani on the other hand chose to mix it with Simoncelli who had caught up 4 seconds on him and already passed him leading on to the straight where Dani’s factory horsepower allowed him to get back level.

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That's a good point. I guess my point was that DP and CS were pretty evenly matched before the injury caused by SIC's silly pass, and the same goes for JL and CS in 2012.

JPSLotus said:

Oh for ..... sake, rewatch Losail 2015/6 and let me know how well the Honda was exiting the final corner and come back to this topic. The RCV acceleration issues in 2015 and 2016 were well documented pal, take the blinders off already.

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Think ledger. Think performance characteristics.

You're disputing this: "To read Honda is getting "killed on the exits" or is out braked because of the Ducati "aero advantage" doesn’t account the overall parity."

Neither of us need to re-watch anything to debate what is being said right here, but I suggest you read the entire statement pal; I've highlighted the part that is pertinent. This RCV that had this "acceleration issue" which you are over exaggerating wasn't enough of a disadvantage to contend for the championship (as per Marc himself) AND it was the winning machine in 2016.

You're post above disputes something that is not being disputed pal. The magnitude of the acceleration issue you're focused on does not overcome the overall parity advantage it enjoys. The races Marc crashed out in during 2015 were for the lead of the race...to quote you, for .... sake. My assertion is, whatever imperfections the RCV had it was competing against machines that had their own imperfections, the net difference remains: advantage HRC. Also, a bit of context, this discussion is in relation to Ducati and Dovi's performance on a fickle career killing machine (despite its 'specific strengths' which you insist are the reason Dovi has beat Marc's RCV) against the Honda and Yamaha's overall domination of the sport.

I may be blind as a bat, I'll give you that, but I don't need to re-watch the Honda's exit characteristics and then conclude the bike is .... when its contending for race wins and championships buddy.

Jumkie said:

Think ledger. Think performance characteristics.

You're disputing this: "To read Honda is getting "killed on the exits" or is out braked because of the Ducati "aero advantage" doesn’t account the overall parity."

Neither of us need to re-watch anything to debate what is being said right here, but I suggest you read the entire statement pal; I've highlighted the part that is pertinent. This RCV that had this "acceleration issue" which you are over exaggerating wasn't enough of a disadvantage to contend for the championship (as per Marc himself) AND it was the winning machine in 2016.

You're post above disputes something that is not being disputed pal. The magnitude of the acceleration issue you're focused on does not overcome the overall parity advantage it enjoys. The races Marc crashed out in during 2015 were for the lead of the race...to quote you, for .... sake. My assertion is, whatever imperfections the RCV had it was competing against machines that had their own imperfections, the net difference remains: advantage HRC. Also, a bit of context, this discussion is in relation to Ducati and Dovi's performance on a fickle career killing machine (despite its 'specific strengths' which you insist are the reason Dovi has beat Marc's RCV) against the Honda and Yamaha's overall domination of the sport.

I may be blind as a bat, I'll give you that, but I don't need to re-watch the Honda's exit characteristics and then conclude the bike is .... when its contending for race wins and championships buddy.

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You say the Desmosedici is a career killer in recent times, but Casey Stoner said after riding the GP15 that it was a race winning bike. It was argued on here around that time that both Dovi and Iannone were simply underachieving on the Desmosedici and I don't recall anyone really arguing to the contrary, yourself included.

What if I said the real issue is that Ducati should have kept Iannone and not gone running for Lorenzo?

JPSLotus said:

1.What did Dovizioso do on the Ducati prior to 2016?

2.Who took the first Ducati victory since Casey Stoner prior to Austria 2016?

3.Can I claim Iannone was the real alien?

4.Marquez has won every single year on the RCV in SPITE of having one hand tied behind his back. Dovizioso started winning when winglets showed up on the Ducati.

Kind of makes me wonder...

4.The M1 has always been the best balanced bike of the bunch historically till Yamahaha decided Rossi really was a development god and decided his direction was to be followed at all costs.

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1. He got the best results of all the Ducati riders.
2. Iannone, is there a point here?
3. Yes, you can. Then, like all opinions, defend the assertion.
4. Agree. However, the Yamaha would get killed on power, but but but...

JPSLotus said:

You say the Desmosedici is a career killer in recent times, but Casey Stoner said after riding the GP15 that it was a race winning bike. It was argued on here around that time that both Dovi and Iannone were simply underachieving on the Desmosedici and I don't recall anyone really arguing to the contrary, yourself included.

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The Ducati is not a career killer? This is the position you're going to argue pal?

Other than Rossi getting bailed out by Carmelo Clause, it has jettisoned riders to: psychologist, clinica mobil, looking for employment, to struggle outside the top 10, and to quit. For close to a decade nobody other than Casey Stoner won on that "easy to ride" Ducati, let alone multiple races which until this year was achieved, by Dovi. It has had several world champions try too and all of them have failed to win a race (against the "...... Honda" I might add). Notable riders: Melandri, Gibernau, Hayden, Spies, Rossi, Lorenzo (recently) amassed ZERO wins spanning 10 years!

Casey Stoner won on every awful iteration of the DucatiGP, he would say the GP07,08,09....GP17 are "winning bikes", this is not exactly insightful. However, is a matter of fact the GP15 won zero races; BECAUSE the ...... Hondas and toothless Yamahas won every single races. And not just by one of the factory riders, 'each' of the factory Honda/Yamaha riders won races--an indication of the far superior package to the Ducati (which I can't believe I have to argue). You don't recall me arguing the contrary because I normally don't argue the obvious, I don't need to argue the Aprillia and KTM are not winning bikes, do I? There's no need to argue the Ducati is not a race winning bike because I recognize it must win against the factory Hondas and Yamahas with elite riders that line up next to it buddy.

JPSLotus said:

What if I said the real issue is that Ducati should have kept Iannone and not gone running for Lorenzo?

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Haha, you reminded me of the Matrix meme "What if I told you...." I don't think too many people here would support this position. I like Iannone, but he hasn't harnessed gusto into restrain like Lorenzo, not to mention Lorenzo is a more skilled and cerebral rider that Ducati benefits from on the team.