AustralianGP 2017

Jumkie said:

1. He got the best results of all the Ducati riders.
2. Iannone, is there a point here?
3. Yes, you can. Then, like all opinions, defend the assertion.
4. Agree. However, the Yamaha would get killed on power, but but but...

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2) The Ducati rocketship could have taken anyone to a victory at Austria.
3) Already said the 2015 and 2016 iterations of the RCV were atrocious bikes based on all documented fact. In fact the 2016 title winner was the worst title winning bike since Casey Stoner won on the trellis-framed GP7.

The Ducati is not a career killer? This is the position you're going to argue pal?

Other than Rossi getting bailed out by Carmelo Clause, it has jettisoned riders to: psychologist, clinica mobil, looking for employment, to struggle outside the top 10, and to quit. For close to a decade nobody other than Casey Stoner won on that "easy to ride" Ducati, let alone multiple races which until this year was achieved, by Dovi. It has had several world champions try too and all of them have failed to win a race (against the "...... Honda" I might add). Notable riders: Melandri, Gibernau, Hayden, Spies, Rossi, Lorenzo (recently) amassed ZERO wins spanning 10 years!

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The career killer Ducatis were over with by 2013. You cannot reasonably mention Ben Spies anyway pal. He rode a whopping what 2 or 3 races on the Ducati before his career was done in by injuries. Or do you blame the bike for that? I'm focusing on the 2013 and on period which is really when Ducati started turning a corner. They've progressively improved every single year since 2013. A win or wins were inevitable with their rate of progress. 2017 is the culmination of all of their progress. They've had Dovi since 2013...shocker that stability with riders matters as does consistent development arcs.

Casey Stoner won on every awful iteration of the DucatiGP, he would say the GP07,08,09....GP17 are "winning bikes", this is not exactly insightful. However, is a matter of fact the GP15 won zero races; BECAUSE the ...... Hondas and toothless Yamahas won every single races. And not just by one of the factory riders, 'each' of the factory Honda/Yamaha riders won races--an indication of the far superior package to the Ducati (which I can't believe I have to argue). You don't recall me arguing the contrary because I normally don't argue the obvious, I don't need to argue the Aprillia and KTM are not winning bikes, do I? There's no need to argue the Ducati is not a race winning bike because I recognize it must win against the factory Hondas and Yamahas with elite riders that line up next to it buddy.

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Ah yes but we can still consider what Stoner said irrespective of what you personally think. The GP15 had the chops to win a race. It didn't happen. Dovi is an alien though according to you and he couldn't get it done. Alien riders don't not win on bikes capable of winning races. This is why I said ages ago there have only been two alien riders in the 4 stroke era: Stoner and Marquez. Once in a generation talents are just that. Dovi is not a once in a generation talent. He's hit his peak at just the right time that Ducati finally hit their peak with engineering.

Haha, you reminded me of the Matrix meme "What if I told you...." I don't think too many people here would support this position. I like Iannone, but he hasn't harnessed gusto into restrain like Lorenzo, not to mention Lorenzo is a more skilled and cerebral rider that Ducati benefits from on the team.

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I don't think anyone would support the position tbh, but really if the goal is to win, Iannone would have been a far better second rider than Lorenzo. Will alone isn't enough to win races. I give Lorenzo an ungodly amount of credit for working on changing riding style and not giving up. He isn't getting enough credit from anyone out there in this sport for what he has been trying to accomplish on that bike considering the Golden God outright quit and couldn't even be bothered to try and learn to ride the Desmo. Thing is that it may come at a significant price to Lorenzo's career as we don't know what or where he will be at when 2019 rolls around. I do think if nothing else he is a highly stabilizing presence, but GP is very much a win now atmosphere. Hence why I say Iannone may have been the better choice for 2017. 1 year deal nothing more. Oh well, it is what it is. Hope we see a competitive Lorenzo in 2018 because him winning on that bike would mean he did what Rossi couldn't do.

RCV600RR said:

That's a good point. I guess my point was that DP and CS were pretty evenly matched before the injury caused by SIC's silly pass, and the same goes for JL and CS in 2012.

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As I said, I disagree. Stoner had dominated Dani in testing, won Qatar, was well ahead of him in the rain at Jerez as a much more noted wet rider riding conservatively when taken out by an egregiously stupid move by Valentino whom he had elected not to contest for position, and was 3 seconds down the road at Le Mans when Dani had his contretemps with Simoncelli who had already caught him up by 4 seconds and previously passed him at the time Dani made his decision to force Simoncelli of all riders to concede a corner. Dani was faster than Stoner at Estoril only is the bottom line, where Stoner wisely decided not to engage Simoncelli anyway.

I am sorry, but it is disingenuous to argue a Simoncelli “what if” for Pedrosa when there was a much more egregious Rossi “what if” for Stoner. Stoner also proceeded to make no riding errors for the remainder of the 2011 season, something Dani does not habitually manage over the course of a full season, a major reason Stoner is a 2 time premier class world champion and Dani is not. 2012 is different, I have no problem acknowledging Lorenzo and Pedrosa for their 2012 seasons, and Dani was ahead of Stoner in the points on merit when Stoner crashed out of the title race at Indy 2012.

Jumkie said:

Think ledger. Think performance characteristics.

You're disputing this: "To read Honda is getting "killed on the exits" or is out braked because of the Ducati "aero advantage" doesn’t account the overall parity."

Neither of us need to re-watch anything to debate what is being said right here, but I suggest you read the entire statement pal; I've highlighted the part that is pertinent. This RCV that had this "acceleration issue" which you are over exaggerating wasn't enough of a disadvantage to contend for the championship (as per Marc himself) AND it was the winning machine in 2016.

You're post above disputes something that is not being disputed pal. The magnitude of the acceleration issue you're focused on does not overcome the overall parity advantage it enjoys. The races Marc crashed out in during 2015 were for the lead of the race...to quote you, for .... sake. My assertion is, whatever imperfections the RCV had it was competing against machines that had their own imperfections, the net difference remains: advantage HRC. Also, a bit of context, this discussion is in relation to Ducati and Dovi's performance on a fickle career killing machine (despite its 'specific strengths' which you insist are the reason Dovi has beat Marc's RCV) against the Honda and Yamaha's overall domination of the sport.

I may be blind as a bat, I'll give you that, but I don't need to re-watch the Honda's exit characteristics and then conclude the bike is .... when its contending for race wins and championships buddy.

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Outside of Arabb, I don't think there is one person on this forum that can watch a race and spot the intricacies of corner entry/exit, braking,throttle control etc These are observations that can only be spotted by someone that has had a shitload of seat time at the track.

RCV600RR said:

Awkward wording, sorry. I meant in the point totals.

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Well thats a bit of a dud point then .... more rounds etc.

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Outside of Arabb, I don't think there is one person on this forum that can watch a race and spot the intricacies of corner entry/exit, braking,throttle control etc These are observations that can only be spotted by someone that has had a shitload of seat time at the track.

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That's true... if you conveniently forget 22, a competitive Kart racer, Gaz, a corner marshal who regularly attends races in the flesh, Kesh, a retired racer and team manager, the rather succinct Dr. No who has a keen eye for detail, Barry who's raced for years etc etc etc. It's just that loquacious Arrib, tends to use a lot of eloquent prose to describe his observations, making for vivid pictures in the mind of less experienced fans who might otherwise not grasp the details of what he describes.

Little Walter said:

That's true... if you conveniently forget 22, [snip]......

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Well, you can leave yourself out of it, if you wish, but some of us might take exception to being left out with you. There are different opinions on why riders and bikes have the success or failure that they do, but most regulars seem to be able to see the basics, imo.

In case anyone doubts that the Ducati of Stoner's day is different than the current one, which HE has helped developed, they should remember how crazy those bikes were: motogp-never-go-back-to-800cc. Once the tires were sorted and Honda and Yamaha figured things out, the Ducati was doomed without CS.

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Outside of Arabb, I don't think there is one person on this forum that can watch a race and spot the intricacies of corner entry/exit, braking,throttle control etc These are observations that can only be spotted by someone that has had a shitload of seat time at the track.

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And Babelfish.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

BarryMachine said:

Well thats a bit of a dud point then .... more rounds etc.

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Point totals at the end of each year (i.e. where did each rider finish in the respective championship standings).

michaelm said:

As I said, I disagree. Stoner had dominated Dani in testing, won Qatar, was well ahead of him in the rain at Jerez as a much more noted wet rider riding conservatively when taken out by an egregiously stupid move by Valentino whom he had elected not to contest for position, and was 3 seconds down the road at Le Mans when Dani had his contretemps with Simoncelli who had already caught him up by 4 seconds and previously passed him at the time Dani made his decision to force Simoncelli of all riders to concede a corner. Dani was faster than Stoner at Estoril only is the bottom line, where Stoner wisely decided not to engage Simoncelli anyway.

I am sorry, but it is disingenuous to argue a Simoncelli “what if” for Pedrosa when there was a much more egregious Rossi “what if” for Stoner. Stoner also proceeded to make no riding errors for the remainder of the 2011 season, something Dani does not habitually manage over the course of a full season, a major reason Stoner is a 2 time premier class world champion and Dani is not. 2012 is different, I have no problem acknowledging Lorenzo and Pedrosa for their 2012 seasons, and Dani was ahead of Stoner in the points on merit when Stoner crashed out of the title race at Indy 2012.

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Yes, that's a good point. CS was leading Dani at Le Mans and ultimately would've been ahead of DP in the standings if VR didn't pull one of the most stupidly overambitious moves in recent GP memory.

I think my point can only really apply to 2012 (and I suspect CS would've finished ahead of DP but for the ankle injury). Stoner is much better than DP.

BTW, has anyone noticed how much DP's form has dropped since he dismissed Puig?

Iamapony said:

Well, you can leave yourself out of it, if you wish, but some of us might take exception to being left out with you. There are different opinions on why riders and bikes have the success or failure that they do, but most regulars seem to be able to see the basics, imo.

In case anyone doubts that the Ducati of Stoner's day is different than the current one, which HE has helped developed, they should remember how crazy those bikes were: motogp-never-go-back-to-800cc. Once the tires were sorted and Honda and Yamaha figured things out, the Ducati was doomed without CS.

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You can count yourself among the etc etc. As for me, I didn't mention myself along with the others because I have THE BEST modesty. Believe me!

Little Walter said:

That's true... if you conveniently forget 22, a competitive Kart racer, Gaz, a corner marshal who regularly attends races in the flesh, Kesh, a retired racer and team manager, the rather succinct Dr. No who has a keen eye for detail, Barry who's raced for years etc etc etc. It's just that loquacious Arrib, tends to use a lot of eloquent prose to describe his observations, making for vivid pictures in the mind of less experienced fans who might otherwise not grasp the details of what he describes.

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As usual you contrive ........ to be my personal contrarian. Listen to someone like Kevin Schwantz call a race. The little nuances he observes are not things some dude that played Mario Kart will ever recognize. Listening to people on this forum parrot those observations like they see them is a joke.
Dani Pedrosa has been credited by his peers as the best at corner entry. Without them telling us this, would anyone on this forum have recognized that?
Maybe you would since Im sure you read about in a book somewhere

JohnnyKnockdown said:

As usual you contrive ........ to be my personal contrarian. Listen to someone like Kevin Schwantz call a race. The little nuances he observes are not things some dude that played Mario Kart will ever recognize. Listening to people on this forum parrot those observations like they see them is a joke.
Dani Pedrosa has been credited by his peers as the best at corner entry. Without them telling us this, would anyone on this forum have recognized that?
Maybe you would since Im sure you read about in a book somewhere

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No, not really. You're not any kind of a special target. I debate with lots of folks here. The difference between you and them, is the other people have at least the veneer of substance in their replies. Whereas you always come back with some personal put-down, because you're incapable of backing up any of your statements. What I saw was you demeaning other Powerslide members with real world racing experience and as usual, sucking up to Arrib who you surely have a major crush on.

Mario Kart? You should try riding a 250cc shifter kart. Not a toy. 160 mph with your ass 5 inches from the ground. Defo, not a toy.

Little Walter said:

That's true... if you conveniently forget 22, a competitive Kart racer, Gaz, a corner marshal who regularly attends races in the flesh, Kesh, a retired racer and team manager, the rather succinct Dr. No who has a keen eye for detail, Barry who's raced for years etc etc etc. It's just that loquacious Arrib, tends to use a lot of eloquent prose to describe his observations, making for vivid pictures in the mind of less experienced fans who might otherwise not grasp the details of what he describes.

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Actually, I have neighbors, a husband and wife who've done corner marshal stuff at tons of races and they are hugely entertaining to watch a race with because they catch stuff that gets right by me. I get how someone who's only seen races on Tee Vee would think that corner marshals are just overenthusiastic fans shoving crashed bikes around in the dirt.

Little Walter said:

No, not really. You're not any kind of a special target. I debate with lots of folks here. The difference between you and them, is the other people have at least the veneer of substance in their replies. Whereas you always come back with some personal put-down, because you're incapable of backing up any of your statements. What I saw was you demeaning other Powerslide members with real world racing experience and as usual, sucking up to Arrib who you surely have a major crush on.

Mario Kart? You should try riding a 250cc shifter kart. Not a toy. 160 mph with your ass 5 inches from the ground. Defo, not a toy.

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Its obvious I am you target because you created an argument citing people who I never called into question. Ive been here quite some time and none of them have ever tried to wow you with ......... Nice try but like most of your lonely posts, an abject failure
I did quite enjoy your .... examples though. You forgot Povol. He has watched a lot of NASCAR, Im sure that's applicable

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Its obvious I am you target because you created an argument citing people who I never called into question. Ive been here quite some time and none of them have ever tried to wow you with ......... Nice try but like most of your lonely posts, an abject failure
I did quite enjoy your .... examples though. You forgot Povol. He has watched a lot of NASCAR, Im sure that's applicable

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"Outside of Arabb, I don't think there is one person on this forum that can watch a race and spot the intricacies of corner entry/exit, braking,throttle control etc These are observations that can only be spotted by someone that has had a shitload of seat time at the track."

You definitively dismissed the observations of everyone on this forum. Clearly, your paramour Arrib is in your eyes they only person here whose race observations hold water. As far as Povol goes, you will never in your wildest dreams ever be as sharp an observer of racing.

As for you being the only person I ever disagree with, you're like a hollow echo of Trump complaining about the fake media.

Little Walter said:

"Outside of Arabb, I don't think there is one person on this forum that can watch a race and spot the intricacies of corner entry/exit, braking,throttle control etc These are observations that can only be spotted by someone that has had a shitload of seat time at the track."

You definitively dismissed the observations of everyone on this forum. Clearly, your paramour Arrib is in your eyes they only person here whose race observations hold water. As far as Povol goes, you will never in your wildest dreams ever be as sharp an observer of racing.

As for you being the only person I ever disagree with, you're like a hollow echo of Trump complaining about the fake media.

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Haha. Keep posting. Your insecurity about how your perceived by forum members is quite glaring. How dare someone be smarter and way more interesting than you.
You have no idea why I used Arabb as an an example and I won't bother to tell you why. I prefer watching that foot stuck in your mouth

JohnnyKnockdown said:

Haha. Keep posting. Your insecurity about how your perceived by forum members is quite glaring. How dare someone be smarter and way more interesting than you.
You have no idea why I used Arabb as an an example and I won't bother to tell you why. I prefer watching that foot stuck in your mouth

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As usual, you pivot and deflect and dance the ........ Dance never actually replying to anything said. You're not Trump's PR advisor are you?

Little Walter said:

As usual, you pivot and deflect and dance the ........ Dance never actually replying to anything said. You're not Trump's PR advisor are you?

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What did I not reply to? Your demanding I reply to a query you never made.
You have said nothing, your typical general musings that bounce all around the subject but never address the point. You lace your disjointed posts with big words to facilitate your desire to appear thoughtful.
If you happen to notice, your posts are largely ignored.
As Trump would say, you are an empty barrell

JohnnyKnockdown said:

As usual you contrive ........ to be my personal contrarian. Listen to someone like Kevin Schwantz call a race. The little nuances he observes are not things some dude that played Mario Kart will ever recognize. Listening to people on this forum parrot those observations like they see them is a joke.
Dani Pedrosa has been credited by his peers as the best at corner entry. Without them telling us this, would anyone on this forum have recognized that?
Maybe you would since Im sure you read about in a book somewhere

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Dani has been credited with standing the bike up and getting out of corners as a strong point of his riding, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say corner entry was a Pedrosa strong point as he is one of the weakest brakers in the line up.

Dovizioso and Rossi are credited with being the best late brakers, along with Marquez I believe.

Cal is the GOAT when it comes to late braking though, he waits until he's off the track before applying brake.