Assen

Keshav said:

Now you're just being pedantic. Fogarty while much liked as a rider, was not in the same class as any of the top riders of today's paddock. Certainly you don't want to try and put him in the same category as Hailwood. Foggy, is a charismatic side-note in the history of MotoGp who never seriously challenged Rossi or any of his contemporaries, known for lurid rear wheel slides and zero championships in the premiere class. And I said, racers from the last 15 years. Fogarty retired in 2000. A great Superbike racer, but hardly someone to be thought in the same category as Hailwood or Ago.

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Actually, he was superb at the Island.

He wasn't known for rear slides though, his style was more economical/in line than that - combined with a ridiculously high corner speed which is why he was the king of Assen on the 916.

Remember, Foggy never contested GP, so how could he challenge? He wild carded on several occasions. I mentioned on a recent thread in the discussion about the Cagiva. I was there at Doni when he rode the development ride which had been rejected by mad John and Chandler. It was arranged through Castiglioni's links with Ducati, his job was to race and bring home the fuel injection motor and would have finished on the rostrum given that Schwantz crashed on the first lap - but the bike ran out of fuel and coasting in at fourth.

Fogarty never switched to GPs because firstly WSBk was massive at the time and was pulling bigger crowds and TV audiences (in the 90s Brands was the biggest sporting event by attendance in the UK). Secondly, he was never guaranteed a competitive motorcycle - Remember Corser's disaster in 1996? I think that he was certainly talented enough (given the right machinery) to have tamed a 500cc motorcycle in the late 90s - but he could never have taken it to Doohan. And you're absolutely right, Ago and Mike were a different class.

I think Foggy said the only way he'd move to GP is if he had the same bike as Doohan.

Arrabbiata1 said:

Actually, he was superb at the Island.

He wasn't known for rear slides though, his style was more economical/in line than that - combined with a ridiculously high corner speed which is why he was the king of Assen on the 916.

Remember, Foggy never contested GP, so how could he challenge? He wild carded on several occasions. I mentioned on a recent thread in the discussion about the Cagiva. I was there at Doni when he rode the development ride which had been rejected by mad John and Chandler. It was arranged through Castiglioni's links with Ducati, his job was to race and bring home the fuel injection motor and would have finished on the rostrum given that Schwantz crashed on the first lap - but the bike ran out of fuel and coasting in at fourth.

Fogarty never switched to GPs because firstly WSBk was massive at the time and was pulling bigger crowds and TV audiences (in the 90s Brands was the biggest sporting event by attendance in the UK). Secondly, he was never guaranteed a competitive motorcycle - Remember Corser's disaster in 1996? I think that he was certainly talented enough (given the right machinery) to have tamed a 500cc motorcycle in the late 90s - but he could never have taken it to Doohan. And you're absolutely right, Ago and Mike were a different class.

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When you're right you're right. I mis-worded re: IOM. And mis-remembered about the rear wheel slide thing. I never really followed him, but seem to recall someone here years ago, posting a video of him doing giant slides, leaving patches of black through multiple turns at PI, and folks here going on glowingly recalling said slides.

gui22a said:

...
Even riders are not ignoring this fact, don't know why you are doing it.....

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What is being ignored is the performance of the machines. The different motorcycle performances are all relative to their own track record, aren’t it? People on this forum want two and two to equal five, when it's always been man + machine equals success.

Here, Dovizioso is a riding genius who has been screwed by inferior equipment since 2008, including a factory Honda that his teammate won the championship on. You can't win at this level of competition with a machine that can't win. Two plus two equals four. The engine design has changed already, and most likely will be adapted for the WSBK Panagale.

Has anyone noticed how poorly Pedrosa does in some races? Is that because Pedrosa is a riding genius on inferior machinery, or is it because he really should retire? All I know is that Pedrosa beat Dovizioso on the same equipment. And no one called Pedrosa a genius and the Honda a wreck when he did it. And what about Vinales? He wins one weekend and crashes the next. Is it that the Yamaha is an inferior product or the rider? Tough questions to answer that will seem to follow little common sense around here.

Dovisioso has never challenged for the Championship. Unless you think he found his prayers to Madonna answered and is suddenly a new rider, my common sense says that Petrucci and Dovizioso are doing better because the motorcycle is better. And again, I wouldn't throw out the baby (engine) because the water (chassis) looks a little dirty.

AntG said:

I think Foggy said the only way he'd move to GP is if he had the same bike as Doohan.

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Ah Fogarty.

The rider who would always vote himself as the best rider of the year in all polls (the only other to have done so was Biaggi after Fogarty)

Gaz said:

Ah Fogarty.

The rider who would always vote himself as the best rider of the year in all polls (the only other to have done so was Biaggi after Fogarty)

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He did love himself a bit :giggle:

Iamapony said:

What is being ignored is the performance of the machines. The different motorcycle performances are all relative to their own track record, aren’t it? People on this forum want two and two to equal five, when it's always been man + machine equals success.

Here, Dovizioso is a riding genius who has been screwed by inferior equipment since 2008, including a factory Honda that his teammate won the championship on. You can't win at this level of competition with a machine that can win. Two plus two equals four. The engine design has changed already, and most likely will be adapted for the WSBK Panagale.

Has anyone noticed how poorly Pedrosa does in some races? Is that because Pedrosa is a riding genius on inferior machinery, or is it because he really should retire? All I know is that Pedrosa beat Dovizioso on the same equipment. And no one called Pedrosa a genius and the Honda a wreck when he did it. And what about Vinales? He wins one weekend and crashes the next. Is it that the Yamaha is an inferior product or the rider? Tough questions that seem to follow little common sense around here.

Dovisioso has never challenged for the Championship. Unless you think he found his prays to Madonna answered and is suddenly a new rider, my common sense says that Petrucci and Dovizioso are doing better because the motorcycle is better. And again, I wouldn't throw out the baby (engine) because the water (chassis) looks a little dirty.

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You seem to have a limitless capacity for making judgements founded on baseless assumptions. Who precisely is "ignoring" the performance of the Ducati? It is fully one of the most speculated upon topics on this site for years now. Seems you believe that everyone wants Ducati to not do well. Au contraire. Powersliders have been rooting for Ducati for years in hopes that they will equal or better the Japanese companies, if for no other reason, than it makes for better racing when there are more than two teams up on the podium year after year. Interesting too, that you, up and down the line, want to give credit to the bike, and discount the possibility that the riders are improving.

Gaz said:

The Marquez front end slide that Arrib may refer to - https://streamable.com/49wmu

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That looks to me to be deliberate.

Iamapony said:

What is being ignored is the performance of the machines. The different motorcycle performances are all relative to their own track record, aren’t it? People on this forum want two and two to equal five, when it's always been man + machine equals success.

Here, Dovizioso is a riding genius who has been screwed by inferior equipment since 2008, including a factory Honda that his teammate won the championship on. You can't win at this level of competition with a machine that can win. Two plus two equals four. The engine design has changed already, and most likely will be adapted for the WSBK Panagale.

Has anyone noticed how poorly Pedrosa does in some races? Is that because Pedrosa is a riding genius on inferior machinery, or is it because he really should retire? All I know is that Pedrosa beat Dovizioso on the same equipment. And no one called Pedrosa a genius and the Honda a wreck when he did it. And what about Vinales? He wins one weekend and crashes the next. Is it that the Yamaha is an inferior product or the rider? Tough questions that seem to follow little common sense around here.

Dovisioso has never challenged for the Championship. Unless you think he found his prays to Madonna answered and is suddenly a new rider, my common sense says that Petrucci and Dovizioso are doing better because the motorcycle is better. And again, I wouldn't throw out the baby (engine) because the water (chassis) looks a little dirty.

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Only one word can answer all of your inquires: tires. That donut shaped rubber that rounds under the bike.

About Desmo16 ported do WSBK, by the rules the bike should be one in production line. I can't see any Ducati V4 in the landscape going to market. At least not anytime soon.

Gaz said:

Ah Fogarty.

The rider who would always vote himself as the best rider of the year in all polls (the only other to have done so was Biaggi after Fogarty)

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Gaz
I seem to remember Marty Craggill sporting the "mad eyes" logo thingy before Flogarty co-opted them. Or am I just letting my dislike for that bloke get in the way of thinking...?

Dr No said:

Gaz
I seem to remember Marty Craggill sporting the "mad eyes" logo thingy before Flogarty co-opted them. Or am I just letting my dislike for that bloke get in the way of thinking...?

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Craggill (from memory) used to sport the Mad Eyes when he first started which was likely before Foggy - will see if I can find any early shots of MadEyes

Mind you, maybe my dislike colours my eyes as well lol

MdubSTYLIE said:

Everyone remain quiet. This one is for Jumkie.

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Mudstyle, you should bring back the awards show. I'd like to nominate Cunthole in the Gaslighting category: BEST WORK ETHIC. Credits include; talking .... about your employer's components, Tech3, quiting half-way into a contract (though let's face it, he quit way before the halfway point) and whining publicly in parc ferme to the cameras about testing duties for HRC, currently LCR.

Can I get a twofer? Another nomination, same category: MOST REFRESHINGLY GENUINE. Being an arrogant ....... is the new genuine. Speak your mind, say mean things, verbalize being an ........, we all want to do it, except we don't; because.... well, self-control (apparently not as praiseworthy as blurting our .... talk). When Buttflow raged at Pedrosa for 'crashing' (yeah... I know, right?) Crashy ....'s "explained" it was because Pedro didn’t come clean, who had his hands in the prayer position. Obviously, this confused Cuntslow, because he's an English bloke, and that seemingly immediate universally understood apologetic gesture was in Spanish. One might not fault .... for being confused, concussions I'm told, affect emotional composition, and let's face it, Crashloads has had a few alot. It's not like Honda are interested in constructors points, Pedro deserved being publicly disrespected after the emotions had calm down and Buttflow was asked about it on TV, way way after the incident. But regarding the award, when he was interviewed, it was all refreshingly genuine, saying he was glad Dani lost his 2nd in points championship position. Proof, that sulking your mind, and saying thee most inappropriate ...... thing is the new praiseworthy authenticity; we all should teach the youngsters. Honesty was on display, no, no, I assure you, Cuntslow didn’t lie about Pedrosa's lack of regret for the crash, besides it should transcend being an .......; Clown Cuntslow's initial displayed is acceptable. Honesty, despite lying, is honest lying. And that's the truth. Crashloads said he raged at Dani because Dani was not immediately apologetic. You see, Cuntslow is not some robotic PR machine. He tells it like it is, even when it's the most disingenuous thing to explain away your behavior to the cameras.

Actually, I need a threefer, yes, another nomination is in order to the gaslighting category. MOST COMEDIC THINGS SAID. It's almost a subset of Most Refreshingly Genuine, except when Comic Cuntshow says something mean spirited, the awkward moment in the room begs a contrived laugh by the audience, and tah dah...hilarious moment. Calling your more talented colleagues whimps is the new funny. Hahaha, geez, ....I needed to pause for a moment. Regain my composure, because....well, FUNNY!!! Crap Cuntslow is the Andy Kaufman of GP, though Crappie's jokes are far more complex. And...may I add, Kaufman's were funny when you got the joke. We would be hopelessly and erroneously thinking the .... .... says is arrogant if it wasn't for a bit of explanation, 'trust me'. The good news is that Clown Kuntslow has deployed a British contigent of experts in legendary British humor to assure us, those mean spirited arrogant verbal outbursts are in fact funny. So, hahaha lol, LOL, LMFAO!

Well, if the gaslighting category is not O'fool, may I take the liberty in one more nomination? MOST LIKED PADDICK LIKED POPULAR (it's like, Farcebook, we know you're liked because, well, there's no dislike button.) Hack Oxley and other Brits have assured us that Cueen Cuntwhore (not to be confused with attention whore) is popular because despite .... talking being a way to get everybody's attention, attention via being a loud obnoxious person = popularity. If we were to hold a popularity contest in the paddock, .... Mouthflow would win hands down; or...hands up, or hands flailing, as is his custom.

Oh wait, I need a fifer, that's right, a 5th nomination. Category: Gaslighting. MOST DETERMINED RIDER. Nobody crashes this much, Hack Oxley actually counted, and it turned out to be the MOST of anybody, though it's a testament to his determination; they don't call him The Groundhog for nothing. Like the movie, it's a recurring theme of crashdetermination crash determination crash determination repeat repeat repeat. And just like that, crashing, the new praiseworthy trait yo. It's important to note, as I'm sure you will include it in the award citation, that no other riders in GP, or any other form of professional motorsport gets up after a crash. That's unique determination Crashloads possess.

Oh wait, I'm being told he's not known as the Groundhog. Uhm, I know it was some kind of small vermin type animal. A mole perhaps, yes, I think so, it takes a lot to burrow through gravel like that. Oh wait, no, I think it was hedgehog, mowing down those hedges. Ah, I remember, the Moneybadger! Costing his employer money bags, obliterating liveries, destroying equipment, and annihilating leathers in the name of testing. Work ethic isn't cheap, but then again, neither is popularity.

gui22a said:

........I can't see any Ducati V4 in the landscape going to market. At least not anytime soon.

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Next year.

J4rn0 said:

Next year.

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This is a proto. Where do you read that it's 2018? Also:

“I confirm Ducati is working on a four-cylinder engine project for a road bike,” said Ducati CEO Claudio
Domenicali a few months ago, speaking at the firm’s race team press conference. And there are huge ramifications for the WSB team, which will also get the new V4 – although not until 2019, as confirmed by WSB racing boss Paolo Ciabatti: “We will race with the Panigale for 2017 and 2018, so obviously we will keep developing the engine to be competitive.”

2019 at least.

So, they are going to race an outlined bike in WSBK? I don't think so. I think it's more reasonable to think in 2019.

gui22a said:

This is a proto. Where do you read that it's 2018? Also:

“I confirm Ducati is working on a four-cylinder engine project for a road bike,” said Ducati CEO Claudio
Domenicali a few months ago, speaking at the firm’s race team press conference. And there are huge ramifications for the WSB team, which will also get the new V4 – although not until 2019, as confirmed by WSB racing boss Paolo Ciabatti: “We will race with the Panigale for 2017 and 2018, so obviously we will keep developing the engine to be competitive.”

2019 at least.

So, they are going to race an outlined bike in WSBK? I don't think so. I think it's more reasonable to think in 2019.

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AFAIK, they are ready and only waiting to have a good year in MotoGP to launch the bike the following winter. So 2018 is a concrete possibility.

The production of the stock version has to start at least 1 year before the new superbike can be ready to race in WSBK. So yes, the Panigale twin will have to serve at least an additional season or even two, as Domenciali said, -- meanwhile the new V4 will be tetsted in stock races. Just as it happened with the Panigale, btw.

Little Walter said:

You seem to have a limitless capacity for making judgements founded on baseless assumptions. Who precisely is "ignoring" the performance of the Ducati?........ Interesting too, that you, up and down the line, want to give credit to the bike, and discount the possibility that the riders are improving.

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Apparently you don't actually read these threads or you would know of whom I speak. Since I have decide to buck the trend here, and be a gentleman, I will not mention names. You also don't appear to read my post where I specifically say that rider plus machine equals success. Once again, 2+2 = 4, not the 5 that you erroneously suggest.

gui22a said:

....
About Desmo16 ported do WSBK, by the rules the bike should be one in production line. I can't see any Ducati V4 in the landscape going to market. At least not anytime soon.

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J4rn0 said:

The production of the stock version has to start at least 1 year before the new superbike can be ready to race in WSBK.

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The rules state that 125 units must be produced before the start of competition. And they have all year to produce 250 units. For Ducati, that shouldn't be an issue, even with a $39.9k machine. If history is any indication, they will have no problem selling 500+ exclusive machines. (I don't believe there is anything about a year prior to competition.) I wish I could find the exact quote from Ducati Kingdom, where they say that they are ready to roll for next year in WSBK

I think it will be great to have WSBK back to even size. I also think the Ducati will do great with the V4 - assuming Davies is still racing.

J4rn0 said:

AFAIK, they are ready and only waiting to have a good year in MotoGP to launch the bike the following winter. So 2018 is a concrete possibility.

The production of the stock version has to start at least 1 year before the new superbike can be ready to race in WSBK. So yes, the Panigale twin will have to serve at least an additional season or even two, as Domenciali said, -- meanwhile the new V4 will be tetsted in stock races. Just as it happened with the Panigale, btw.

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Iamapony said:

Apparently you don't actually read these threads or you would know of whom I speak. Since I have decide to buck the trend here, and be a gentleman, I will not mention names. You also don't appear to read my post where I specifically say that rider plus machine equals success. Once again, 2+2 = 4, not the 5 that you erroneously suggest.


The rules state that 125 units must be produced before the start of competition. And they have all year to produce 250 units. For Ducati, that shouldn't be an issue, even with a $39.9k machine. If history is any indication, they will have no problem selling 500+ exclusive machines. (I don't believe there is anything about a year prior to competition.) I wish I could find the exact quote from Ducati Kingdom, where they say that they are ready to roll for next year in WSBK

I think it will be great to have WSBK back to even size. I also think the Ducati will do great with the V4 - assuming Davies is still racing.

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Anyway, there will indeed be a time, no matter when, the Ducati V4 will debut. Hope before 2020.

Iamapony said:

Apparently you don't actually read these threads or you would know of whom I speak. Since I have decide to buck the trend here, and be a gentleman, I will not mention names. You also don't appear to read my post where I specifically say that rider plus machine equals success. Once again, 2+2 = 4, not the 5 that you erroneously suggest.


The rules state that 125 units must be produced before the start of competition. And they have all year to produce 250 units. For Ducati, that shouldn't be an issue, even with a $39.9k machine. If history is any indication, they will have no problem selling 500+ exclusive machines. (I don't believe there is anything about a year prior to competition.) I wish I could find the exact quote from Ducati Kingdom, where they say that they are ready to roll for next year in WSBK

I think it will be great to have WSBK back to even size. I also think the Ducati will do great with the V4 - assuming Davies is still racing.

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I responded (in a gentlemanly fashion) to your erroneous assertion that people on this forum are ignoring the performance of the Ducati. Nothing more. Now you are muddying up the conversation with a lot of non-salient assertions that don't mean anything and do nothing to further your argument. I lurked on this forum for a long time before I ever posted here, and am well aware of what people do and don't pay attention to. So who exactly is ignoring the power of the Ducati??? Is it Voldemort and you can't speak his name?

Truly, no need to be walk on eggshells here. People here mostly have pretty thick skin and if you don't outright insult them, they (with a few notable exceptions) tend to be as courteous as the person they're debating.

Iamapony said:

Apparently you don't actually read these threads or you would know of whom I speak. Since I have decide to buck the trend here, and be a gentleman, I will not mention names. You also don't appear to read my post where I specifically say that rider plus machine equals success. Once again, 2+2 = 4, not the 5 that you erroneously suggest.


The rules state that 125 units must be produced before the start of competition. And they have all year to produce 250 units. For Ducati, that shouldn't be an issue, even with a $39.9k machine. If history is any indication, they will have no problem selling 500+ exclusive machines. (I don't believe there is anything about a year prior to competition.) I wish I could find the exact quote from Ducati Kingdom, where they say that they are ready to roll for next year in WSBK

I think it will be great to have WSBK back to even size. I also think the Ducati will do great with the V4 - assuming Davies is still racing.

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That's correct, there is no rule stating 1 year prior to competition -- I wasn't implying a rule, just evaluating the technical times. A bike has to be in production at least one year before entering WSBK because it needs to be tested first in lower profile races, and on that basis the real WSBK version will be developed.

Dr No said:

Perfect race from VR. Well deserved. Held it together.

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Actually his whole weekend was spot on. It's seems to me that he has very strong process, better than most (not just last weekend). It feels like all of his progressive objectives are focused on the only result that counts.

I know they all have that approach but I wonder if the younger guys are distracted by winning sessions.