Ant West

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 15 2007, 06:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dude, West complained because KTM ...... him over.

He had a chance to ride a factory bike and really sell himself ad a good prospect for other teams (if he wasn't happy at KTM), but he didn't show the right qualities or the riding ability to get further, gp racing is cruel and its a world he is struggling to survive in.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (phleg @ May 15 2007, 02:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's nice to see you're such a dedicated fan, not like the gloryhunters you see around so often these days. It's not a dig at anyone on the forums but it is true.

Glory hunters will always exist in any sport, i just leave them too it. After all they don't actually do any harm.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 15 2007, 10:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He had a chance to ride a factory bike and really sell himself ad a good prospect for other teams (if he wasn't happy at KTM), but he didn't show the right qualities or the riding ability to get further, gp racing is cruel and its a world he is struggling to survive in.
Look, I'm certainly not a fan of West. So its not my job to defend the ugly ......, but KTM is not blameless here. They ...... over West and Team Roberts. As far as I see it, they have a pattern of non-commitment. They get a rider all worked up then drop his ... for ......... What was West to do, just swallow it, look at Melandri (the guy you feel sorry for) He complained recently, should Honda drop him? Of course not, they deserve some of the heat when they .... up. I’m not gonna let KTM of the hook, they suck.

I think the KTM Roberts situation was rubbish, but i am not holding a grudge because the KTM squad is very well run, very committed and Harold Bartol is one of the most respected men in the paddock. They may not be faultless, but it is outrageous to claim they ruined West's chance because he failed to make himself look like a decent prospect for any serious teams. I think his skills represent his results and vice versa.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 15 2007, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. I think the KTM Roberts situation was rubbish, but i am not holding a grudge

2. because the KTM squad is very well run, very committed and Harold Bartol is one of the most respected men in the paddock.

3. They may not be faultless, but it is outrageous to claim they ruined West's chance because he failed to make himself look like a decent prospect for any serious teams. I think his skills represent his results and vice versa.
1. I'm assuming by saying its "rubbish" you mean that what they did by pulling the plug was a ...... thing to do. I agree.

2. "very well run" that's debatable. I don't care enough to debate it.

3. You refuse to see any major blame in companies/teams, you seem to prefer to put all the weight and hones on the rider, but I have read you mention machinery as an issue sometimes for a riders results (good or bad). That's rather inconsistent I think considering its not the rider responsible for the support they get, and all I need to know about what you think about what is or is not the responsibility of a company is your misguided opinion about the treatment Hayden got last year. So enough said on the subject. Besides, I really don't give a flying .... about Anthony West; I just think he got a raw deal. Ok, we disagree, not first time not last I guess. But at least you got your well-articulated opinion, and I appreciate that.

I am not trying to rest the results he got with KTM, nor his treatment by them as his responsibility. But he was on works team and in a larger than usual amount of limelight (for him). He needed to maximize that opportunity and he didn't. Even when results are poor, the people in the know who is working well, who has the right attitude, who has the talent and who makes a good prospect for a team in the future. Unfortunately (for him) West falls short.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antfan @ May 16 2007, 02:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wests result @ Monza shows that he clearly doesnt fall short, thats what you just dont get Tom. The Yamaha Germany bike is one of the best in the WSS field and Ant got a podium on it, at his first race, at an unknown track. All im saying is that give him the right bike in any other category and the results will come again. This i know for sure.

Although you cannon know anything for sure, i don't doubt that West can get good Supersport results and as impressive that is in the greater scheme of things, for a grand prix rider its pretty big step down (perhaps to where Ant belongs). To say that results would come in ANY other catagory with the right bike is unrealistic, i doubt he could do that in many other categories if any.

I don't want to be involved in an arguement but isn't Ant on a semi-factory bike yet he's not beating his times from last year?

I know it sounds as though I'm belittling him but I'm not trying to, I'm pointing out something I've seen.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antfan @ May 16 2007, 11:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How on earth can you say that!? When hes NEVER been given the chance? Start posting when you make some sense for gods sake..

Well there is a considerable amount of evidence racked up to suggest West isn't good enough to run at the front of the 2nd or 3rd (depending how you rate 250's) level of motorcycle racing. You on the other hand are using a handful of impressive results and a supersport podium to suggest that he is as good as 4 recent lower class world champions!! You have made a very large leap of faith, and make less sense than most.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 16 2007, 01:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Supersport results and as impressive that is in the greater scheme of things, for a grand prix rider its pretty big step down
There you go again, thinking the GP support classes are better and superior to everybody on the planet. Somehow you think the words "Grand Prix" must have some special magical power it seems. Did you know we have some former GP guys in the AMA? Oh, they don't get too much TV time, because most of them suck. I guess the magic of GP wares off quickly. I’d say, the support classes are about the same everywhere (GP, WSBK, AMA, etc.). Once the make the jump, then we get a real glimpse of what they are made of.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 17 2007, 10:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There you go again, thinking the GP support classes are better and superior to everybody on the planet.

Mate we are talking world supersports and 250cc grand prix. the difference is pretty big. Supersport bikes have treaded tires, and basically standard everything and significantly less set-up parameters. All of that coupled with the weaker riders makes it not an especially great series in the greater scheme of things. I know it is still a world championship and these guys are all good, but there is good and there is good. You know, the difference between scrapping for points and being on the podium.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 17 2007, 02:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Mate we are talking world supersports and 250cc grand prix.
Yes, I got that. And I agree with you Tom to a certain extent if we are talking machinery only. GP and Supersport are vastly different, yes. However, simply because GP bikes have more adjustability doesn’t translate into automatic rider superiority; one should also weigh the notion of rider talent needed to make a supersport bike work in relation to its lack of un-adjustability. In other words, supersport riders have to do more out of shear talent to make their bikes perform to their optimum. It kinda reminds me of John Hopkins. ...., you think Rossi has something to complain about regarding Ducati power, poor Hopkins kicked ... for years only to see half the field pass his ... on short straights. For years he has been on a clearly, inferior bike, and I think this has made him a better rider, because he has had to learn to compensate. But it sounds like you are also saying, that GP is vastly superior in terms of rider talent. My point is that I don't think they are vastly superior, in rider ability and talent. I do concede that the top riders in 250s are perhaps (but debatable) better than the top supersport riders at the moment. But we are talking about a few individuals. As a whole and on the average, I'm saying that the riders themselves are not vastly different, except say in weight. Are 250s more exciting, well that’s debatable too. Exciting is an illusive and ambiguous opinion. If you recall, some people thought last MotoGP season was “boring.” But exciting does not equate superiority, and though I think 250s and 125s are more exciting, I don’t think that their riders are necessarily superior to other support classes in top racing series.

No-one is saying the factory KTM ride qualifies as Ant's big chance are they? KTM stated that 2005 was development at race weekends. They only started in round 9, didnt finish 2 rounds because of engine failure, pulled out of Qatar because the bike was unsafe to ride. I don't even think they rode the remaining rounds.

Unfortunately for Ant he figured KTM would retain him to ride the bike the following year, they didn't so back to privateer land you go. The KTM was a pile of garbage in 2005 for everyone to see.

2003 was a great year for Ant finishing behind Elias, Poggiali, DePuniet, Rolfo. Unfortunately this isnt enough to secure a factory ride. He's no good for sponsors on the factory side in 250. He needs a good base to get a great ride. Going to Supersport next year (if its an option) would be a great move. If hes competitive than the possibility to move into Superbike a year or two later could be on the cards.

Kevin Curtain is 40, really fast, but I don't know how much longer he'll keep riding or the team will keep him on. Seeing how Ant reacted on Sunday, I think he would jump at the chance next year. If Ant is really any good than there is no reason why riding in World Superbikes couldn't lead to a MotoGP ride.

He needs to stop beating his head against the wall and move on!

Good thread. I have lots of thoughts to add - hopefully i can remember them.

Ktm and screwing. Well i'm a big Ktm fan after the (maybe over) loyalty they have shown to Mika Kallio and from that they eventually got a rider who deserved to be world champ and is now showing promis in 250s. I'm starting to dream of a Ktm 800 and Kallio being the main rider to bring it through. He'll get screwed by the time that happens tho apparently. Team robersts was unfortunate. As just mentioned Ktm for west was...

...not a fair judgement of his abilities due to it being a development bike.

I understand where tom gets his gp superiority idea because the difference to me is that the 125/250s are not support races but gps in their own right. However that doesn't mean supersport is a big step down in rider ability. I've started to watch on a par with superbikes (and superstock too as that's the best standard bike class in the world) and bar there being 2 sbk races it would be. Supersport is a world championship in...

...in it's own right and is by some seen as the pinnacle of achievements and a step up in class isn't there. It's the best level on a supersport bike in the world and i have no doubt the riders are as good as 250s. Obviously this year is an exceptional one for talent in the 250s so is easy to have your judgement clouded. Therefor west's ride at monza certainly was an excellent achievement and shows he certainly has some ability. Also i think the fact that there is this thread shows he certainly has...

...a lot of ability and it wouldn't
be wrong for him to have a chance on a factory bike. Just he's not
picked a good time to be around...Lollipop, dovi, bautista,
barbera, De angelis, luhti, Kallio, aoyamas, simon................



Racejumkie
Support classes in ama, Bsb, etc are definitely not on a level with
the world's (gp/wsbk) support classes - tho maybe i've
misunderstood your post.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Racejumkie @ May 18 2007, 01:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But it sounds like you are also saying, that GP is vastly superior in terms of rider talent. My point is that I don't think they are vastly superior, in rider ability and talent. I do concede that the top riders in 250s are perhaps (but debatable) better than the top supersport riders at the moment. But we are talking about a few individuals. As a whole and on the average, I'm saying that the riders themselves are not vastly different, except say in weight.

I think what is more debatable is the top riders in 250 against the top in world superbike, that is a much closer comparison of rider talent and ability. As a whole, on average, the supersport riders are about as good as 125 guys, of course the exceptions stand above that (Sofuoglu)

As i mentioned is exceptional talent
at top of 250s this year. But be careful what you say about the
supersport riders in general cause one is Mika Kallio's brother
Vesa!


Tho saying that...he did "fail" in gps (forget if it was 125 or 250s) on most privateer of the privateer bike... But could easily say that proves tom's point as he's getting points finishes is wss.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ May 18 2007, 09:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think what is more debatable is the top riders in 250 against the top in world superbike, that is a much closer comparison of rider talent and ability. As a whole, on average, the supersport riders are about as good as 125 guys, of course the exceptions stand above that (Sofuoglu)

I guess the big difference between the two series is the riders age and where they are in their develpment cycle. 250 have mainly young riders on their way up. SBK have lots of older riders, some of them on the slope downwards in their rding skills.

And I was quite impressed by Ant. Especially when he forgot that he was not riding a 250 and was braking as if he was riding one