It was later on in the race at turn 1. Herrin was on the inside and he sent Danny wide. It wasn't that big a deal b/c turn 1 has plenty of pavement.
AMA SBK - Round 10 - Barber Motorsports
Help Support MotoGP Forum:
It was later on in the race at turn 1. Herrin was on the inside and he sent Danny wide. It wasn't that big a deal b/c turn 1 has plenty of pavement.
Nobody is defending Eslick. Both Jumkie and I said that he made a really bad move in the hairpin before the red flag. We are telling other people to quit whining like ....... b/c the last race of the season got a little bit rough. Probation for both teams b/c they were acting like idiots all weekend. Move on and let Cardenas celebrate his first title.
jumkie just curious if you would be defending cardenas if it was him instead of eslick in this situation.... i know how much you like him...
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
jumkie just curious if you would be defending cardenas if it was him instead of eslick in this situation.... i know how much you like him...
[ First of all, guys, I must say this discussion is fun(nothing more) and I'm glad I have friends like you guys to shoot the breeze with (which is all this stuff really is), but it serves a very real purpose of creating and maintaining friendships. Why sound so melodramatic you ask? Well when I came home yesterday, I had to put out a personal little fire. I lost some sleep, but this gave me pause for reflection. At which point I realized how UNIMPORTANT these little racing incidents are in the overall perspective of our lives. Apart from trying to solve my little crisis, I also asked myself, why do I spend so much of my free time talking about this ........? The answer I came up with: Because its fun and relaxing for me to talk about racing with friends. That's it. I know the subjects here are not important, but hanging out here with friends is, and that's as good a hobby as any other. ]
Did you rewatch the race with my previous notes Frost?
In the final race, every contact (before Herrins crash) was initiated by Josh Herrin in turn 4. This is a FACT (watch the incidents again). I'll say it again, every contact in turn 4 was initiated/caused by Josh Herrin (NOT Danny Eslick). That INCLUDES the now infamous "brake check"--which in reality was a defensive look back to Herrin who had twice previously bumped Eslick on that very same turn. Even in this incident, Herrin bobbles to get as close to Eslick as possible, which is why Eslick looks back, because out of his peripheral, he sees Herrin approaching, closer and closer. Watch this incident again please.
Now the "punt' must be looked at in the light that Herrrin has attempted to bump Eslick at turn 4 several times up to this point. Herrin takes a different line to approach, this time much tighter. Eslick takes a wider line to approach, whereby giving him more drive through the corner. Herrin left a real crease and Eslick took the space. Before you go on any further, let me ask you, did you see the WSBK supersport race? If you want to see a torpedo, check out what Laverty does to Sofagulo. Laverty goes into a space where none exits. how do I know, because if you watch it, Laverty's front tire goes over the curbing because Sofagulo is so tight guarding the line. THIS IS NOT the case with Eslicks outside-inside pass on Herrin. Josh Herrin goes into that turn a bit hot, perhaps knowing that Eslick has beat him to that particular turn all race. Because he goes in a bit hot (keep in mind, he is tighter on his approach than he's been all race) this causes him to leave a crease as he begins to run wide. This is not unusual. Think about this for a second. When you come in extra tight into a turn, what is your likely exit trajectory? Answer: you go wide. The opposite is true if you approach a turn extra wide. Your exit will be tight. Herrin came in tight, Eslick countered entering wide. It follows then that Herrin's line would drift wide (considering his tight entry) and therefore leaving a real crease. Herrin took that space. Keep in mind this was with three laps to go and the championship was on the line.
The only kink in my armor of explanation above is you comparing it to Rossi's move on Gibers in the infamous Jerez race. I wholeheartly agree with you that the move at Jerez is how you describe it. So my only defense in the Eslick/Herrin incident is to say, the wet conditions made this contact look much worse than it really was, the reduced traction resulted in Herrins crash.
In regards to your question, would I defend it had it been Cardenas. You know I don't have that level of impartiality brotha. I suppose I could lie and say, yeah, I would think the same, but everybody would call ........, and rightly so.
i guess we are a bunch of .......! it was most definately entertaining as i was yellin at the tv! but the problem i have is that eslick plainly cared less about trying to win the championship & just wanted stuff up herrin. this will bode well for next season if the intensity of this rivalry stays the same & they are both still in this class.
jumkie just curious if you would be defending cardenas if it was him instead of eslick in this situation.... i know how much you like him...
I don't mind if Eslick and Herrin have a personal disdain for one another, but I personally hope AMA threads don't degenerate into Boppers vs. Haydenettes vs. Stoners vs. Lorenzonistos. I guess I could live with it if the rivalry rebuilt the AMA.
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
- Messages
- 4,934
- Location
- unda cheese
I took Jumkie up on his offer to rewatch the race and see if I was wrong. What I saw was just as he described with the execption of "the punt." Herrin was clearly the instigator in the first 3 incidents. As they are going around the turn he is leaning into eslick. In one incident he even extends his knee out further in anticapation of the contact. It looks very much like he is trying to intimidate Eslick. Now the punt was clearly Eslick bullying his way through a line that was not there. As I've been taught(correct me if I'm wrong) that if you are shown a wheel and do not concede the line than whatever consequences occur are your fault. What I mean by showing a wheel is if the bike behind you gets their front wheel at the midpoint of your bike (which would approximatelly be where your elbow is or where you can see them out of your periphery) before the apex of the turn than you must concede the line or suffer the consequences. With Danny's outside to inside move, he saw a crease but it was way after the apex and he never showed a wheel. I don't believe Herrin could even have seen Eslick in his periphery in order to back down. For the record if Eslick did show a wheel I doubt Herrin would have conceded the line with possibly the same result. I think Eslick saw daylight and bullied his way through knowing there would be contact. I don't like the move but I understand that after Josh initiated contact multiple times he was probabaly striking back. Notice Herrins non reaction after he goes down. If he knew that Eslick punted him for no reason whatsoever his hands would have been up in the air in exasperation.
I still didn't like the punt regardless of whether he deserved it or not. This is not nascrap and it wasn't the right thing to do.(disclaimer: if Nicky Hayden ever does the same move to GayAngelis or Pedrosa I will amend this statement)
I'm going to have to watch race 1 again to review the contact. I still believe the AMA should have pulled these 2 aside after race 1 and set them straight so that this would never have happenned.
I still didn't like the punt regardless of whether he deserved it or not. This is not nascrap and it wasn't the right thing to do.(disclaimer: if Nicky Hayden ever does the same move to GayAngelis or Pedrosa I will amend this statement)
I'm going to have to watch race 1 again to review the contact. I still believe the AMA should have pulled these 2 aside after race 1 and set them straight so that this would never have happenned.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
I wish I could watch race 1 again, but crap I accidently deleted it thanks to Speed's mis-label. And honestly, I think I remember more bonsai moves from Eslick, but still I would like to rewatch.
The "punt" is for sure a tough to call move and because of the contact-crash will be deemed a "dirty" move. Frosty nailed me on asking how I would perceive it if it was Cardenas. Hahaha. .... me.
Johnny, I'll tell you what bothers me most about the punt, it cheated us from seeing a three lap shoot out. After the punt, Eslick lost too much ground to Cardicknas. Eslick tried to push and almost highsided. Can you imagine the last lap last turn? We might have seen a three bike pile up.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2007
- Messages
- 10,518
- Location
- Tennessee
Here is one thing for sure, whoever you take sides with, we are still talking about a ....... AMA race 4 days later. Usually, the discussion is over after 4 hours and 15 responses. This thread passed the WSBK thread and there was a world champion crowned in that race. If DMG reads bike boards, they might just pay Eslick and Herrin to alternate taking each other out
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 24,726
- Location
- Your Mom's House
Here is one thing for sure, whoever you take sides with, we are still talking about a ....... AMA race 4 days later. Usually, the discussion is over after 4 hours and 15 responses. This thread passed the WSBK thread and there was a world champion crowned in that race. If DMG reads bike boards, they might just pay Eslick and Herrin to alternate taking each other out
But yes, what a season finale! My only regret is that Cardicknas was GIFTED the title. (Yeah yeah, I hate, sue me.) I would have been much more happy if either Herrin or Eslick ended on top.
Good point. You know, I still cringe when I see the letters: "DMG". Can we just call it AMA? Even though the class is shamelessly called "Daytona SportBike".
But yes, what a season finale! My only regret is that Cardicknas was GIFTED the title. (Yeah yeah, I hate, sue me.) I would have been much more happy if either Herrin or Eslick ended on top.
not sure if you are kidding.....Cardenas had the points lead going into the last race so I dont know how it was a gift. Cardenas and Herrin were the ones that could make positions back up quickly all race. Maybe you are saying Cardenas was handed the title because his "buddy" Eslick took out the chance for Herrin to win....
Now a gifted title was for Eslick in 2009....on a big ... bike and Cardenas getting injured missing the last 3 races. Cardenas crashed all season long and was still in front in points while Eslick stayed on 2 wheels and could still not run away with a points lead.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2007
- Messages
- 10,518
- Location
- Tennessee
not sure if you are kidding.....Cardenas had the points lead going into the last race so I dont know how it was a gift. Cardenas and Herrin were the ones that could make positions back up quickly all race. Maybe you are saying Cardenas was handed the title because his "buddy" Eslick took out the chance for Herrin to win....
Now a gifted title was for Eslick in 2009....on a big ... bike and Cardenas getting injured missing the last 3 races. Cardenas crashed all season long and was still in front in points while Eslick stayed on 2 wheels and could still not run away with a points lead.
He is kidding, the right guy won the title. He was riding behind the 8 ball all year after scoring zero points at Daytona. He won the most races by far and is a worthy champion. I think Jum still has a hard on for Cardenas after he almost killed Hayden.I think the kid has made great strides in his race craft in the last year. He has learned that a 3rd place finish is not the end of the world. He suffered with Bubba Stewart syndrome there for a while, where he thought, not only do i have to win every race, i have to crush the competition by 10 seconds.
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
- Messages
- 4,934
- Location
- unda cheese
I remember laughing and texting jumkie LOL after Cardenas crashed at turn 2 first lap at Daytona.I thought here he goes again.
I like how Lex put it, he hasn't tried to murder anyone for 2 years so we should give him a chance.
I havn't checked the stats but I heard Eslick had no DNF's and I know Cardenas and Herrin did but I'm not sure how many. Danny was spotted at least 1 race and he still couldn't pull it out. Maybe that was the source of all his frustration. How's he going to prove he was worthy of last years title when he couldn't win one when given that opportunity.
I like how Lex put it, he hasn't tried to murder anyone for 2 years so we should give him a chance.
I havn't checked the stats but I heard Eslick had no DNF's and I know Cardenas and Herrin did but I'm not sure how many. Danny was spotted at least 1 race and he still couldn't pull it out. Maybe that was the source of all his frustration. How's he going to prove he was worthy of last years title when he couldn't win one when given that opportunity.
It's also the difference between the new scoring system and the old scoring system. Critics of the old system have said that it rewarded cruisin' caretakers b/c the points went all the way to 30th. They were trying to reward the privateers and small teams with points, but the system actually encouraged the front runners to cruise on a bad set up and take a top 10 finish if things weren't working out. It was also somewhat common to see a privateer score top tens all season, but finish in the top 5 for the championship.
I haven't done the math, but it would be interesting to see who would have taken the championship under the old system.
They've said that for the last 15-20 years it's been nearly impossible to win an AMA title with a DNF, especially in the classes that ran just 1 race per event. Interestingly enough, almost no one who's come out of the AMA since then has been a crasher.
Okay I did the math (somebody double check me though) and the winner under the old points system is............................ drumroll
1. Danny Eslick - 544
2. Martin Cardenas - 523
3. Josh Herrin - 513
I've always been partial to the old system, but it's kind of hard to pay points down to 30th when 30 entrants rarely show up for SBK events.
1. Danny Eslick - 544
2. Martin Cardenas - 523
3. Josh Herrin - 513
I've always been partial to the old system, but it's kind of hard to pay points down to 30th when 30 entrants rarely show up for SBK events.
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
- Messages
- 4,934
- Location
- unda cheese
Lex is feeling mathy today
Interesting way of looking at it. Not as close as you would think . Although I wouldn't say Eslick would have been the champ if it was the old system. Just looking at the stats you take the human element out of the equation. If Cardenas or Herrin were down I'm sure they would have made a push to make up points that could have resulted in a better or worse finish.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2007
- Messages
- 10,518
- Location
- Tennessee
Lex is feeling mathy today
Interesting way of looking at it. Not as close as you would think . Although I wouldn't say Eslick would have been the champ if it was the old system. Just looking at the stats you take the human element out of the equation. If Cardenas or Herrin were down I'm sure they would have made a push to make up points that could have resulted in a better or worse finish.
Excellent point. Many variables could and would come into play. Looking back, Herrin threw the championship away at Mid Ohio. He had a nice points lead and under virtually no pressure from behind, he went in way to deep at the end of the back straight, obviously thinking someone was there, and tossed it. Silly Silly mistake. But then again, if that had not happened, im sure Eslick would have dumped him somewhere else
I'm pretty late to the chatter here (I've been out for 2 weeks, took a while to catch up on the racing), but I must say, damn the AMA was good this year. When was the last time it created this much talk? Ok so the DMG antics created a lot of talk, but this year its been about the racing, where it should be.
Eslick... what is there to say that you guys haven't already. The guy operates on emotion, it's why he can be a very likable guy when he is winning and an emotional brat when he gets fired up. Maybe he will mature, maybe not. Either way I hope to see him back next year, but this time racing with a more level head.
Cardenas, another like him or not guy, but his banzai moves were to a minimum this year, imho. One things for sure, he showed he was the best in class this year. Congrats to his championship.
Hayes. Very happy for his championship, it was certainly well earned. He rode clean and smart all year and he's one of the coolest cats in the paddock. The battles between him and T. Hayden were awesome. I hope to see both back next year battling it out again for the championship.
Looking forward to next year already. AMA returns to Miller and will be racing the WSBK weekend!
Eslick... what is there to say that you guys haven't already. The guy operates on emotion, it's why he can be a very likable guy when he is winning and an emotional brat when he gets fired up. Maybe he will mature, maybe not. Either way I hope to see him back next year, but this time racing with a more level head.
Cardenas, another like him or not guy, but his banzai moves were to a minimum this year, imho. One things for sure, he showed he was the best in class this year. Congrats to his championship.
Hayes. Very happy for his championship, it was certainly well earned. He rode clean and smart all year and he's one of the coolest cats in the paddock. The battles between him and T. Hayden were awesome. I hope to see both back next year battling it out again for the championship.
Looking forward to next year already. AMA returns to Miller and will be racing the WSBK weekend!
