AMA/DMG Adds 15 of the 20 lbs back on the Buell

Alright, we are seeing some transparency.

It is unfortunate it took them this long to make a list, but I hope that the Aprilia and Ducati allowances will help move them closer to the front. Davies is too good to be stuck in the midpack melee.

There is more

They allowed the 600's to deduct 5 lbs to 360. 20 lb swing.It must suck to get caught trying to manipulate a racing series and expect the fans to be so ....... stupid that they cant see thru the 15 there and five here for the total of 20 lbs that the fans have been screaming about. I guess it plays better in the media this way.When this class was first thought up,or puked up,the initial rules were going to be 3lbs to every HP with a 120 hp limit for the 600's to be tested on a dyno after each race. Or you could go up to 140 HP but had to weigh 420 lbs. Now we have the Buell pushing an estimated 145 hp and gets to weigh in at 380. I predict the Buell will continue to do well because it is my belief that they have been sandbagging in anticipation of this. This whole thing is starting to smell like a well orchestrated deal between DMG and Buell. Its like the oil companies, if gas is 2.50 a gallon and they want to raise it to 3.00 a gallon,they pop it up to 3.50.Everybody goes beserk and they slowly bring it down to 3.00 and everybody is happy again. You just got raised .50 cents a gallon and your happy. The Buell would be at 435lbs with DMG'g initial rule proposal ,they lower it to 365,everybody goes beserk,they raise it to 380 and all is well except for the fact that they are still 55 lbs under where they should be.

At least it's a step in the right direction. It's good to know the fans have some impact on the ....... rulings from DMG. I gotta say - when watching post race interviews - that underneath all that naive country bumpkin cheeriness - I was sensing a degree of nervous guilt when Pegram was answering questions. Has anyone noticed that during the interviews and at other times, long after the race was finished - Pegram continued to wear his gloves? A little weird no? Like maybe his hands were shaking from bad nerves due to a guilty conscience - like maybe he's got a DMG logo stigmata burnt into the palms of his hands from handling his paychecks?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Apr 14 2009, 08:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>At least it's a step in the right direction. It's good to know the fans have some impact on the ....... rulings from DMG. I gotta say - when watching post race interviews - that underneath all that naive country bumpkin cheeriness - I was sensing a degree of nervous guilt when Pegram was answering questions. Has anyone noticed that during the interviews and at other times, long after the race was finished - Pegram continued to wear his gloves? A little weird no? Like maybe his hands were shaking from bad nerves due to a guilty conscience - like maybe he's got a DMG logo stigmata burnt into the palms of his hands from handling his paychecks?
Are you talking about Eslick on the Buell or Pegram on the Ducati.Yea, the glove thing is weird,i havnt seen it but it has been topic of conversation on a few boards i visit. The DMG stigmata quote made me spit coffee thru my nose,thanks a lot

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 14 2009, 08:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are you talking about Eslick on the Buell or Pegram on the Ducati.Yea, the glove thing is weird,i havnt seen it but it has been topic of conversation on a few boards i visit. The DMG stigmata quote made me spit coffee thru my nose,thanks a lot


Oops - my bad. Meant E-slick.

This is where it goes from the Grand Am to NASCAR. Manufactures complain that another one has an advantage, so they make a concession. Now that manufacture says someone else has an advantage, and get a concession.

I was waiting for this. Soon we will end up with cookie cutter bikes with engine packages.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 13 2009, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There is more

They allowed the 600's to deduct 5 lbs to 360. 20 lb swing.It must suck to get caught trying to manipulate a racing series and expect the fans to be so ....... stupid that they cant see thru the 15 there and five here for the total of 20 lbs that the fans have been screaming about. I guess it plays better in the media this way.When this class was first thought up,or puked up,the initial rules were going to be 3lbs to every HP with a 120 hp limit for the 600's to be tested on a dyno after each race. Or you could go up to 140 HP but had to weigh 420 lbs. Now we have the Buell pushing an estimated 145 hp and gets to weigh in at 380. I predict the Buell will continue to do well because it is my belief that they have been sandbagging in anticipation of this. This whole thing is starting to smell like a well orchestrated deal between DMG and Buell. Its like the oil companies, if gas is 2.50 a gallon and they want to raise it to 3.00 a gallon,they pop it up to 3.50.Everybody goes beserk and they slowly bring it down to 3.00 and everybody is happy again. You just got raised .50 cents a gallon and your happy. The Buell would be at 435lbs with DMG'g initial rule proposal ,they lower it to 365,everybody goes beserk,they raise it to 380 and all is well except for the fact that they are still 55 lbs under where they should be.

One of the best post you have had on here Povol.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Apr 14 2009, 05:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Has anyone noticed that during the interviews and at other times, long after the race was finished - Pegram continued to wear his gloves? A little weird no? Like maybe his hands were shaking from bad nerves due to a guilty conscience - like maybe he's got a DMG logo stigmata burnt into the palms of his hands from handling his paychecks?

The riders leave them on sometimes for sponsors. Also, I think he had some bandages fro Fontana's crash and he may have been protecting the hand still. My guess.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 13 2009, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There is more

They allowed the 600's to deduct 5 lbs to 360. 20 lb swing.It must suck to get caught trying to manipulate a racing series and expect the fans to be so ....... stupid that they cant see thru the 15 there and five here for the total of 20 lbs that the fans have been screaming about. I guess it plays better in the media this way.When this class was first thought up,or puked up,the initial rules were going to be 3lbs to every HP with a 120 hp limit for the 600's to be tested on a dyno after each race. Or you could go up to 140 HP but had to weigh 420 lbs. Now we have the Buell pushing an estimated 145 hp and gets to weigh in at 380. I predict the Buell will continue to do well because it is my belief that they have been sandbagging in anticipation of this. This whole thing is starting to smell like a well orchestrated deal between DMG and Buell. Its like the oil companies, if gas is 2.50 a gallon and they want to raise it to 3.00 a gallon,they pop it up to 3.50.Everybody goes beserk and they slowly bring it down to 3.00 and everybody is happy again. You just got raised .50 cents a gallon and your happy. The Buell would be at 435lbs with DMG'g initial rule proposal ,they lower it to 365,everybody goes beserk,they raise it to 380 and all is well except for the fact that they are still 55 lbs under where they should be.

The original rules package was good b/c it was straight forward. I'm sure a horsepower to weight ratio would have been very difficult to police, but in the end the Japanese manufacturers vetoed the arrangement. The 600cc runners thought it would be impossible to keep up with Buell unless they spent tens of thousands on engine modifications.

I think they may have overestimated Buell though. If Buell had competed under the old rules they would have been running a rev-limited version of the 1125R. Twins usually have wide gearing and I think Buell would have suffered greatly from reducing the 1125R's revs. I'm sure they could have lobbied for a different sprocket set, but they still would have been at a disadvantage vs. the I-4s.

The old rules were not shot down to advance Buell's cause. The old rules were shot down b/c the manufacturers were certain Buell would run off with the class.

I think there is a good chance that Edmondson is allowing Buell to beat up on the Japanese manufacturers in order to manipulate fans and manufacturers into ratifying his horsepower limited class.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 14 2009, 11:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The original rules package was good b/c it was straight forward. I'm sure a horsepower to weight ratio would have been very difficult to police, but in the end the Japanese manufacturers vetoed the arrangement. The 600cc runners thought it would be impossible to keep up with Buell unless they spent tens of thousands on engine modifications.

I think they may have overestimated Buell though. If Buell had competed under the old rules they would have been running a rev-limited version of the 1125R. Twins usually have wide gearing and I think Buell would have suffered greatly from reducing the 1125R's revs. I'm sure they could have lobbied for a different sprocket set, but they still would have been at a disadvantage vs. the I-4s.

The old rules were not shot down to advance Buell's cause. The old rules were shot down b/c the manufacturers were certain Buell would run off with the class.

I think there is a good chance that Edmondson is allowing Buell to beat up on the Japanese manufacturers in order to manipulate fans and manufacturers into ratifying his horsepower limited class.

And that is manipulating a competition and is the reason this firestorm is licking at his ....Real race fans will not stand for inequities when it comes to fairness and competition.Thats where Roger has ...... up.Bike racing fans are not like the mindless robots that make up about 90% of Nascars fan base. All they [ Nascar fans] want is to be entertained and have close finishes. Bike racing fans understand and accept the fact that a rider or a bike ,or a bike a rider and a team are just better.
Tough ....,get better or get buried. This whole concept of DSB does nothing but create controversy and allows for rules manipulation. How many competition bulletins has there been alrerady this year allowing major changes to bikes. It reeks of the way Nascar used to be before the COT but how can you have a BOT when there are so many different concepts and configurations involved. Last year when the first rule propoasl was made, I said this would happen.If you read the rules in there entirity
and comprehended what was actully being said,it was full of information that pointed to a Harley/Buell
entrant that was going to be given special considerations. Even the approved equipment list is bogus.Buell has Buell racing as their equipment provider whereas everyone else has to choose from aftermarket vendors. You dont see HRC as a provider for the Honda's or YEC for Yamaha etc: Buell is being prototyped as it goes and the 600's are hamstrung to basically stock. The Buell does not belong in this class

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 15 2009, 07:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And that is manipulating a competition and is the reason this firestorm is licking at his ....Real race fans will not stand for inequities when it comes to fairness and competition.Thats where Roger has ...... up.Bike racing fans are not like the mindless robots that make up about 90% of Nascars fan base. All they [ Nascar fans] want is to be entertained and have close finishes. Bike racing fans understand and accept the fact that a rider or a bike ,or a bike a rider and a team are just better.
Tough ....,get better or get buried. This whole concept of DSB does nothing but create controversy and allows for rules manipulation. How many competition bulletins has there been alrerady this year allowing major changes to bikes. It reeks of the way Nascar used to be before the COT but how can you have a BOT when there are so many different concepts and configurations involved. Last year when the first rule propoasl was made, I said this would happen.If you read the rules in there entirity
and comprehended what was actully being said,it was full of information that pointed to a Harley/Buell
entrant that was going to be given special considerations. Even the approved equipment list is bogus.Buell has Buell racing as their equipment provider whereas everyone else has to choose from aftermarket vendors. You dont see HRC as a provider for the Honda's or YEC for Yamaha etc: Buell is being prototyped as it goes and the 600's are hamstrung to basically stock. The Buell does not belong in this class

He's manipulating the sport with a rules package he never wanted.

Like you said, the original rules package was a power-to-weight class. I think there were still a few special allowance clauses, but the class was supposed to have relatively transparent rules.

DSB has no transparency under the new rules package. Edmondson is most concerned with making Ducati, Aprilia, BMW, Triumph, and Buell competitive so they will bring more manufacturer support and different kinds of sponsors/fans. Unfortunately, without the power-to-weight rules, he's stuck manipulating engine revs, minimum weight, and after-market parts.

DSB is important because it gives smaller manufacturers a place to develop sportsbikes that aren't required to fit the traditional 600cc mold. When you think about it, DSB is one of the only series in the world that allows a wide variety of equipment. It's success is important for motorcycling, even if the racing isn't perfect.

As motorcycling consumers, we need choices.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 16 2009, 10:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He's manipulating the sport with a rules package he never wanted.

Like you said, the original rules package was a power-to-weight class. I think there were still a few special allowance clauses, but the class was supposed to have relatively transparent rules.

DSB has no transparency under the new rules package. Edmondson is most concerned with making Ducati, Aprilia, BMW, Triumph, and Buell competitive so they will bring more manufacturer support and different kinds of sponsors/fans. Unfortunately, without the power-to-weight rules, he's stuck manipulating engine revs, minimum weight, and after-market parts.

DSB is important because it gives smaller manufacturers a place to develop sportsbikes that aren't required to fit the traditional 600cc mold. When you think about it, DSB is one of the only series in the world that allows a wide variety of equipment. It's success is important for motorcycling, even if the racing isn't perfect.

As motorcycling consumers, we need choices.

What in the world does DMG's success have to do with consumers choices when they go to purchase a motorcycle. Buell,Aprilia,BMW etc were around way before this abortion of a series was dreamed up. Its not like their future is based on what happens to DMG/DSB. The original rules were ckoke full of wording that would benefit Buell,nothing has changed there.The rules would have been altered in their behalf regardless of which set was accepted,it was written in.Here is what looks so fishy. Buell dominates Fontana and afterward,RE himself, and one of his lackeys come out in seperate press releases defending Buell with those bogus ... lap charts about how they didnt have the fastest lap and how they didnt win pole blah blah blah.The fans that know racing chewed that .... up and spit it back in their faces and called foul. DMG , Eslick and Buell continued their defense thru Road Atlanta using the close finish as proof that the Buell didnt have a performance advantage. It was attributed to the unworldly talents of Danny Eslick,the kid who for years has been a decent rider and even this year was being handed his head in some club racing when he wasnt dominating AMA/DMG. Now,out of the blue,after defending Buell like a mother Crocodile,we have a rules change.No press release explaining why,just a cryptic competition bulletin.Now a week has gone by and still not one word as to why,after defending Buell to the hilt,why did they make a rules change.Was there mutiny in the paddock? did the heat get turned up so high by the real fans that they had no chioce. Did they look at the sparse crowd at Road Atlanta and decide that .... it, Buell isnt worth losing everything,we are not drawing the Harley crowd anyway. Somebody needs to say something,even if it a lie,like,we dynoed the bikes and to our suprise the the Buell was pushing 25 more HP than the 600's. The fans already know that,RE knows it but the silence is deafening

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 17 2009, 06:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What in the world does DMG's success have to do with consumers choices when they go to purchase a motorcycle.

That's what DSB is all about. The series is a development bed for sports motorcycles that don't fit the traditional 600cc mold. The 600cc machines are the "control" bikes. The class was definitely designed with Buell in mind, but it will end up benefiting many manufacturers.

Plenty of companies have the ability to produce sports bikes but many don't have the engineering background to produce 4-stroke machines for displacement-limited classes. The Japanese set out to conquer racing by building 4 cylinder bikes that were designed specifically for displacement classes. They've been hugely successful.

Other motorcycle manufacturers can't compete under displacement rules because the Japanese have a 20-30 years head start, and as I've tried to say on numerous occasions, 4 cylinder bikes are more expensive to produce. Triples, twins, and singles all make cheaper horsepower but they don't show well in displacement-limited venues.

Don't try to judge the racing in DSB based upon the rules package. DMG are simply trying to gather a wide variety of relatively cheap racing machines that lap within a few tenths of one another. The racing in DSB has actually been quite good, though not as good as the old SS class, imo.

In this day and age, if you manufacture sportsbikes, you must race them if you plan to stay in business. Small manufacturers can race almost anything they want in DSB and as a result DSB has garnered scorn from the 600cc crowd. I'm secretly hoping Norton will show up with some rotary machines at some point.

Hopefully, DSB will grow stronger and sponsorship will continue to rise. If DSB teams have fatter pockets they can raise engine tuning in the class so the 600s can be more like FX bikes. With some luck, the manufacturers will pledge support in DSB so Edmondson can bring back the old SS class. Buell's unfair wins are much more palatable if the 600s can rack up wins in their own Supersport class.

Povol, good posts. But please hit enter after every 3-4 sentences!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mr. Shupe @ Apr 18 2009, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Povol, good posts. But please hit enter after every 3-4 sentences!

Then you get accused of being a post count whore. You just cant win.

Or are you suggesting i use paragraphs?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Apr 18 2009, 03:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Then you get accused of being a post count whore. You just cant win.

Or are you suggesting i use paragraphs?

Yes, paragraphs.

Did anyone watch DSB Race 1 at Road Atlanta?

Really good racing, imo.

I'm going to go out on a limb: Eslick had 15lbs extra on the bike at Road Atlanta during Race 1. Greg White talked about how Buell decided to run their B bike this weekend but the B bike had substandard POS front forks.

I think "B" bike is code for the bike that actually fits the DSB rules , although, it sounds like the B bike may have gotten the special front race suspension.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 21 2009, 06:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Did anyone watch DSB Race 1 at Road Atlanta?

Really good racing, imo.

I'm going to go out on a limb: Eslick had 15lbs extra on the bike at Road Atlanta during Race 1. Greg White talked about how Buell decided to run their B bike this weekend but the B bike had substandard POS front forks.

I think "B" bike is code for the bike that actually fits the DSB rules , although, it sounds like the B bike may have gotten the special front race suspension.

Yep I just watched it yesterday. Entertaining race once the safety car came out, at Zemke's expense. I notice the rolling start used the old "dangerous" turn, but only for the start. Buell definitely had some serious grunt to pass on the outside coming down the hill on the last turn, otherwise looked fairly matched with the Honda, Suzuki, and Aprilia, Kawasucki and Yamaha. I think if Roger Lee had one more lap he could have taken the win. Credit to Cardenas, he was definitely fast and looked like he was cleanly passing, much to Jumkie's dismay I'm sure, since he is such a Cardenas fan. j/k

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bootsakah @ Apr 21 2009, 01:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yep I just watched it yesterday. Entertaining race once the safety car came out, at Zemke's expense. I notice the rolling start used the old "dangerous" turn, but only for the start. Buell definitely had some serious grunt to pass on the outside coming down the hill on the last turn, otherwise looked fairly matched with the Honda, Suzuki, and Aprilia, Kawasucki and Yamaha. I think if Roger Lee had one more lap he could have taken the win. Credit to Cardenas, he was definitely fast and looked like he was cleanly passing, much to Jumkie's dismay I'm sure, since he is such a Cardenas fan. j/k
I'm not so sure his passes were that clean, check out how out of shape he was a few times.

Anyway, I wasn't sold. The Buell was still blasting past on the straight while struggling on the tight turns. The safety car comes out and Zemke's lead evaporates. Roger Lee was on Carnage's ... when the red flag came out gifting the win. WWF has some cool fight sequences, I guess that's what makes it "entertaining". Can somebody please explain why they don't just run the remaining laps under green?