WSBK Considering drastically lower Fuel Limits

Jumkie said:

The ebb and flow of WSBK vs MotoGP. Nice consideration WSBK to attempt suicide to keep up with GP.

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Jumkie said:

Its crazy. What are these dudes thinking? Good point Pov, that is we like them cuz they are NOT GP.

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Pigeon said:

WSBK Considering Fuel Limits - Following MotoGP Down The Road To Perdition

Submitted by David Emmett on Fri, 2010-09-10 13:35. One of the hottest topics of debate among motorcycle racing fans around the world is the difference between the racing in MotoGP and World Superbikes. Where WSBK features regular fairing-bashing action and plenty of passing throughout the race, the racing in MotoGP has been entirely sterile, the focus more on being inch-perfect and preserving tires and fuel all the way to the line. One of the main factors explaining the difference in racing between the two series has always been the fuel allowance, with MotoGP restricted to just 21 liters for races of around 120 km, while World Superbike machines have a generous 24 liters of fuel to last them for between 10 and 20 km less, the average WSBK race being around 105 kilometers.



So it will deeply disturb WSBK fans to learn that the Superbike Commission - the WSBK series governing body - is serious considering the introduction of drastically lower fuel limits, according to the Italian magazine Motosprint. The proposal, put forward by Honda, Suzuki and Ducati, is aimed at reducing power and as a result, reducing the costs involved in the series. The main objection has come from BMW, who oppose the plan because their reliance on a proprietary electronics system means they would have to develop the fuel-saving algorithms completely from scratch. The rest of the field, using the ubiquitous Magneti Marelli electronics packages, will have a lot of existing data and programming to provide a starting point.



BMW's objections highlight exactly what the problem is with this suggestion. If there is one lesson to be drawn from MotoGP, it is that the introduction of tight fuel limits - along with the reduction in capacity - have increased the importance of electronics exponentially, thereby multiplying the costs involved. ECUs and engine management systems programmers have seen their stock rise, and more money is being focused on the electronics and the staff needed to program and manage them.



So important have electronic systems become that Honda has even taken to poaching staff away from other manufacturers. A strategy which has proved to be successful, as the fortunes of the Repsol Honda team have proved since the arrival of Andrea Zugna and Cristian Battaglia, and both Dani Pedrosa and Andrea Dovizioso have praised the progress booked as a result.



Fortunately, an alternative proposal has also been made, according to Motosprint. The introduction of a hard rev limit is also under consideration, as an alternative method for controlling horsepower. This suggestions also follows MotoGP's lead, though the Grand Prix Commission did not go so far as to propose a fixed limit, instead choosing to limit bore size, using physics to impose a rev limit through a maximum mean piston velocity.



If radical fuel limits are introduced in World Superbikes, the series could ironically become a more suitable feeder series for MotoGP. With greater emphasis on corner speed and fuel conservation, and less on backing the bike up and using surplus fuel to fire the bike out of a corner, World Superbikes could become a lot more like MotoGP than it has ever been in its existence. But if it does, the WSBK series could lose the hardcore fan base it has earned over the years for the excitement of its racing.



http://motomatters.com/news/2010/09/10/wsbk_considering_fuel_limits_following_m.html





is there any other bike sport on TV instead of WSBK.MOTOGP .... ?

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Pigeon said:

So it will deeply disturb WSBK fans to learn that the Superbike Commission - the WSBK series governing body - is serious considering the introduction of drastically lower fuel limits, according to the Italian magazine Motosprint. The proposal, put forward by Honda, Suzuki and Ducati, is aimed at reducing power and as a result, reducing the costs involved in the series. The main objection has come from BMW, who oppose the plan because their reliance on a proprietary electronics system means they would have to develop the fuel-saving algorithms completely from scratch. The rest of the field, using the ubiquitous Magneti Marelli electronics packages, will have a lot of existing data and programming to provide a starting point.



BMW's objections highlight exactly what the problem is with this suggestion. If there is one lesson to be drawn from MotoGP, it is that the introduction of tight fuel limits - along with the reduction in capacity - have increased the importance of electronics exponentially, thereby multiplying the costs involved. ECUs and engine management systems programmers have seen their stock rise, and more money is being focused on the electronics and the staff needed to program and manage them.



So important have electronic systems become that Honda has even taken to poaching staff away from other manufacturers. A strategy which has proved to be successful, as the fortunes of the Repsol Honda team have proved since the arrival of Andrea Zugna and Cristian Battaglia, and both Dani Pedrosa and Andrea Dovizioso have praised the progress booked as a result.

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mylexicon said:

If you'll just accept that the sport is rev limited and that the rev limit is supposed to increase year on year (that part is just a guess), this will make sense. The MSMA are intentionally trying to reduce power. The rev limit is what they are really after, but they can't just drop the rev limit b/c people will start asking questions. The fuel reduction is either designed to disguise a drop in revs or the fuel limits are attempting to force the Flamminis to agree to a drop in revs.

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povol said:

You beat anything ive ever seen. Its not disguised as anything. It said to reduce power, which means reduce revs. Thats some disguise.

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mylexicon said:

If you'll just accept that the sport is rev limited and that the rev limit is supposed to increase year on year (that part is just a guess), this will make sense. The MSMA are intentionally trying to reduce power. The rev limit is what they are really after, but they can't just drop the rev limit b/c people will start asking questions. The fuel reduction is either designed to disguise a drop in revs or the fuel limits are attempting to force the Flamminis to agree to a drop in revs.

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Kropotkin said:

WSBK is not rev limited. Everyone I have asked (and there's been a few) have dismissed that idea out of hand. One or two people have said that the Japanese manufacturers may have a tacit agreement not to pursue an all-out horsepower war in WSBK, but nobody believes there's a rev limit. If that tacit agreement existed, then it's been torn up already, as Aprilia completely ..... the concept, then wiped its .... on the curtains.



They are talking about the introduction of a rev limit as an alternative to fuel limits, and the rev limit is much more likely to pass. The fact that BSB EVO uses a homologated rev limit is neither here nor there, it's about as relevant as the fact that MotoGP uses Bridgestone slicks.

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mylexicon said:

Povol, if revs are controlled by homologation, then changing the size of the fuel tank up or down has no effect on anything. They are trying to disguise the method of reducing power (rev limit). They have to come clean about the reduction in power b/c it would be too obvious. If they shed 800rpm-1500rpm everyone and their mother would notice so they have to come clean with their intentions to reduce power.



Suzuki would certainly never go for this b/c the fuel limited formula has ruined their brand, and Honda would never go for it either b/c positive valve actuation like desmo is more efficient than springs. The MSMA can't even sell their bikes at the current ridiculous prices they charge, do you think they want to start adding fuel saving equipment that no one wants to pay for? Do you think anyone gives a damn if their Blade gets 35mpg vs. 37mpg? No! That's why this entire thing is a farce to cover up the rev limit reduction. The fuel economy ratings they set will probably be pretty modest if their is any truth to this rumor at all.



There is no horsepower war in WSBK and they aren't going to start one now. If anything this is just another annoying fence incoming manufacturers will have to jump in order to get into WSBK. I believe Norton is the team they are trying to screw over this time.

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povol said:

But thats just it, THERE NOT

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mylexicon said:

In MotoGP the MSMA said they wanted to cut fuel to regulate horsepower. There is no rev limit in MotoGP, in fact, the MSMA shun rev limits. In WSBK the manufacturers want to cut fuel to reduce cost and horsepower. I say that the MSMA actually want to impose a rev limit (that is below the current rev limit). The very next day, the bringer of facts (Krop), confirms that they are really after a rev limit that is ostensibly lower than current engine speeds and friendly to twins.



A rev limit?! What?! That thing the manufacturers would never agree to?! I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.



You should be asking yourself: How the F does Lex know that the manufacturers want an explicit rev limit when the MSMA (Honda in particular) have refused a rev limits in GP?



One more time for the record. WSBK is rev limited during homologation. The rev limit is 13,300rpm and I've had it confirmed to me by people who use it to race (albeit not in WSBK). I admit that I have absolutely no explicit proof that the rev limit is enforced in WSBK competition, but the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming---from the massive difference in potential horsepower between the bikes, to the MSMA statement that WSBK is supposed to be non-aggressive, to the the top speed data which is basically identical for all bikes, to simple empirical demonstrations like watching a Paul Bird bike annihilate a Pedercini bike in a straight line which clearly demonstrates that extra horsepower is usable. Seeing as this isn't a criminal court of law, and rev limiting is not a crime, I don't see the need for anything more than a preponderance of the evidence. In the minds of race fans, rev limiting is a crime and that is why they refuse to embrace the obvious.



If people don't believe me, I couldn't care less. From what Krop says, there's going to be a rev limit anyway which means everyone is going to be on the same page as me one way or another. I only care to point out that WSBK is rev limited now, b/c rev limits are what have created the intense competition, the variety of machinery, and the many different brands. They shun rev limits in MotoGP 24/7/365. If people knew that rev limits were the cause of the great racing in SBK, they would stop moaning about performance controls, and they would push for a rev limit in MotoGP so the manufacturers can build more designs than just 81mm 4-bangers.

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povol said:

So let me get this straight, If they place a rev limit on WSBK, your going to pat yourself on the back and say, told you they had a rev limit. WOW

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mylexicon said:

No.



If the idea of rev limits in the future is not patently absurd, then the idea of rev limits now is not patently absurd. The same people who run the sport now will be introducing a rev limit in the near future. The idea that the manufacturers want a rev limit is not an absurdity and it never will be an absurdity b/c every major racing series on the face of the planet has abandoned horsepower wars except MotoGP. That's why GP has done so many stupid things over the last few years with fuel limits and displacement limits. Anything to avoid a horsepower cap, even if the sport collapses.



People need to dial it back a notch. The manufacturers have just said they want a rev limit. If you think I'm full of it, this is not the time for you to be tightening the screws. If information about a current homologated rev limit is ever going to surface, now is the best chance.



Honda Suzuki and Ducati have just proven they are not opposed to rev limits so the motivation has been established. If information about a current homologated rev limit comes out, I'm double golden. On the flip, a lot of people are going to have to eat crap if information about a homologated rev limit is leaked. It shouldn't be that way. All I did was create an alternative hypothesis to explain all of the utterly-insulting lies the MSMA make up (fuel limits to cut costs? really?!). Krop's article makes perfect sense to me, and I know exactly what they are doing. How did I know they were actually after a rev limit? I'm chronically lucky? or have I explained the problems with the escalating rev limit at least a dozen times?



People can say/do whatever they want b/c it's not going to change what has just happened. WSBK is moving publicly towards the exact method of performance control that I claim they I claim they already use. I'm sure this is just a big coincidence.

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