WSBK Considering drastically lower Fuel Limits

mylexicon · Sep 13, 2010

povol said:
Just look at the graph, even if they are at 8000 RPMs coming out of a corner, the bike with fatter numbers will slightly pull the BMW until its playing catch up the whole straight. I made the comment in the other rev thread that regardless of how much HP the BMW made stock, the Suzuki and Yamaha were better in race trim because of their delivery. Like Krop said, big HP numbers are overrated if you cant use them

A couple of things. First of all, you can modify those curves significantly with a pipe b/c exhaust length effects the rpm level at which max torque occurs. Don't ask me how, I can't tell you, but it does. Second, in WSBK trim, the BMW is allegedly capable of right around 15,500rpm or 240bhp. At the same mean piston velocity, the current Kawasaki is only capable of 14,000rpm or 220bhp. Even considering the 13,300rpm rev limit, the graph doesn't show the applicable rev range, and it doesn't show what happens when all of the manufacturers modify for max compression (roughly the same figure for all of them, I'm sure).

Furthermore, the phenomenon you are describing doesn't exist consistently in WSBK. We don't see a BMW chase down a Suzuki only to be dropped in the bendy sections. It never happens. We've never seen it at any track even if it is theoretically possible. We see a bunch of 1000cc bikes that all go roughly the exact same speed in a straight line, and roughly the same speed in the corners. They guys with good setups (usually all on different brands) start to ease away from the rest and they continue to run nose to tail at the same speed until someone can't cope with the tire wear or until someone wants it more or until Biaggi makes himself extra small and starts opening a minor straightline gap.

If WSBK worked the way you think it works, it would look like DSB with the Buell. BMW, Aprilia, and Yamaha would drive right past everyone on the straights, and then according to you, the properly tuned bikes with low-end would chase them down and pass them in the twisties. The cycle would repeat every lap just like DSB last year. Doesn't happen that way does it? WSBK looks more like WSS or AMA SS which features 4 different versions of the same 67mm x 42.5mm I-4 engine.

I understand the phenomenon you describe, and I know it is theoretically possible, but it never happens. What we see on the track looks like a bunch of bikes with exactly the same horsepower fighting over the same wake, and trying to squeeze the last 1% out of the bike with setup and cylinder pressure mods like fuel injectors and gear cams.

"It doesn't exist" applies to the theoretical sport you and Krop keep describing. WSBK looks exactly like a rev limited sport.

Kropotkin · Sep 14, 2010

mylexicon said:
But when you jump to CRT trim it is the engine with the highest possible potential (not the Aprilia?!). Is it just me or did Suter just say that the engine has undeveloped potential? BMW can't get the most out of their own engine? Is that what he meant? Freudian slip?

I'm sure BMW's electronics are not as good and I'm sure they struggle to get the chassis working perfectly with the tires, but we've seen Corser and Xaus follow someone out of a turn, stand the bike up, and hit the throttle, but nothing happens. Not even circuits with high trap speeds on the straight like Monza, or Qatar, or Valencia. How does a WSBK engine that can't even pull out of Suzuki's wake, the same engine that is supposedly going to be the GP contender? All they've done is take the exact same engine, and move it from WSBK to a different rulebook (and no homologation procedures) in MotoGP.

That's electronics for you. The Bosch system BMW is using (from a starting point of exactly zero data at the start of last season) has not been refined enough to get sufficient drive out of the corners. If BMW had gone with Magneti Marelli and spent some of the 15 million a year they are currently spending on their program on a couple of top-level software guys, you might see another story. Instead, BMW are using this as a data-gathering exercise, to collect sufficient data to be competitive in a couple of years' time, rather than buying solutions in and winning now. Brave choice.

povol · Sep 14, 2010

mylexicon said:
A couple of things. First of all, you can modify those curves significantly with a pipe b/c exhaust length effects the rpm level at which max torque occurs. Don't ask me how, I can't tell you, but it does. Second, in WSBK trim, the BMW is allegedly capable of right around 15,500rpm or 240bhp. At the same mean piston velocity, the current Kawasaki is only capable of 14,000rpm or 220bhp. Even considering the 13,300rpm rev limit, the graph doesn't show the applicable rev range, and it doesn't show what happens when all of the manufacturers modify for max compression (roughly the same figure for all of them, I'm sure).

Furthermore, the phenomenon you are describing doesn't exist consistently in WSBK. We don't see a BMW chase down a Suzuki only to be dropped in the bendy sections. It never happens. We've never seen it at any track even if it is theoretically possible. We see a bunch of 1000cc bikes that all go roughly the exact same speed in a straight line, and roughly the same speed in the corners. They guys with good setups (usually all on different brands) start to ease away from the rest and they continue to run nose to tail at the same speed until someone can't cope with the tire wear or until someone wants it more or until Biaggi makes himself extra small and starts opening a minor straightline gap.

If WSBK worked the way you think it works, it would look like DSB with the Buell. BMW, Aprilia, and Yamaha would drive right past everyone on the straights, and then according to you, the properly tuned bikes with low-end would chase them down and pass them in the twisties. The cycle would repeat every lap just like DSB last year. Doesn't happen that way does it? WSBK looks more like WSS or AMA SS which features 4 different versions of the same 67mm x 42.5mm I-4 engine.

I understand the phenomenon you describe, and I know it is theoretically possible, but it never happens. What we see on the track looks like a bunch of bikes with exactly the same horsepower fighting over the same wake, and trying to squeeze the last 1% out of the bike with setup and cylinder pressure mods like fuel injectors and gear cams.

"It doesn't exist" applies to the theoretical sport you and Krop keep describing. WSBK looks exactly like a rev limited sport.

You were obsessing on why the BMW doesnt blow by the other bikes in straights, the example i gave showed just 1 of about 15 different reasons that have all been pointed out to you numerous times.Regardless of the BMW's HP, it is not as good a package as Yamaha,Suzuki, or Aprilia, YET. The graph was to show the characteristics of each engine, one is stronger in low end and mid range,the other is stronger at the top. Those characteristics will follow the engine, even when modded to WSBK specs. You can change it somewhat with gearing and tuning, but so can the other guys, and they will keep that advantage in low end and midrange. BMW built a high rev, high HP bike for street cred and sales, so far it has not translated into Superbike success.

mylexicon · Sep 14, 2010

povol said:
You were obsessing on why the BMW doesnt blow by the other bikes in straights, the example i gave showed just 1 of about 15 different reasons that have all been pointed out to you numerous times.Regardless of the BMW's HP, it is not as good a package as Yamaha,Suzuki, or Aprilia, YET. The graph was to show the characteristics of each engine, one is stronger in low end and mid range,the other is stronger at the top. Those characteristics will follow the engine, even when modded to WSBK specs. You can change it somewhat with gearing and tuning, but so can the other guys, and they will keep that advantage in low end and midrange. BMW built a high rev, high HP bike for street cred and sales, so far it has not translated into Superbike success.

Povol, you don't seem to get it. If BMW has a 1500rpm rev ceiling advantage, they exit the corner at 1500rpm more (theoretically). Compare the BMW at 9,000rpm with the Kawasaki at 8,000rpm. There goes your theory. Bye bye. Not realistic at all. Not to mention that it never manifests itself on track. What IS happening is that the bikes that should be crap off the corners (Aprilia, Yamaha, BMW) are actually the same or slightly better than the other bikes, and bikes that should have a massive straight line acceleration advantage (again Aprilia, Yamaha, BMW) can barely draft past their opponents (unless it's Biaggi making himself extra small).

You and Krop keep telling me that, in theory, very different bikes can run equal lap times. Okay great, I don't disagree, but what sport are you referring to? Clearly not WSBK. There is no 30hp advantage for anyone. No one gets left for dead in the corners (except Kwak who've built a new chassis for 2011).

They don't ever talk about horsepower in WSBK unless it's to accuse someone of cheating. Does that not seem odd? Accuse Aprilia of cheating when they have less horsepower than BMW? Air restricting the least powerful (or second least powerful) bike on the grid while allowing the mega-hp 4-bangers to run amuck?

You cannot explain these things, and you never will be able to explain them with the aggressive WSBK model b/c it's not real.

I know the FIM homologated rev limit exists. It has been confirmed to me. I showed it to you. It is real. The only thing left is to have someone on the inside confirm that it is used in WSBK competition by slipping up or by admitting it openly. The evidence is only going to get even more overwhelming in the near future when the sport is explicitly rev limited and Ducati go back to 1000cc twins. It's going to get worse when the exact same engines miraculously make 30hp more in a CRT bike.

Clearly, I'm not helping you understand anything so I'm going to stop before you dig yourselves any deeper.

povol · Sep 14, 2010

mylexicon said:
Povol, you don't seem to get it. If BMW has a 1500rpm rev ceiling advantage, they exit the corner at 1500rpm more (theoretically). Compare the BMW at 9,000rpm with the Kawasaki at 8,000rpm. There goes your theory. Bye bye. Not realistic at all. Not to mention that it never manifests itself on track. What IS happening is that the bikes that should be crap off the corners (Aprilia, Yamaha, BMW) are actually the same or slightly better than the other bikes, and bikes that should have a massive straight line acceleration advantage (again Aprilia, Yamaha, BMW) can barely draft past their opponents (unless it's Biaggi making himself extra small).

You and Krop keep telling me that, in theory, very different bikes can run equal lap times. Okay great, I don't disagree, but what sport are you referring to? Clearly not WSBK. There is no 30hp advantage for anyone. No one gets left for dead in the corners (except Kwak who've built a new chassis for 2011).

They don't ever talk about horsepower in WSBK unless it's to accuse someone of cheating. Does that not seem odd? Accuse Aprilia of cheating when they have less horsepower than BMW? Air restricting the least powerful (or second least powerful) bike on the grid while allowing the mega-hp 4-bangers to run amuck?

You cannot explain these things, and you never will be able to explain them with the aggressive WSBK model b/c it's not real.

I know the FIM homologated rev limit exists. It has been confirmed to me. I showed it to you. It is real. The only thing left is to have someone on the inside confirm that it is used in WSBK competition by slipping up or by admitting it openly. The evidence is only going to get even more overwhelming in the near future when the sport is explicitly rev limited and Ducati go back to 1000cc twins. It's going to get worse when the exact same engines miraculously make 30hp more in a CRT bike.

Clearly, I'm not helping you understand anything so I'm going to stop before you dig yourselves any deeper.

One more time for the record. WSBK is rev limited during homologation. The rev limit is 13,300rpm and I've had it confirmed.

I don't know for sure that WSBK is rev limited

I know the FIM homologated rev limit exists. It has been confirmed to me.

Setback,right when we thought you were getting better. Seriously Lex, do yo even bother to try and remember what you say from day to day.

Kropotkin · Sep 14, 2010

mylexicon said:
It's going to get worse when the exact same engines miraculously make 30hp more in a CRT bike.

Those CRT engines will bear little or no relation to the WSBK bikes. WSBK is extremely limited on what they can do. The CRT bikes will have new cases, new cranks, new rods, different bore and stroke, different heads, completely different valve sizes, possibly different valve drive, different ECUs, different throttle bodies and injectors, different gearing. The CRT bikes will be like the WCM: the only thing that Peter Clifford didn't change on that bike was the engine mounting points. Everything else was custom made.

The idea behind the CRT rules is that you have a cheap base to start from (e.g. the production engine). But there are no limits on the changes you can make.

And I want to know who or what confirmed that WSBK is rev limited. Because the people who I've talked to (who ought to know) look at me as if I'm crazy when I suggest such a thing.

povol · Sep 14, 2010

Kropotkin said:
Those CRT engines will bear little or no relation to the WSBK bikes. WSBK is extremely limited on what they can do. The CRT bikes will have new cases, new cranks, new rods, different bore and stroke, different heads, completely different valve sizes, possibly different valve drive, different ECUs, different throttle bodies and injectors, different gearing. The CRT bikes will be like the WCM: the only thing that Peter Clifford didn't change on that bike was the engine mounting points. Everything else was custom made.

The idea behind the CRT rules is that you have a cheap base to start from (e.g. the production engine). But there are no limits on the changes you can make.

And I want to know who or what confirmed that WSBK is rev limited. Because the people who I've talked to (who ought to know) look at me as if I'm crazy when I suggest such a thing.

No one confirmed it, lex did a little math, then threw out 15 other factors as to why the BMW is not the most dominant bike on the grid. He even evoked your name, saying you somehow confirmed it, to give his theory credence.God only knows what he was thinking when he compared WSBK engines to future GP engines.

povol · Sep 14, 2010

mylexicon said:
Povol, you don't seem to get it. If BMW has a 1500rpm rev ceiling advantage, they exit the corner at 1500rpm more (theoretically). Compare the BMW at 9,000rpm with the Kawasaki at 8,000rpm. There goes your theory. Bye bye. Not realistic at all. Not to mention that it never manifests itself on track. What IS happening is that the bikes that should be crap off the corners (Aprilia, Yamaha, BMW) are actually the same or slightly better than the other bikes, and bikes that should have a massive straight line acceleration advantage (again Aprilia, Yamaha, BMW) can barely draft past their opponents (unless it's Biaggi making himself extra small).

You and Krop keep telling me that, in theory, very different bikes can run equal lap times. Okay great, I don't disagree, but what sport are you referring to? Clearly not WSBK. There is no 30hp advantage for anyone. No one gets left for dead in the corners (except Kwak who've built a new chassis for 2011).

They don't ever talk about horsepower in WSBK unless it's to accuse someone of cheating. Does that not seem odd? Accuse Aprilia of cheating when they have less horsepower than BMW? Air restricting the least powerful (or second least powerful) bike on the grid while allowing the mega-hp 4-bangers to run amuck?

You cannot explain these things, and you never will be able to explain them with the aggressive WSBK model b/c it's not real.

I know the FIM homologated rev limit exists. It has been confirmed to me. I showed it to you. It is real. The only thing left is to have someone on the inside confirm that it is used in WSBK competition by slipping up or by admitting it openly. The evidence is only going to get even more overwhelming in the near future when the sport is explicitly rev limited and Ducati go back to 1000cc twins. It's going to get worse when the exact same engines miraculously make 30hp more in a CRT bike.

Clearly, I'm not helping you understand anything so I'm going to stop before you dig yourselves any deeper.

Did you ever hear the joke about theory and reality.

A 5th grade student named Lex was sent home with an assignment to write an essay on theory vs reality. His dad saw him struggling and asked him what was the problem. He explained his assignment to his dad, who thought for a minute and said,son, go upstairs and ask your sister if she would .... old Mr Smith next door for a million dollars. Lex came back and said to his dad, Sis said she would do damn near anything for a million dollars. Now son, go ask your mom the same question. Lex came back and informed his dad that mom would also .... old Mr Smith for a million dollars. The dad turned to Lex and says, theres your answer. In theory, we are millionaires, in reality, we are living witha couple of whores.

You cant theorize, when there are so many variables that affect the theory. We are talking reality, you are talking theory

FACTORY · Sep 14, 2010

Kropotkin said:
Suzuki built a road bike they wanted to go racing with. BMW (and Aprilia) built a race bike for the road.

Ducati will feeel bad that you did not mention the 1098R....

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