With the CRT heading to its rightful place

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In the garbage bin, lets turn our focus on who will choose  to purchase the complete Honda, or lease the Yamaha engine and build their own chassis. I really cant imagine why anyone would chose the Yamaha package over the Honda.I think i read where Yamaha would offer 4 of their packages, while i didnt see any set number of how many Honda would offer
 
A positive for the Yamaha engine in own chassis is that if someone wants to roll the dice and innovate, yes I know that innovate is a dirty word in MotoGP these days, then there is a chance that an advantage could be gained and a win or podium be achieved. The Honda production GP bike on the other hand will always finish a certain distance back from the factory bike by design.
 
What wil be funny is when they finish behind the ART... and people laughing over the demise of CRT might have to suck it up and realise that calling them dead after only one season of competition is a bit previous.


 


I like the CRT concept, I think it should end up being beneficial to the sport, if there was some form of technology cap on the factories. As it is, they don't stand a chance against a $60M HRC budget.
 
Mental Anarchist
3399411357380878


A positive for the Yamaha engine in own chassis is that if someone wants to roll the dice and innovate, yes I know that innovate is a dirty word in MotoGP these days, then there is a chance that an advantage could be gained and a win or podium be achieved. The Honda production GP bike on the other hand will always finish a certain distance back from the factory bike by design.


 


The fear of giving up an 8th place for a 12th place is greater than the will to improve to a podium. The teams' fear of anything different is much greater than their will to win. They are as risk averse as anyone with their money in a low-interest savings account.
 
Kropotkin
3399511357395877


 


The fear of giving up an 8th place for a 12th place is greater than the will to improve to a podium. The teams' fear of anything different is much greater than their will to win. They are as risk averse as anyone with their money in a low-interest savings account.


I read your recent article covering such.  I agree.  But you are only thinking about the existing players.  If we are to rely on the existing players only then MotoGP will never grow.  There are some massively wealthy people out there.  Wealthy people are less likely to conform/comply than the rest of us poor folk who are taught to comply from birth.  If MotoGP can entice these people to enter the sport with their spare change then we could see innovation.  After all, isn't motorcycling traditionally a form of anarchism?


 


I am sure that smart engineers don't want to just keep looking to evolve in tiny steps the status quo.  There must be engineers who want to re-invent the wheel and are smart enough to do it.  If only they could find a bank balance who wants to do the same then MotoGP could get turned on its head. Thats what we want isn't it?
 
 
The problem with that is that the rules as they are now stifle innovation in favour of 'exciting' racing.


 


Simplifying the rules to a cc limit, bore limit, weight and fuel load would go a long way to enticing some left-field engineering to the show.


 


As it is, unless you make a 4-cyl poppet-valve 4T engine in either across-the frame or V configuration, you may as well not bother.
 
We are talking about a team buying a Yamaha engine/electronic package so we are not talking about engine innovation. There is nothing, except a control tyre, stopping a team innovating with the chassis.


The fact that teams and manufacturers are so conservative and risk adverse says to me there are big ideas undeveloped that could totally revolutionise motorcycles as we know it. Comparatively the motorcycle industry is still trying to eek out more performance from the Commodore 64. We have not seen the equivalent motorcycle to a modern PC, iMac, laptop or tablet yet.
 
Mental Anarchist
3399641357447027

We are talking about a team buying a Yamaha engine/electronic package so we are not talking about engine innovation. There is nothing, except a control tyre, stopping a team innovating with the chassis.


The fact that teams and manufacturers are so conservative and risk adverse says to me there are big ideas undeveloped that could totally revolutionise motorcycles as we know it. Comparatively the motorcycle industry is still trying to eek out more performance from the Commodore 64. We have not seen the equivalent motorcycle to a modern PC, iMac, laptop or tablet yet.


thanks mate, exactly what i was about to say. making a powerful and usable donk is kids .... compared to real chassis, suspension or aero innovation.


i want to see a proper hub center steering machine make it to the grid. the lap time gains to be had from a chassis like that could be huge.
 
Or even something like this


 


1995_Britten_V1000_02.jpg
 
Exotic (anything remotely different that what's currently running) has great potential, but the damnable tires have such specific requirements...


 


What's need is a feeder or parallel series where chassis mods are welcome and a greater variety of tires are available.  Once the chassis is debugged and somewhat understood, only then can you start thinking about running the round rubber bricks.   IMO, trying to do both at once would likely lead to an Elias Syndrome, where the tires aren't working, everyone is pointing a finger, and no one has a fricking clue.
 
Geonerd
339974

Exotic (anything remotely different that what's currently running) has great potential, but the damnable tires have such specific requirements...

 

What's need is a feeder or parallel series where chassis mods are welcome and a greater variety of tires are available.  Once the chassis is debugged and somewhat understood, only then can you start thinking about running the round rubber bricks.   IMO, trying to do both at once would likely lead to an Elias Syndrome, where the tires aren't working, everyone is pointing a finger, and no one has a fricking clue.


Biggest problem is between the rider's ears. They've grown up racing telescopic forks, so would have to completely relearn everything they know before they would be able to push an FFE (funny front end) bike to its limits.
 
That's what Ron Haslam said - it took a lot to let the thing go and do what it was meant to do.
 
Kropotkin
3399841357509572


Biggest problem is the riders ears.. Been sayin that for years. Not to mention those ...... teeth.


 
 
Kropotkin
3399841357509572


Biggest problem is between the rider's ears. They've grown up racing telescopic forks, so would have to completely relearn everything they know before they would be able to push an FFE (funny front end) bike to its limits.


so maybe ducati should stick with the carbon fibre and build a moto3 desmo to groom riders eh?


 


edit: on a side note, i'm very much looking forward to seeing cortese move up on wp suspension.maybe the best way for other companies to enter the market for motogp spec suspension/brakes etc. is by backing riders from their career starts in moto3/2
 
BJ.C
3399601357445170


The problem with that is that the rules as they are now stifle innovation in favour of 'exciting' racing.


 


Simplifying the rules to a cc limit, bore limit, weight and fuel load would go a long way to enticing some left-field engineering to the show.


 


As it is, unless you make a 4-cyl poppet-valve 4T engine in either across-the frame or V configuration, you may as well not bother.


 


I don't think people grasp the issues with the 4-stroke displacement formula.


 


MotoGP bikes can probably make use of 230hp-250hp (or so). If the engine formula is 1000cc, hp can be made relatively cheaply. The problem is that tire technology continues to improve, the amount of useable power continues to increase, and the top speeds and trap speeds quickly get out of hand. If they reduce capacity to control the performance, the costs skyrocket b/c the smaller engines must rev harder and faster to make the same performance as the larger engines.


 


The MSMA attempted to solve the 4-stroke Catch-22 (the impossibility of both large and small engines) with fuel capacity limitations, which would theoretically control the rev ceiling. We all know how the MSMA's theory played out. Development made the fuel limitations ineffective for controlling the performance of the bikes. The costs skyrocketed. Superfluous electronics were created. Most tragically, another rider was killed before the 800s were gone. Beside the cost and safety issues, fuel limitations do not work in qualifying either.


 


The GPC must find a way to limit the bikes to around 230-250hp, while controlling costs and top/trap speeds. They can't limit horsepower too strictly or the MSMA will not participate. Displacement and bore limits do not accomplish this mission as the manufacturers would simply add more cylinders. Qualifying performance (possibly race performance as well) would be excessive, 'excessive' meaning the GPC is knowingly putting MotoGP bikes on track with speeds that exceed the FIA dimensions for runoff. Excessive speeds create safety and insurance liability problems.


 


The situation is extraordinarily complex, and within the debate are factions of individuals who refuse to compromise on tire technology, electronics, qualifying format, etc. Some of their biases are related to misconceptions held by the fans.
 
mylexicon
3400111357593561


 


I don't think people grasp the issues with the 4-stroke displacement formula.


 


MotoGP bikes can probably make use of 230hp-250hp (or so). If the engine formula is 1000cc, hp can be made relatively cheaply. The problem is that tire technology continues to improve, the amount of useable power continues to increase, and the top speeds and trap speeds quickly get out of hand. If they reduce capacity to control the performance, the costs skyrocket b/c the smaller engines must rev harder and faster to make the same performance as the larger engines.


 


The MSMA attempted to solve the 4-stroke Catch-22 (the impossibility of both large and small engines) with fuel capacity limitations, which would theoretically control the rev ceiling. We all know how the MSMA's theory played out. Development made the fuel limitations ineffective for controlling the performance of the bikes. The costs skyrocketed. Superfluous electronics were created. Most tragically, another rider was killed before the 800s were gone. Beside the cost and safety issues, fuel limitations do not work in qualifying either.


 


The GPC must find a way to limit the bikes to around 230-250hp, while controlling costs and top/trap speeds. They can't limit horsepower too strictly or the MSMA will not participate. Displacement and bore limits do not accomplish this mission as the manufacturers would simply add more cylinders. Qualifying performance (possibly race performance as well) would be excessive, 'excessive' meaning the GPC is knowingly putting MotoGP bikes on track with speeds that exceed the FIA dimensions for runoff. Excessive speeds create safety and insurance liability problems.


 


The situation is extraordinarily complex, and within the debate are factions of individuals who refuse to compromise on tire technology, electronics, qualifying format, etc. Some of their biases are related to misconceptions held by the fans.


 


And this relates to the discussion in which way?
 
Kropotkin
3399841357509572


Biggest problem is between the rider's ears. They've grown up racing telescopic forks, so would have to completely relearn everything they know before they would be able to push an FFE (funny front end) bike to its limits.


 


For sure the likes Rossi would not ride it. What you do is get the more adaptable young guys in moto3 on it before they get set in their ways and develop with them through to motogp. I think the problem with the hub set up is the handlebar to wheel relationship is a series of linkages and therefore can not provide the level of feel and feedback that the direct link of telescopic forks provide. Thus the great problem is front end losses occur with no warning, and we all know how bad that problem is. On the other hand massive gains can be made under brakes, whether its enough to compensate who knows, would like to see someone try though.
 

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