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We're talking ships here aren't we!!??
Sticking a sticker on the side of an outboard saying "eco" and then DI'ing the fuel in tiny amounts, at much reduced potential power of a "ye olde" two stroke, is not curving the momentum of four strokes in outboards.
Saves on tooling up for a "ye olde" manufacturer though
Mind you I'm all for it, if they ever manage to make miniature ships engines that are proportionally as dynamically efficient as a big 50,000HP diesel.
In any case, why develop an engine for a dying fuel ...... I hear somebody has discovered a new engine type that will soon overtake IC engines in performance ......... electrickity or some such its called. Can't wait for all the "magna Pulse"/"buzzer"/"grandmas vibrator" ... configurations to come out too ....... so much development in the future.
Ducati didn't get all the parts tested, and not all are produced. What I can make out is it's mostly stuff related to the inlet tract, injectors, butterflies, that sort of thing, plus the electronics to control them. Trouble is they have also moved the ECU to a different location on the bike, and this causes headaches.
Pedrosa racing new bike, Stoner probably racing new engine.
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They have .... but its a mexican standoff ........
they promised to bring new parts if Rossi rides faster .........
but they realized Rossi isn't going to ride faster till after they fit the parts ...... if ever.
Arrabbiata1
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And when I suggested that Ducati were about to bin the CF chassis for a twin spar aluminium frame you assured us that wouldn't happen either. I hope you are right this time. Carbon discs are horrifyingly expensive - I believe far from a freeze on price increases next season they want a substantial lowering in the price of supply.
Ezpeleta spoke to Brembo. Brembo said that the technology was always moving forward, and this was why it was so expensive. Ezpeleta said "well, in that case, maybe we ought to think about banning carbon brakes". Brembo's response: "Now that we think about it, maybe we can take another look at our pricing policy...". This isn't about technology, it's about price. Steel brakes would be nearly as expensive. Spec brakes would be better, because Brembo would get a defined role and be forced to sell the brakes at a specific (low) price.
Honda must be pissed then, all those new parts and Casey is riding slower straight into the sand pit or other riders again.
I guess that's a 'reverse' stand off then
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Casey is leaving, and Honda are still bringing him new parts .......... .......
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Actually, I don't. The pinnacle, like the best of the best, is a relative term, not an absolute term. As long as Jorge Lorenzo is riding in MotoGP, or being beaten by Marc Marquez or Valentino Rossi, or Pol Espargaro, then this is the best series in the world. These bikes are already dumbed down, the spec tire rule has forced design limitations, the fuel limit even worse design limitations. Why do we have both a capacity limit and a fuel limit? It makes no sense.
These are crippled machines. I don't think that the extent to which they are crippled really makes that much difference.
Here's a real prototype:
They are breaking track records
Actually, I don't. The pinnacle, like the best of the best, is a relative term, not an absolute term. As long as Jorge Lorenzo is riding in MotoGP, or being beaten by Marc Marquez or Valentino Rossi, or Pol Espargaro, then this is the best series in the world. These bikes are already dumbed down, the spec tire rule has forced design limitations, the fuel limit even worse design limitations. Why do we have both a capacity limit and a fuel limit? It makes no sense.
These are crippled machines. I don't think that the extent to which they are crippled really makes that much difference.
Here's a real prototype:
They are breaking track records, that shows advancement. When they implement a 15k rev limit and/ or a spec ECU, that will cease to happen. It is the kiss of death to go backwards. I guess with your way of thinking, they could just shorten the track every year so the times would look good.. That would keep GP as the pinnacle as well huh.
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"Welcome To The Monkey House"
When they went from 990cc to 800cc, it took about half a season before they started breaking records again.
Does it matter, though? Do we have to keep breaking lap records? Are the riders racing against each other in the current year, or against the ghosts of the past?
Moto GP, being more at the cutting edge, is to an extent a reflection of the cultural and economic trends prevailing in society. During boom times people are more inclined to buy high-end motorcycles and go to races, and manufacturers more inclined to chase those dollars--the whole process is in an expansion mode. Then came the financial crisis, and that expansion slowly began to kick into reverse. Some people began to spend more cautiously, affecting both the manufacturers and the race promoters, and the sport itself. Some manufacturers and teams have left, sponsors are harder to find, as the pie shrinks.
Rossi, as the premier rider during the boom years, became an international celebrity in a way that no other rider had, drawing in a signficant number of non-motorcycle-enthusiast fans. Rossi became, to some, more important than the racing itself. If you asked some of those people what kind of bike Rossi rode, more than a few would probably answer "yellow." But Rossi is no longer winning, and the interest of those who saw him as more of a celebrity than a racer, is waning.
Moto GP is shrinking, and we all see the results. Fewer "real" bikes on the grid, fewer slots for top riders, rule changes that are responses to outside forces, riders walking away. Our sport is changing, and many of us don't like it. So we ..... about Moto GP, ..... at each other, talk about how the grass is greener at WSBK, etc. I can't help but think that this is a factor.
Rossi, as the premier rider during the boom years, became an international celebrity in a way that no other rider had, drawing in a signficant number of non-motorcycle-enthusiast fans. Rossi became, to some, more important than the racing itself. If you asked some of those people what kind of bike Rossi rode, more than a few would probably answer "yellow." But Rossi is no longer winning, and the interest of those who saw him as more of a celebrity than a racer, is waning.
Moto GP is shrinking, and we all see the results. Fewer "real" bikes on the grid, fewer slots for top riders, rule changes that are responses to outside forces, riders walking away. Our sport is changing, and many of us don't like it. So we ..... about Moto GP, ..... at each other, talk about how the grass is greener at WSBK, etc. I can't help but think that this is a factor.
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It is interesting maybe to remember, by the way, that both these 'true' prototypes failed to beat the 'lesser' prototypes of their time.
According to engineers they had some undeniable technological edge, pity that the riders could not ride them (an Australian rider actually got killed by the Guzzi V8 trying to exploit its speed at Imola).
There is certainly room to improve the prototype nature of the sport, but if it's just to chase down quicker lap times without competition and entertainment for the fans then it's just high priced masturbation. No one wants more TT style racing, or should I say very few want it.
Improving the prototype nature of vital equipment such as tyres and engine life/management through fuel is a better place to start. Perhaps a tyre war aided by compound and construction regs to better suit all manufacturers is a good launch pointt......
Improving the prototype nature of vital equipment such as tyres and engine life/management through fuel is a better place to start. Perhaps a tyre war aided by compound and construction regs to better suit all manufacturers is a good launch pointt......
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Yes, Ducati have to update the injection system (implementing double injectors) and related electronics to integrate the injection system with the new generation of predictive TC (rather than just cutting sparks to reduce power), same as Honda and Yamaha are doing since quite some time. That's the main development under way in the short term, which should succeed in making the engine response smoother (remember Stoner at Valencia in 2010, he said that the engine of the Honda felt much smoother).
Krop, a good topic and one that will no doubt bring forth a range of emotions, ideas and scuuttlebutt but I will be honest outright and say that I do not have issues with MGP that I could term as 'hating' so not sure if my thoughts are valid or simply that, my thoughts.
Me, personally I rarely watch WSBK but will check results eventually, often a day or so after the races have been run and won and only check to see how the Aussies have gone in Supersports more than the main game. But MGP is different, I will try to watch it where possible, or watch highlights and will always check the results asap, and not just to see how the Aussies have gone but to check the placing, time gaps and stores (or excuses as some may claim them to be). For me, there is no competitor for MGP as it is the best category as it runs the best bikes (that being the factory 'prototypes' and yes, that means I care little for the CRT formula as I see it as an embryonic attempt at this stage and not a final formula
Personally I am not so certain of reasons for the 'MGP Hate' as you call it but can and have seen it develop over the last few years to now be the main focus in a number of forums.
For me, as I have stated I do not hate MGP as I simply must have my 'fix', but that does not mean that I feel that all is 'peachy' or 'smelling roses' within the sport, quite the contrary in some aspects.
I do not like CRT's. I do understand and recognise the intent of the formula but to date it has for me been an abject failure in that it has failed to improve of produce a 'better show'. Personally I feel that if CRT's are to be the way of the future they should remove their requirement to use the same tyres as the prototypes and instead open up the range of tyres for the CRT bikes to hopefully allow them to perform better.
Additionally or alternately I would like to see the same aspect done for the prototypes as it is a certainty that the tyres being used do not suit (evenly) all bikes or riders, thus I would like to see a greater range of compounds available such that riders can 'gamble' on their tyre strategy whereas now the majority play 'follow the leader' with their nearest competitor.
Additionally, I do feel that DORNA have shown favouritism and should not involve themselves in such shenanigans as the Rossi to Yamaha or Ducati imbroglio but instead they should remain impartial for all such situations as well as being open and accountable for the sport in general.
Whilst I do fully understand and support their desires to ensure representation from a number of member countries I also strongly feel that the best riders should be in the best category and if that means no Aussies (for example) because we are not good enough and/or our feeder systems are poor, than I fully support it. No country should have a lesser or undeserving rider in the category because of passport as to first complain of the 'spanish/italian' influx and say it is passport related it is then hypocritical to have an Aussie there because of their password.
Being honest, I also am sick to death of the constant rule changes as the seemingly never ending changes does not allow people (fans) to become accustomed or even familiar with the rules throughout the season and therefore form an alignment. For me, the sport needs stability first and foremost to grow as we have been through some tough economic times and constant change means increased costs which may well be another rod for the neck of the sport in the short term
Best category should be best bikes and best riders.
IMO, the sport is on a downer, that is for certain but I will still follow and support it as for me it is the epitomy of motorcycle track/road racing but it does, IMO need tweaking to a small degree
Me, personally I rarely watch WSBK but will check results eventually, often a day or so after the races have been run and won and only check to see how the Aussies have gone in Supersports more than the main game. But MGP is different, I will try to watch it where possible, or watch highlights and will always check the results asap, and not just to see how the Aussies have gone but to check the placing, time gaps and stores (or excuses as some may claim them to be). For me, there is no competitor for MGP as it is the best category as it runs the best bikes (that being the factory 'prototypes' and yes, that means I care little for the CRT formula as I see it as an embryonic attempt at this stage and not a final formula
Personally I am not so certain of reasons for the 'MGP Hate' as you call it but can and have seen it develop over the last few years to now be the main focus in a number of forums.
For me, as I have stated I do not hate MGP as I simply must have my 'fix', but that does not mean that I feel that all is 'peachy' or 'smelling roses' within the sport, quite the contrary in some aspects.
I do not like CRT's. I do understand and recognise the intent of the formula but to date it has for me been an abject failure in that it has failed to improve of produce a 'better show'. Personally I feel that if CRT's are to be the way of the future they should remove their requirement to use the same tyres as the prototypes and instead open up the range of tyres for the CRT bikes to hopefully allow them to perform better.
Additionally or alternately I would like to see the same aspect done for the prototypes as it is a certainty that the tyres being used do not suit (evenly) all bikes or riders, thus I would like to see a greater range of compounds available such that riders can 'gamble' on their tyre strategy whereas now the majority play 'follow the leader' with their nearest competitor.
Additionally, I do feel that DORNA have shown favouritism and should not involve themselves in such shenanigans as the Rossi to Yamaha or Ducati imbroglio but instead they should remain impartial for all such situations as well as being open and accountable for the sport in general.
Whilst I do fully understand and support their desires to ensure representation from a number of member countries I also strongly feel that the best riders should be in the best category and if that means no Aussies (for example) because we are not good enough and/or our feeder systems are poor, than I fully support it. No country should have a lesser or undeserving rider in the category because of passport as to first complain of the 'spanish/italian' influx and say it is passport related it is then hypocritical to have an Aussie there because of their password.
Being honest, I also am sick to death of the constant rule changes as the seemingly never ending changes does not allow people (fans) to become accustomed or even familiar with the rules throughout the season and therefore form an alignment. For me, the sport needs stability first and foremost to grow as we have been through some tough economic times and constant change means increased costs which may well be another rod for the neck of the sport in the short term
Best category should be best bikes and best riders.
IMO, the sport is on a downer, that is for certain but I will still follow and support it as for me it is the epitomy of motorcycle track/road racing but it does, IMO need tweaking to a small degree
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Great thread. Kropo, are u here at Laguna? Im gonna assume ur not since u have the time to moderate this thread. We need to honestly figure out a way to get u here.
I'll contribute my $0.02 worth of opinion later as u have brought up a good discussion that has still much to be said on the subject. For the moment, i love and follow most anything moto racing, today im at Laguna AMA/GP next weekend i'll have the privilege of attending Wsbk in Silvertone (all bcuz of the peeps i met on "motogpforum.com"); however, im under no illusions or delusions of either series. As i said, great topic, and much more to be discussed by 'us' (a small constituent of members of this and other forums) who i consider to be 'the consumers, conscience, and monitors of motorcycle roadracing.'
(Other than two post, all have been great contributions. Barry & Talps, each of u had good post until u went 'verses'; please, lets not turn this into VR vs CS. We can do that on other threads. )
Please carry on gentz.
I'll contribute my $0.02 worth of opinion later as u have brought up a good discussion that has still much to be said on the subject. For the moment, i love and follow most anything moto racing, today im at Laguna AMA/GP next weekend i'll have the privilege of attending Wsbk in Silvertone (all bcuz of the peeps i met on "motogpforum.com"); however, im under no illusions or delusions of either series. As i said, great topic, and much more to be discussed by 'us' (a small constituent of members of this and other forums) who i consider to be 'the consumers, conscience, and monitors of motorcycle roadracing.'
(Other than two post, all have been great contributions. Barry & Talps, each of u had good post until u went 'verses'; please, lets not turn this into VR vs CS. We can do that on other threads. )
Please carry on gentz.
Arrabbiata1
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Well it unfortunately isn't about to happen in the race again
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Bit dissappointed with this. There's a difference between people caring enough for the sport to voice concern about its direction and what you call "dumping on/hating". I get the sense you're advocating a norm of 'thou shalt not criticise'.
I'd also be careful with the comparisons between motogp and WSBK. I know there's a lot of people saying stuff like 'the sbk racing is better, I'll only watch that in the future' etc., and that's what seems to have set you off in the first place. That's something different than considerations about the feasability of having these 2 seperate series and the conditions necessary to maintain that situation, or reasons for changing it. Some of the things I read in this thread almost appear to say 'don't complain about motogp, wsbk is just as bad or worse'. That's not a valid argument.
To make an analogy with politics: When people actively complain about a country, this is considered to some extent a good thing. People that complain, care. Do you want to tell those people 'Don't complain, there are other countries that are worse' or 'Don't complain, it used to be much worse 50 years ago'?
I'd also be careful with the comparisons between motogp and WSBK. I know there's a lot of people saying stuff like 'the sbk racing is better, I'll only watch that in the future' etc., and that's what seems to have set you off in the first place. That's something different than considerations about the feasability of having these 2 seperate series and the conditions necessary to maintain that situation, or reasons for changing it. Some of the things I read in this thread almost appear to say 'don't complain about motogp, wsbk is just as bad or worse'. That's not a valid argument.
To make an analogy with politics: When people actively complain about a country, this is considered to some extent a good thing. People that complain, care. Do you want to tell those people 'Don't complain, there are other countries that are worse' or 'Don't complain, it used to be much worse 50 years ago'?
