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Why its time to combine MotoGP and WSBK

#22

#22

Joined Oct 2008
6K Posts | 5K+
In Cider
Toby Moody's article from www.autosport.com.



His argument for the merge seems to be pretty much around the race calendars clashing...really?



Why it's time to combine MotoGP and WSBK

As more race calendars collide, as they did last weekend, Toby Moody asks whether it's time to consider whether motorsport is overloading its fans. And where does motorcycle racing fall within all this? Is it finally time to combine the sport's two world championships?

The start of the 2011 British MotoGP



Last weekend was a bumper weekend of motorsport. MotoGP at Silverstone, Formula 1 at Montreal, World Superbikes at Misano and Le Mans 24 Hours meant fans didn’t get off the sofa for both days. Petrol heaven for some but overkill for others, and that includes motorcycling as a whole.



It’s pretty obvious that I love motorsport, but if I was at home last weekend I wouldn’t have watched all of it because I do actually like to do other things during a weekend at home.



There is much more of a cross over nowadays. A lot of car fans watch the bikes, but very few of those car people would have watched any motorcycle racing at all last weekend because Le Mans was, as predicted, coming right down to the wire. Monumental accidents coupled with the whole 'Germans against the French' plot kept everyone whom I spoke to riveted to the coverage.



With just an hour remaining at Le Mans, the leading Audi was 81 seconds in front, but that cascaded down to just 13.8s at the flag. That last hour also occupied the same time slot as the British Moto GP at Silverstone. Surely it reduced the viewing audience from the BBC coverage and certainly away from the all important for Dorna German TV market.



Bike fans had six different world championship motorcycle races to ingest. All of them started and finished within four hours of each other. MotoGP, Moto 2, WSBK x2, WSS and 125cc between all took place at Silverstone and Misano in that time period.



Who thinks up these schedules?



Regarding the weekend clash with the Formula 1 Canadian Grand Prix, it doesn’t matter so much because that’s in another time zone (if you have understanding dependables!), so MotoGP fits in quite nicely with a start five hours earlier. But to put the Silverstone weekend on top of Le Mans and then for WSBK to schedule its races right on top of MotoGP's card wasn't clever.



Let me take you back to the Barcelona Moto GP weekend. It's the week before Silverstone and I go to see the boss of the FIM, Vito Ippolito to discuss how he handles 'his' FIM World Championships, because when all is said and done they are the FIM's and not the Dorna or InFront championships.



"Formula One comes first (when deciding the calendar) but they don't want to clash with MotoGP," he explains. "Then WSBK. They also try to not clash with MotoGP because they often clash with F1.

This year's Le Mans was captivating for fans - especially the finish

This year's Le Mans was captivating for fans - especially the finish © LAT



"We have a season from March to November and in these nine months we have to fit everything in. We talk to the promoter asking them to change, but sometimes it's impossible and this is the case unfortunately with Silverstone and Misano."



Riders have voiced their concerns about triple-header races in the past, so the current run of races sees three sets of back-to-backs. It means we have six races in eight weekends. Could Silverstone have been pushed back to June 19th?



"Ah yes but then we have a triple weekend with Assen and Mugello," counters Vito.



We then have a good humoured, ironic discussion about Sunday night business class flights, private planes, motorhomes getting delivered and established at the track, boats in Ibiza etc. We can laugh about it as we both know that it's others who have it far harder.



"The mechanics are the ones working hard during these days," says Vito. "72-hour weeks are easily done by them. They are the ones that get affected."



Returning to our point, can the FIM not suggest to promoters that the 600cc WSS race is on Saturday or at 10am Sunday? Maybe the 125cc race get put on Saturday afternoon with their first practice on Thursday evening? I remind him that the Monday night Qatar 2009 race had mega TV figures because everyone was at home. No-one goes out on a Monday night, but obviously that is impossible for any race less Qatar.



He ponders this all without answering anything definitive, but his mind was turning over...



It's Ippolito's job to promote motor cycling the world over and if people are not watching because of aggressive and ill-thought out race schedules, then it is his responsibility to step up and try and do something about it.



Then again, the FIA has been good at ensuring there is one leading championship and only a couple of others of world status for many years now. It leaves no confusion as to which is king. (If I got a pound for every time people not in touch with the sport ask me about the World Superbikes when they actually mean MotoGP…)



The FIM has the power to cure this but they will have to reduce the status of the World Superbike Championship and the level if there is to be only one true motorcycle world championship. There will be people in the UK, USA, Australia and Italy who will be screaming blasphemy at this but actually in the greater scheme of things they are a small number globally.



Worldwide superbike sales have utterly collapsed so in the next couple of years WSBK may struggle. Meanwhile MotoGP is struggling massively at the moment with injured riders and the lack of money reducing grids to skeletal proportions. Why not combine things? All the best riders to be on one grid with all the best manufacturers – it would be a hell of a race!

The Canadian Grand Prix occupied the airwaves for more than four hours

The Canadian Grand Prix occupied the airwaves for more than four hours © LAT



I left the meeting in Barcelona having made this point with the boss, something that I've been saying for many a year; there is simply too much going on and there is no possibility of MotoGP or WSBK reducing their rounds as for every round there is income. It is their business to hold races and make money, but where is the limit? With F1 looking to a 21-race future, how will it be possible to reduce the amount of clashes?



Bumper weekends like the one just past are actually the tip of the iceberg as more and more live TV strives for the attention of the same number of fans. But remember, if TV figures go down so does the amount teams can ask of their sponsors. The ever decreasing circle will happen more and more as race clashes increase so let’s hope the powers that be have the remote control focussed on the future.
Click to expand...
 
If he means everybody goes to Moto..........nah wait.......it doesn't make sense on any level to me.



Lets just say you got everyone from WSBK to jump on a Moto ride ( to fill up the grid and create a blast of a race........yeah, I know
<
)............ The manufacturers would still only spit out a handful of factory machines. They would not be able to command more sponsorship $$$, cause there would be a heap of teams where the sponsors could chose to place their coin ......competitive Market Place.........Things would stay much as they are now.



EG,

Repsol........."we will pay $3 000 000 for sponsorship rights for next years machine"



Honda Factory...."We would like $5 000 000, as we require this to run the team as it is now"



Repsol........" That's ok........Gresini said $3 000 000 is all they require, so we go there"





I have had it pointed out to me, that Gresini is also a factory Honda..........I thought it was a satellite........but I'm apparently wrong. And that being the case, why wouldn't Repsol go with a cheaper, more Spanish team that is running the same equipment as the "Factory" bike ??



As for the rest of the grid, they would get the sponsors and the bikes they currently get..........small investors, and small capitol ( by the standards of Fiat, Repsol, Marlboro) and things would, I think, maintain a status quo..........albeit with larger grids.



It's still only motorsport.....will only ever pull the market it pulls now, and has no hope of competeing with sport giants such as Football and the like............which is where most of the worlds companies put there sponsorship $$$



It's all based on exposure for the $$$$ spent.



This idea of combining the two may make for great for TV...maybe even for track attendance, (more likelyhood of big, exiting crashes !!!! oh yea !!!
<
<
) to the people who get WSBK and Moto confused





.......and maybe frees up some space on the crowded calender...........





I can't see it doing .... all for anything else though.





As with all my comments, please refrain from personal attacks, you do not have to quote me and prove me wrong.



I am openminded, and state my opinion in the hope others offer theirs, and that I may learn.



Ta !!
<
 
Here's the end game. If they keep the WSBK rules similar to what they have now, and they move WSBK into the GP lineup, the national series will continue to fall apart which means the FIM controls nothing and the MSMA have no local race marketing. If they move WSBK to more stock rules, they unify rulebooks with FIM affiliated national series, and then they add WSBK as part of the GP lineup; SBK racing would enjoy a renaissance of sorts, and the national series would be clamoring for an international series of their own from which they can derive more revenues.



Unification is as narrow-minded as most of the proposals that have run through the GPC and SBKC--the proposals fix a pressing problem in the present by creating a dozen new problems in the future. If the FIM continues to bungle their management responsibilities, they will lose control of motorcycling.
 
mylexicon said:
. If the FIM continues to bungle their management responsibilities, they will lose control of motorcycling.
Click to expand...



these are not sacastic questions.



Is that a bad thing ???



Who would take their place ? ( he asks , wondering if it really may be a bad thing)



Thanks.
 
The national series go bankrupt, the FIM controls nothing but 2 international series.



The national series are as popular as they were in the 1990s with a unified rulebook and generous promoting. The national teams cannot get into the GP country club, and they have no international series of their own from which to derive big revenues. To combat the hegemony of the GP country club, the national series use their own homologation procedures and they band together to create an international championship (e.g. a Transatlantic Challenge) for which they create a new rulebook. Either that or one of the nationals breaks rulebook ties with the FIM to create a super series (what the AMA have tried to do for quite a long time, but they lacked the intelligence to accomplish). The new series becomes immensely popular with fans, and perhaps it has some really brilliant marketing minds behind it. The manufacturers decide that the Transatlantic Challenge is a better use of their production bike racing budgets so they join forces with the new international series. WSBK is rendered impotent, and the new series becomes the default international production bike racing series (think AMA SX or AMA MX, but without FIM cooperation). The FIM cannot retaliate b/c the new series is protected by the manufacturers.



Nothing sarcastic. The FIA/FIM are political organizations that have no real power. They are constantly being undermined by racing organizations like FOTA or national series like NASCAR or the AMA. If the FIA/FIM lose the participation of the manufacturers, they have no power. The rogue agents who seek to undermine the FIA (ACO, DTMeisterschaft, etc) generally chose to join forces with the FIM rather than go to war, but that is hardly an insurance policy when you look at how many great series have been killed or mismanaged by the international sanctioning bodies. In the past, it has been only the US that international sanctioning bodies have worried about, but the emerging nations of India and China will make US antagonism look like a minor inconvenience.



This is a treacherous time for international sanctioning bodies b/c racing technologies and production technologies are more incompatible with each passing year and new manufacturers are emerging from outside the traditional FIM/FIA spheres of influence. If the manufacturers stop making race vehicles, the racing teams and private technology firms control racing which means the FIM/FIA have got nothing by brand allegiance. Why do you think the FIA is obsessed with maintaining production-relevant technology like 1.6L 4-pots in F1? Why do you think ACO went to production-derived engines? The FIM is in a similar situation, but primarily b/c they are incompetent marketers and horrible product developers. First person to become a motorcycle marketing genius wins the day.



If racing divorces the major manufacturers or if the major manufacturers change their allegiance, racing will be a free-for-all. It will happen, but not yet.
 
WSBK = series for washed up MotoGP riders



Why would people want to see them race against the guys they couldn't beat again?"
 
eltoro said:
WSBK = series for washed up MotoGP riders



Why would people want to see them race against the guys they couldn't beat again?"
Click to expand...

This is the problem. They have taken a wrong pathway with motogp, with the msma as lex says largely responsible, so that motogp is both too expensive and not competitive enough. However the issue is whether close racing is the only end; you could probably achieve this by drawing the names of 20 riders from the crowd randomly from a hat and putting them on street 250 hondas.



The thing that has always appealed to me about premier class gp racing is that it is the best of the best, theoretically on the best, but my view seems to be becoming increasingly anachronistic. The fact remains though that the top motogp riders, ....... though some of them may be, would destroy the wsbk field as you imply, just taking a line through ben spies, let alone valentino rossi repeatedly thrashing max biaggi when max was in his prime or stoner being 3 seconds a lap faster than marco melandri (whom I like and am pleased to see doing well) on a factory ducati.



I also think that wsbk at times appears contrived as far as the bike equalisation/differential regulations according to manufacturer etc. Admittedly since ben spies went to motogp I currently have no horse in the race in wsbk at present which has decreased my interest, but I find supersport more authentic.
 
eltoro said:
WSBK = series for washed up MotoGP riders



Why would people want to see them race against the guys they couldn't beat again?"
Click to expand...



GP (particularly since the re-introduction of 4-strokes) puts a great deal of emphasis on the machine. Extraordinary people like Rossi or Stoner can overcome the limitations of the machine which lends credence to 80/20, but a vast majority of the riders cannot overcome the performance limitations of their machine.



When the rules are fair for Ducati, WSBK is almost entirely about the skill of the rider and his ability to nail the setup.



WSBK and GP are very different sports by design, and I am quite interested to see what happens when longtime GP riders move into WSBK. I only wish that the factories took WSBK more seriously, and they paid a decent wage for MotoGP's deadwood to move into WSBK more quickly. Too many GP riders screw around on satellite bikes or uncompetitive factory equipment when they should be getting a fat paycheck to sell bikes and win titles in WSBK. Instead, the manufacturers spend a majority of their budget hotting up production bikes so they can save .5 per lap. Who is at fault is debatable. MSMA purposely killed homologation specials which has sent the SBK racing industry into a tail spin. IMS forced manufacturers to equip production motorcycles with MotoGP-caliber parts that add very little performance, though they cannot be omitted.
 
I think the best thing for motorcycle racing is to merge the two, but it will never happen. I think it is likely that the groups involved would rather keep making as much money as possible, with dwindling grids than talk to eachother. Although I hope I'm wrong.



Splitting resources, sponsors and riders on two series, that to the casual fan look identical is complete stupidity. I can't believe that the manufacturers don't try and force the FIMs hand so they can just spend there advertising dollars in one basket. I remember one of the Yamaha bosses saying that having both was a waste of there budget.



There just isn't the money for both of these series. That is why we have such small grids in both. As a result we have the absolute crp racing that we have ad for most of the season in MotoGP.
 
michaelm said:
The thing that has always appealed to me about premier class gp racing is that it is the best of the best, theoretically on the best,
Click to expand...





While i have alot to start paying attention to, in regards to MSMA and IMS..of which I konow nothing, to me the thing that made GP's of the early 90's and before was that it was the best of the best......riding possibly the most expensive yes, but also the worst.



The bikes of the time, due to the pwer they produced, lack of rider/machine aids and generall technology of the day meant that if someone could succesfully pilot this overpowered, ill handling (which they all were, regardless of which one was slightly "friendlier" and more usable in any given year) machine to win a race or a championship, you were watching incredible talent at work.



Who is silly enough to compare riders of different era's ?



The thing for me now, which is unfortunate, is that I find myself thinking as I watch a race..is Stoner/Lorenzo/Pedrosa really flogging them with his talent, or are the electronic packages on the Honda/Yamaha/Ducati just better sorted this race/year.



This really detracts from the sport as a whole for me, because whether stoner's personality gets up my nose or not is irrelevant.The electronics detract from the marvel at someones talent on a bike.



In days gone by, you had to marvel at the ability of the rider.



everything was analogue........Brain connects to the wrist, wrist connects to the throttle, throttle connects to the carby, carby connects to the engine, engine connects to the back wheel.



When Rainey/Schwantz/Doohan/McCoy/Rossi slid a 500 through a corner using rear wheel steering.......you were watching their talent.



Now, like F1........some bloke with a lap top listens to the rider, looks at the telemetry, and dials the electronics in to give just the right amount of wheelspin at the desired throttle percentages.





If I had an interest in that, I would be buying PC World or the like.
 
Fred Gassit said:
While i have alot to start paying attention to, in regards to MSMA and IMS..of which I konow nothing, to me the thing that made GP's of the early 90's and before was that it was the best of the best......riding possibly the most expensive yes, but also the worst.



The bikes of the time, due to the pwer they produced, lack of rider/machine aids and generall technology of the day meant that if someone could succesfully pilot this overpowered, ill handling (which they all were, regardless of which one was slightly "friendlier" and more usable in any given year) machine to win a race or a championship, you were watching incredible talent at work.



Who is silly enough to compare riders of different era's ?



The thing for me now, which is unfortunate, is that I find myself thinking as I watch a race..is Stoner/Lorenzo/Pedrosa really flogging them with his talent, or are the electronic packages on the Honda/Yamaha/Ducati just better sorted this race/year.



This really detracts from the sport as a whole for me, because whether stoner's personality gets up my nose or not is irrelevant.The electronics detract from the marvel at someones talent on a bike.



In days gone by, you had to marvel at the ability of the rider.



everything was analogue........Brain connects to the wrist, wrist connects to the throttle, throttle connects to the carby, carby connects to the engine, engine connects to the back wheel.



When Rainey/Schwantz/Doohan/McCoy/Rossi slid a 500 through a corner using rear wheel steering.......you were watching their talent.



Now, like F1........some bloke with a lap top listens to the rider, looks at the telemetry, and dials the electronics in to give just the right amount of wheelspin at the desired throttle percentages.





If I had an interest in that, I would be buying PC World or the like.
Click to expand...





Yet ironically in F1 any form of traction control is now banned. Whereas in Motogp they now even have GPS TC to locate the bike on the track and dial the electronics for every different corner on the track.
 
Fred Gassit said:
....
Click to expand...



now that you have posted over a hundred times in the past week alone , can i kindly ask you to at least write coherent posts ?

reminding us all of "the good old days" at the end of every post (whether relevant or not) doesn't make it much better, any kid can dig up a few old vids and then go on about the mysthic rossis rear wheel steering on the 500
<








just wait for the performance of the 2012 crt teams...if they are somewhere near the top 10 ,wsbk rules will be more tailored towards superstock and the national series, theres no sense having CRT teams and the highly tuned WSBK spec bikes
 
Yet another post from you highlighting the fact that you constantly and consistantly miss the point.



I am not talking about the "good ol days" in the sense we should all go back to 500's,.......or that the riders were better.



The point is, I would rather watch the talent of the current crop of rider without the electronics.



Read the post before yours.......even F1 get the point.



(shock horror, another forum member even understood the point I was making.........he must love Rossi, eh
<
??)



Before you start throwing your weight around and telling people what you think, read and understand the crux of their post first ay !



I WOULD LIKE TO WATCH RIDERS ..........NOT LOOK AT THE EFFORTS OF THE PROGRAMMING GUY IN THE GARAGE.





I understand how wonderful technology is, however...........in seasons past, we got to WATCH THE SHEER ABILITY OF A RIDER AT WORK, WHETHER THEY WERE AT THE FRONT, MID PACK.....OR STONE MOTHER-LESS LAST





Another point is, I could care less whether it is rossi, Hayden, Stoner Lorenzo, or anyone else on the grid...........I have no unswerving loyalty and bias to any particular rider.





I enjoy watching them all RIDE.



Where is the skill ( at that level, with their ability) in riding a bike that has been programmed to issue the just the right amount of wheel spin, regardless of how hard the rider snaps the throttle open. (not that I could do it at those speeds)





Get it ??





again, put down the bong..............I did after 15 years, and belive me, things become a whole lot more coherent, and you tend to get the point of what people are actually talking about.





PS...they did land on the moon.



PPS, it's only my point of view,and illogical wish................ and makes .... all difference as to what will actually happen..



Much the same as your(and others) efforts at decrying anything Rossi does............ He's only as bad as the rest of them, though through his achievements, probably has more sway with the media, the general public and officials.......not that I agree with this.........but that's how stuff works in this game.



Not everyone has an unrequited love for one rider above all others, or a similar hatred of riders who can match, outperform, or accrue a level of winning beyond what their chosen idol is capable of, or less fortunate in being able to acheive due to machinery or the like........some of us enjoy watching the battle........regardless of who wins.



My ..... about Stoner has nothing to do with his riding ability........only again, that the moaning leaves a sour taste to the evening after watching brilliant( although largely influenced and affected by electronics) riding.



So don't start with the "Bopper" or lorenzo loving, pedrosa fan rubbish.........like I said....I could care less........a great race is thing I love.



I am only having this pointless diatribe with you in an effort to fight the force that is trying to repress, opress, and fight down my human spirit.
<




If you're going to put things in your signature, at least have the wisdom to understand it's meanings.............you seem to be acting like a mighty empire towards any opinion that does not meet the dictum of your dictatorship on opinion.



Freedom of expression chum.
 
mylexicon said:
WSBK is almost entirely about the skill of the rider and his ability to nail the setup.
Click to expand...



That is a bit of a myth, world superbikes has become more high tech and incorporates most of the technology that is seen on GP bikes a few years earlier. Many riders claim that they cannot win in motogp due the dependancy on equipment and move to world superbike, but i think the reality is actually that in WSBK they are good enough to get hold the top machinary while in GP they are not. This is only not true in the cases where the different (but not necessarily inferior) skill sets suit them more to a superbike over a GP machine.



bigbang said:
ok, let me ask you this way, how many riders have the bike to potentially win the championship this year?
Click to expand...



At most 4. Checa has, Biaggi has (Camier doesn't get quite the same level of machinary), and you could argue the Yamaha is up to it if the riders are.



In motogp, you have 4 factory Hondas and 2 Yamahas that all could arguably be worth of the title.
 
Tom said:
That is a bit of a myth, world superbikes has become more high tech and incorporates most of the technology that is seen on GP bikes a few years earlier. Many riders claim that they cannot win in motogp due the dependancy on equipment and move to world superbike, but i think the reality is actually that in WSBK they are good enough to get hold the top machinary while in GP they are not. This is only not true in the cases where the different (but not necessarily inferior) skill sets suit them more to a superbike over a GP machine.







At most 4. Checa has, Biaggi has (Camier doesn't get quite the same level of machinary), and you could argue the Yamaha is up to it if the riders are.



In motogp, you have 4 factory Hondas and 2 Yamahas that all could arguably be worth of the title.
Click to expand...



i agree with the first part but i'm not so sure about the competitive wsbk seats.

1. who says camier doesn't get the same bike ?( i'm not arguing here, but is there some sort of "proof" for that?"

2.the suzuki looked good with haslam on it

3. if we can believe what we hear about the electronics bmw is just waiting to break through
 
Tom said:
That is a bit of a myth, world superbikes has become more high tech and incorporates most of the technology that is seen on GP bikes a few years earlier. Many riders claim that they cannot win in motogp due the dependancy on equipment and move to world superbike, but i think the reality is actually that in WSBK they are good enough to get hold the top machinary while in GP they are not. This is only not true in the cases where the different (but not necessarily inferior) skill sets suit them more to a superbike over a GP machine.







At most 4. Checa has, Biaggi has (Camier doesn't get quite the same level of machinary), and you could argue the Yamaha is up to it if the riders are.



In motogp, you have 4 factory Hondas and 2 Yamahas that all could arguably be worth of the title.
Click to expand...



i agree with the first part but i'm not so sure about the competitive wsbk seats.

1. who says camier doesn't get the same bike ?( i'm not arguing here, but is there some sort of "proof" for that?"

2.the suzuki looked good with haslam on it

3. if we can believe what we hear about the electronics bmw is just waiting to break through
 

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