Who is your favourite manufacturer?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Mar 30 2008, 05:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't consider that a major flaw. Optimization is what engineering is about.

Yes. This is what we could call the corporate point of view, and it is valid because it makes a lot of business sense. Optimization must have something to optimize though, and that something is provided by the creativity of the trailblazers...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 1 2008, 04:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes. This is what we could call the corporate point of view, and it is valid because it makes a lot of business sense. Optimization must have something to optimize though, and that something is provided by the creativity of the trailblazers...

I must admit i enjoy a good bit of innovation as much as anyone, and racing is the best envirmonment to push things foreward. But ultimately there are no points for originality, only for speed. Honda have got the job done better than anyone else and that impresses me more than any amount of new ideas ever could. Each to their own of course

Honda because I thought the 211V was one of the coolest bikes ever made, but never really been a fan of their road bikes.

Ducati because I fell in love with the 996. You could get more exotic with a Benelli or an MV or even Aprilia but none have the guts of a Duc.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Apr 1 2008, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You could get more exotic with a Benelli or an MV or even Aprilia but none have the guts of a Duc.
MV's signature is the inline four. They got it right by being the first to push its cc's into a reliable race bike. I rate MV equally with Ducati in every way. If the japs didn't dive into two strokes, how different MotoGP would be today. MV could still be in it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 1 2008, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I must admit i enjoy a good bit of innovation as much as anyone, and racing is the best envirmonment to push things foreward. But ultimately there are no points for originality, only for speed. Honda have got the job done better than anyone else and that impresses me more than any amount of new ideas ever could. Each to their own of course

Hmmm... Have Honda really dominated MotoGP history?!

In the '60s Honda tried for several years to beat MV Agusta in the premier class, using copied-and-optimized engine designs (the classic 4-stroke IL-4 DOHC engine first used on GP motorcycles by Gilera in the late '30s) but even with Mike Hailwood as rider, they never succeeded.

The first Jap manufacturer to win a premier class title was not Honda, but Yamaha with his new 2-strokes, 4-cylinders, reed-valve revolutionary design, in 1975.

During all the late '70s and early '80s titles were won by either Yamaha or Suzuki, alternatively. Actually - now that I think of it - in 1981-82 Honda tried a very innovative and daring design (oval pistons, 8-valves 4-strokes V-4 500cc) which never had any hope against the 2-strokes. I must say, I appreciated Honda inventive at that time

Honda actually never won any premier class title, try as they might, until 1983 with Spencer on a 2-strokes 3-cylinders.

Yamaha then won in 1984, '85, and '86. Honda won again in 1987.
Yamaha won the title back in 1988. Honda won with Lawson in 1989.
Yamaha won in 1990, 1991 and 1992.
Suzuki won in 1993.

Only from 1994 to 2003 there is the formidable streak of Honda-dominated championships. It is 10 consecutive years, not bad at all! But is it enough to declare Honda as the absolute fastest and best? In the previous 20 years, they had won only 2 titles after all...

In 2004 and 2005 Yamaha dominated.
In 2006 Honda won again.
In 2007 Ducati dominated.
In 2008...?!

Who knows... Honda again?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 1 2008, 11:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hmmm... Have Honda really dominated MotoGP history?!

In the '60s Honda tried for several years to beat MV Agusta in the premier class, using copied-and-optimized engine designs (the classic 4-stroke IL-4 DOHC engine first used on GP motorcycles by Gilera in the late '30s) but even with Mike Hailwood as rider, they never succeeded.

The first Jap manufacturer to win a premier class title was not Honda, but Yamaha with his new 2-strokes, 4-cylinders, reed-valve revolutionary design, in 1975.

During all the late '70s and early '80s titles were won by either Yamaha or Suzuki, alternatively. Actually - now that I think of it - in 1981-82 Honda tried a very innovative and daring design (oval pistons, 8-valves 4-strokes V-4 500cc) which never had any hope against the 2-strokes. I must say, I appreciated Honda inventive at that time

Honda actually never won any premier class title, try as they might, until 1983 with Spencer on a 2-strokes 3-cylinders.

Yamaha then won in 1984, '85, and '86. Honda won again in 1987.
Yamaha won the title back in 1988. Honda won with Lawson in 1989.
Yamaha won in 1990, 1991 and 1992.
Suzuki won in 1993.

Only from 1994 to 2003 there is the formidable streak of Honda-dominated championships. It is 10 consecutive years, not bad at all! But is it not enough to declare Honda as the absolute fastest and best? In the previous 20 years, they had won only 2 titles after all...

In 2004 and 2005 Yamaha dominated.
In 2006 Honda won again.
In 2007 Ducati dominated.
In 2008...?!

Who knows... Honda again?
You ROCK!!!

I owned every brand but love my Ducatis.

BTW, the result doesn't seem to reflect what is out there. The brand I see the most living here in the States is Suzuki, yet they have one vote at the moment. Interesting.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 1 2008, 06:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hmmm... Have Honda really dominated MotoGP history?!

In the '60s Honda tried for several years to beat MV Agusta in the premier class, using copied-and-optimized engine designs (the classic 4-stroke IL-4 DOHC engine first used on GP motorcycles by Gilera in the late '30s) but even with Mike Hailwood as rider, they never succeeded.

The first Jap manufacturer to win a premier class title was not Honda, but Yamaha with his new 2-strokes, 4-cylinders, reed-valve revolutionary design, in 1975.

During all the late '70s and early '80s titles were won by either Yamaha or Suzuki, alternatively. Actually - now that I think of it - in 1981-82 Honda tried a very innovative and daring design (oval pistons, 8-valves 4-strokes V-4 500cc) which never had any hope against the 2-strokes. I must say, I appreciated Honda inventive at that time

Honda actually never won any premier class title, try as they might, until 1983 with Spencer on a 2-strokes 3-cylinders.

Yamaha then won in 1984, '85, and '86. Honda won again in 1987.
Yamaha won the title back in 1988. Honda won with Lawson in 1989.
Yamaha won in 1990, 1991 and 1992.
Suzuki won in 1993.

Only from 1994 to 2003 there is the formidable streak of Honda-dominated championships. It is 10 consecutive years, not bad at all! But is it enough to declare Honda as the absolute fastest and best? In the previous 20 years, they had won only 2 titles after all...

In 2004 and 2005 Yamaha dominated.
In 2006 Honda won again.
In 2007 Ducati dominated.
In 2008...?!

Who knows... Honda again?

I'm aware of the history thanks, and i maintain that Honda are the best. They didn't quite make it to the top at their first atempt, but they were trying to beat Ago and that was never gonna be easy because he is the GOAT. Since their return to GP racing in the 80's they really have lead the pack.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 1 2008, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I owned every brand but love my Ducatis.

BTW, the result doesn't seem to reflect what is out there. The brand I see the most living here in the States is Suzuki, yet they have one vote at the moment. Interesting.

We get a lot of GSXR's here too, mainly because they are cheap speed i think.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 1 2008, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I owned every brand but love my Ducatis.

BTW, the result doesn't seem to reflect what is out there. The brand I see the most living here in the States is Suzuki, yet they have one vote at the moment. Interesting.
Where in the hell is Harley Davidson. I see at least 2 harleys for ALL THE OTHER BRANDS COMBINED!!! What can I say, Coloradians have no taste

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 1 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm aware of the history thanks, and i maintain that Honda are the best.

You never let those pesky facts get in the way of your opinion, do you. Nothing new here.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 1 2008, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>They didn't quite make it to the top at their first atempt, but they were trying to beat Ago and that was never gonna be easy because he is the GOAT. Since their return to GP racing in the 80's they really have lead the pack.

So you attribute Honda not being able to win against MV because they had such an outstanding rider (as you put it "GOAT") yet the run of championships that Honda had are thanks to Doohan and Rossi, two of the greatest riders in the modern era. Amazing! Is there no end to such reasoning?


J4rn0, give up while you can.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 1 2008, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hmmm... Have Honda really dominated MotoGP history?!
Facts don't mean .... to some people.

Suzuki. Small company with excellent products. Technically innovative and successful. You can say their motogp machines are not the top of the heap but they finished well enough last year to be more than an also ran. My problem with them is that they don't concentrate enough on the motogp series and achieve what everyone knows is possible for them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 1 2008, 07:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You never let those pesky facts get in the way of your opinion, do you. Nothing new here.

Facts are that honda have more GP wins and manufacturers titles than any other factory. It doesn't matter how original other teams have been on the occasions they are successful, Honda have done better.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 1 2008, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Facts are that honda have more GP wins and manufacturers titles than any other factory. It doesn't matter how original other teams have been on the occasions they are successful, Honda have done better.

Maybe if you read it again it may make a little more sense to you:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 1 2008, 09:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Hmmm... Have Honda really dominated MotoGP history?!

In the '60s Honda tried for several years to beat MV Agusta in the premier class, using copied-and-optimized engine designs (the classic 4-stroke IL-4 DOHC engine first used on GP motorcycles by Gilera in the late '30s) but even with Mike Hailwood as rider, they never succeeded.

The first Jap manufacturer to win a premier class title was not Honda, but Yamaha with his new 2-strokes, 4-cylinders, reed-valve revolutionary design, in 1975.

During all the late '70s and early '80s titles were won by either Yamaha or Suzuki, alternatively. Actually - now that I think of it - in 1981-82 Honda tried a very innovative and daring design (oval pistons, 8-valves 4-strokes V-4 500cc) which never had any hope against the 2-strokes. I must say, I appreciated Honda inventive at that time

Honda actually never won any premier class title, try as they might, until 1983 with Spencer on a 2-strokes 3-cylinders.

Yamaha then won in 1984, '85, and '86. Honda won again in 1987.
Yamaha won the title back in 1988. Honda won with Lawson in 1989.
Yamaha won in 1990, 1991 and 1992.
Suzuki won in 1993.

Only from 1994 to 2003 there is the formidable streak of Honda-dominated championships. It is 10 consecutive years, not bad at all! But is it enough to declare Honda as the absolute fastest and best? In the previous 20 years, they had won only 2 titles after all...

In 2004 and 2005 Yamaha dominated.
In 2006 Honda won again.
In 2007 Ducati dominated.
In 2008...?!

Who knows... Honda again?

Don't you find it interesting that Honda dominated with Doohan/Rossi, but as soon as Rossi jumped on a Yamaha, all of a sudden they won a few titles? So which is it Tom, Honda or Doohan/Rossi?

You made a case for MV being so good due to Ago, doesn't the same principle apply for Honda? Are they only the best when 'you' decide what facts you want to focus on?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Apr 1 2008, 07:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe if you read it again it may make a little more sense to you:


Don't you find it interesting that Honda dominated with Doohan/Rossi, but as soon as Rossi jumped on a Yamaha, all of a sudden they won a few titles? So which is it Tom, Honda or Doohan/Rossi?

You made a case for MV being so good due to Ago, doesn't the same principle apply for Honda? Are they only the best when 'you' decide what facts you want to focus on?

I only mentioned Ago because J4rno reffered to Hailwood when talking about hondas lack of success at 500cc racing in the 60's and i was just pointing out that both top teams had exceptional riders. I think the rider makes the difference in bike racing, which is why it is important for a team to offer the best package possible so the best riders will come to them and help develop their bike. Honda have succeeded in this, they have had more winning riders than other teams and that has only made their bikes stronger still.

Ive always had a huge admiration for HRC, they have made some of the most iconic competition bikes ever: the NSRs, RCs, RVFs, NXR Rallye Raid bikes, RTL trials bikes, CR crossers, RS flat trackers, need I go on?

However, there is always a satisfaction of one of the others kicking Honda's arse, and to be honest, sometimes one of the manufacturers hits the spot, and just fires you up, Sheene's RG, Wayne's YZR, Lil John's Cagiva, Doohan's Honda, Rossi's Yams.... you just get drawn in to them, want them to win....

To sum up, it makes no sense, but sometimes the bike and rider combo makes you wanna follow them. God know why. Its racing, it's irrational, and I ...... luv it!

Pete

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Traverser @ Apr 1 2008, 06:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You ROCK!!!

Almost... Actually I forgot that 2000 was actually won by Roberts Jr. on Suzuki

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Apr 1 2008, 06:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Suzuki. Small company with excellent products. Technically innovative and successful. You can say their motogp machines are not the top of the heap but they finished well enough last year to be more than an also ran. My problem with them is that they don't concentrate enough on the motogp series and achieve what everyone knows is possible for them.
Exactly why I dislike Suzuki. If they would put more time and effort into their MotoGP program they could be winning races with riders like Capirossi and Vermeulen.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 1 2008, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I only mentioned Ago because J4rno reffered to Hailwood when talking about hondas lack of success at 500cc racing in the 60's and i was just pointing out that both top teams had exceptional riders. I think the rider makes the difference in bike racing, which is why it is important for a team to offer the best package possible so the best riders will come to them and help develop their bike. Honda have succeeded in this, they have had more winning riders than other teams and that has only made their bikes stronger still.

Hailwood won 4 consecutive titles with MV in 500, then he switched to Honda and never won it again even if he was widely considered the best rider around. It was then Agostini's turn to win on the MV. Ago collected many championships then switched from MV to Yamaha in 1973 but lost the title for 2 consecutive years to Phil Read who was riding 'his' MV. I think MV can also be given some credit for all those championships...

Most of MV's 500cc were won against a bunch of privateers running single cylinder Norton's and crap like that, those titles are almost worthless, heck 500cc wasn't even the premier class in the 60's.

I don't like Honda, but truth is that they are the dominating force in GPs. They've always been when they were present.

And this is magnified by the fact their superiority in the last 15 years has been abysmal.