Vinales who?

Holypuck · Jun 19, 2018

To any Vinales fan: sorry for the bitter thread title.

But this is what I am actually wondering. Yes, Yamaha is not doing great, yes after all Maverick is 3rd in the championship, yes, he won (and not once) yes, he scored podiums...

But who is Vinales? An insane talent (as I believe) limited by the current shape of the Yamaha? A really good rider who is not the phenom that he seemed to be in 2016/beginning of 2017?

His statements are more up&down than my girlfriend's mood when I ask her where we should go eating. One day he says he can win, the next day he says the bike is .... and that he feels miserable. All this happened also in 2017 but he still re-signed with Yamaha before the season even started. He has even been rumored to have tried to go back to Suzuki a few weeks ago.

I can't figure this guy out at all. I only know that watching him being 10th or 11th feels WRONG.

What do you think boyz?

synn · Jun 19, 2018

He’s a younger Dovi.

Jakrap · Jun 19, 2018

Holypuck said:
To any Vinales fan: sorry for the bitter thread title.

But this is what I am actually wondering. Yes, Yamaha is not doing great, yes after all Maverick is 3rd in the championship, yes, he won (and not once) yes, he scored podiums...

But who is Vinales? An insane talent (as I believe) limited by the current shape of the Yamaha? A really good rider who is not the phenom that he seemed to be in 2016/beginning of 2017?

His statements are more up&down than my girlfriend's mood when I ask her where we should go eating. One day he says he can win, the next day he says the bike is .... and that he feels miserable. All this happened also in 2017 but he still re-signed with Yamaha before the season even started. He has even been rumored to have tried to go back to Suzuki a few weeks ago.

I can't figure this guy out at all. I only know that watching him being 10th or 11th feels WRONG.

What do you think boyz?

Think Vinalez has a problem with Dunlop rubber

When there is no Dunlop rubber on the track, he is fast.

McZee · Jun 19, 2018

The guy is clearly really quick when the stars align, but outside of that, give him a shred of adversity and he just doesn't seem to be able to adapt around, or solve any problems.

Spygoat · Jun 19, 2018

McZee said:
The guy is clearly really quick when the stars align, but outside of that, give him a shred of adversity and he just doesn't seem to be able to adapt around, or solve any problems.

Exactly. I believe he gives up too easily.

MichaelBolton · Jun 19, 2018

He's like a clueless Lorenzo, in the sense that he's incredibly fast when the conditions are right for him, but unlike Jorge he has no idea of the type of bike he wants or what the issues are. And since he doesn't have JL's prestige, he looks like a whiny .... right now. Personally I think a rider that doesn't know what's wrong is of little worth. Maybe he needs a miracle chief mechanic ala Burgess or be paired with better development rider than Rossi. Perhaps a JL/MV pairing would work wonders but no chance now. Also I think he renewed his contract early because he feared Zarco would take his place.

synn · Jun 19, 2018

Well, at least he will keep that seat warm for Bagnaia or Morbidelli in 2021!

McZee · Jun 19, 2018

synn said:
Well, at least he will keep that seat warm for Bagnaia or Morbidelli in 2021!

Yeah, I know it's a long way off, but it will be interesting to see who the latest 'hot property' is in a year or two. Man, it could even be Jorge Martin by then.

Barbedwirebikerr · Jun 19, 2018

Vinales really is struggling with set up lately. Cannot find his happy medium.. Should take some steps to get a new crew chief, I've read often that Mav has requested big setting changes that his chief has been reluctant to do. He's obviously talented, just not overly adaptable as others like Marquez and Rossi.

povol · Jun 19, 2018

Barbedwirebikerr said:
Vinales really is struggling with set up lately. Cannot find his happy medium.. Should take some steps to get a new crew chief, I've read often that Mav has requested big setting changes that his chief has been reluctant to do. He's obviously talented, just not overly adaptable as others like Marquez and Rossi.

I remember a few years back, it was guaranteed the Pedrosa would get the hole shot if he was anywhere on the the first two rows, then would fade in the second half of the race. It was all in the setup and when they changed it around, his starts suffered and he was nowhere and then he would come strong the second half of the race. They never were able to find the happy medium for him.

RCV600RR · Jun 19, 2018

The kid's really talented. He was super fast on the Suzuki, and impossibly fast on the M1 until the front tyre change.

His difficulty seems to be that he falls into a downward spiral of confidence when results don't go his way. I think a return to Suzuki may not be a bad thing for him.

Iamapony · Jun 19, 2018

I just think he has always been overrated, like Rins and others that I am willing to mention as 2nd tier riders. Look at Iannone (Iamapony) on the Suzuki. Pretty damn good, and that shows that the bike might have been better than people gave it credit for with Vinales as jockey. Poor Suzuki can't afford to wean a Marquez like Repsol, and I think they are wasting their money on Mir. I hope that I am wrong, but I don't think he is MotoGP material, YET.

robains · Jun 19, 2018

I was about to write Lorenzo off to Moto 2, but look what happened.

I think too many feel "it's all in the rider" ... it's never that way in any form of racing, it really is the entire team that wins or loses.

Maverick is fast, he's put in some good qualifying laps. His biggest issues are full fuel loads and starts .. he's struggling with those and once you start behind in MotoGP it's very hard to move forward especially on a bike that's missing a good electronics/sensor/calibration package. I think Rossi has found a little more pace than Maverick by taking a lesson from Zarco and using the electronics "less".

You also have to consider race time, it's usually the hottest part of the day which as we know Yamaha seem to be suffering considerably when it's HOT. Lets see if Yamaha can solve their electronics package for 2019 or hope for cooler race days. Yamaha have been very fast in the early morning sessions from track to track, but as soon as the day heats up they fall back down the order.

As you can see from Lorenzo's results, it doesn't take much of change to drastically improve how a rider feels on the bike. Maverick is perhaps missing the wealth of setup knowledge that Rossi and crew have and we all know Rossi focuses primarily on race setup, understanding the tire, and making the best tire choice.

IMHO, Yamaha are going thru the motions this season and I'll be very surprised if Rossi/Maverick don't get passed by Lorenzo and/or Dovi later in the season for championship ... heck, I'd never write off Lorenzo for winning the championship ... he just needs to bait Marquez into another crash and Lorenzo will be a viable threat.

I still think Honda have the all around best package track to track, then Ducati, then Yamaha.

I'm curious as to what happened to Zarco? Is the same Yamaha heat and tire problem?

Rob.

Iamapony · Jun 19, 2018

The ONLY reason that Vinales is third in the points is because the point system SUCKS! There is only one point difference between positions once you get passed fourth. The system rewards the mediocre, not the adventurous, willing to take risk to win races, as pointed out here about Rossi, more than once. Rossi AND PARTICULARLY Vinales have not threatened in a race, except for Rossi's pole. There is no way Vinales should be third in my opinion.

A (still fast) chump that finishes fourth in two races will win over someone that wins a race, but crashes the second race. That makes no sense to me. You should get bigger rewards at the sharp end of the stick. Lorenzo won a championship by finishing second. Don't believe me? Look it up. If you doubled the points, and made the difference between the top ten places wider, you would get a better idea of who is really fastest. The way it is now, the cautious are the winners. This ain't knitting, Harriet.,

michaelm · Jun 19, 2018

Iamapony said:
The ONLY reason that Vinales is third in the points is because the point system SUCKS! There is only one point difference between positions once you get passed fourth. The system rewards the mediocre, not the adventurous, willing to take risk to win races, as pointed out here about Rossi, more than once. Rossi AND PARTICULARLY Vinales have not threatened in a race, except for Rossi's pole. There is no way Vinales should be third in my opinion.

A (still fast) chump that finishes fourth in two races will win over someone that wins a race, but crashes the second race. That makes no sense to me. You should get bigger rewards at the sharp end of the stick. Lorenzo won a championship by finishing second. Don't believe me? Look it up. If you doubled the points, and made the difference between the top ten places wider, you would get a better idea of who is really fastest. The way it is now, the cautious are the winners. This ain't knitting, Harriet.,

I agree in principle, but if you are talking about 2012 Jorge won races early and had a big points lead then rode for the championship while Dani had his largest number of wins in a season by far. Jorge when the championship was sealed crashed out of the last race trying to win. In one way it reinforces your argument, that riding for the points under the current system was the sensible thing to do once he had a signifcant lead, but he got the lead by winning races.

RCV600RR · Jun 19, 2018

robains said:
I was about to write Lorenzo off to Moto 2, but look what happened.

I think too many feel "it's all in the rider" ... it's never that way in any form of racing, it really is the entire team that wins or loses.

Maverick is fast, he's put in some good qualifying laps. His biggest issues are full fuel loads and starts .. he's struggling with those and once you start behind in MotoGP it's very hard to move forward especially on a bike that's missing a good electronics/sensor/calibration package. I think Rossi has found a little more pace than Maverick by taking a lesson from Zarco and using the electronics "less".

You also have to consider race time, it's usually the hottest part of the day which as we know Yamaha seem to be suffering considerably when it's HOT. Lets see if Yamaha can solve their electronics package for 2019 or hope for cooler race days. Yamaha have been very fast in the early morning sessions from track to track, but as soon as the day heats up they fall back down the order.

As you can see from Lorenzo's results, it doesn't take much of change to drastically improve how a rider feels on the bike. Maverick is perhaps missing the wealth of setup knowledge that Rossi and crew have and we all know Rossi focuses primarily on race setup, understanding the tire, and making the best tire choice.

IMHO, Yamaha are going thru the motions this season and I'll be very surprised if Rossi/Maverick don't get passed by Lorenzo and/or Dovi later in the season for championship ... heck, I'd never write off Lorenzo for winning the championship ... he just needs to bait Marquez into another crash and Lorenzo will be a viable threat.

I still think Honda have the all around best package track to track, then Ducati, then Yamaha.

I'm curious as to what happened to Zarco? Is the same Yamaha heat and tire problem?

Rob.

Good post. It's a team sport - often overlooked here.

McZee · Jun 19, 2018

robains said:
I

You also have to consider race time, it's usually the hottest part of the day which as we know Yamaha seem to be suffering considerably when it's HOT. Lets see if Yamaha can solve their electronics package for 2019 or hope for cooler race days. Yamaha have been very fast in the early morning sessions from track to track, but as soon as the day heats up they fall back down the order.

I'm curious as to what happened to Zarco? Is the same Yamaha heat and tire problem?

Rob.

Good post, mate. Yes, the heat really does seem to be a problem for Yam' at the moment. They ran really well in the Barcelona tests a couple of weeks ago, in fact Mav was quickest, then come race day, it's 10 or 12 degrees C hotter and he just can't get it to work.

I know this is a thread about Mav', but you raise a really good question in Zarco. Everyone has be so bowled over by Jorge that the drop off in Zarco's performance seems to have gone unnoticed.
If I had to take a punt on it, then I'd say he is suffering with this latest batch of tires, like almost everyone else (except Horhay).

For me, the point of commonality amongst all of this craziness is the rubber. The current batch to come out of Michelin is based, (I believe, but I am open to correction) on the recent tests. Could it be that Michelin tried to make the perfect tire for the test conditions and in doing so created a tire with a working window outside the track parameters that we have had in the last couple of races?

synn · Jun 20, 2018

Zarco’s drop is nothing special. At the start of the season, several satellite riders have done well (Although not as well as Zarco, I will admit), but as the season progresses and the factory teams make incremental updates, they get pushed backward.

Happened to Alvaro Bautista and Hector Barbera a couple of years ago as well.

McZee · Jun 20, 2018

synn said:
Zarco’s drop is nothing special. At the start of the season, several satellite riders have done well (Although not as well as Zarco, I will admit), but as the season progresses and the factory teams make incremental updates, they get pushed backward.

Happened to Alvaro Bautista and Hector Barbera a couple of years ago as well.

True, although Zarco was a beast at PI last year.

Jumkie · Jun 20, 2018

A drop in satellite performance is characteristically gradual, not the dramatic cliff drop that has happened to Zarco which 'coincidentally' coincided with a Michelin change that equally but in reverse improved Lorenzo's performance (not a Yamaha) improved Rossi's from midpack to podium (a Yamaha) and detrimental to Viñalez (a Yamaha) and detrimental to Dovi (not a Yamaha ) and detrimental to Marc continuing to demolish the field (not a Yamaha ). No way can we conclude Zarco's drop in form is a normal corollary to factory Yamaha development, add to that no actual improvement has been reported by their factory riders.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

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Vinales who?

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