VDS: Yamaha or Suzuki?

JohnnyKnockdown · Apr 27, 2018

Jumkie said:
That's an interesting picture JP. Not sure who appears more honored to meet who. Both look like they just met one of their idols. The guy next to Senna, his expression is definitely one of starstruck.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Reminds me of something similar that happened 06 Laguna.
Pedrosa was a rookie and was sitting on stage behind a table doing signings. They introduced one of the legends, my memory is shot, but I think it was Eddie or Freddie because they were both there. Pedrosa stopped abruptly looked over, and immediately had that same star struck expression the guy in the picture has. Im assume they had never met before by his reaction. I was very surprised to see that and thought it was so cool that he was a fan,just like all of us

Edited to add that the haze of time has dissipated and it was definitely Freddie not Eddie. The signing was taking place in the Honda tent

Jumkie · Apr 27, 2018

JohnnyKnockdown said:
Reminds me of something similar that happened 06 Laguna.
Pedrosa was a rookie and was sitting on stage behind a table doing signings. They introduced one of the legends, my memory is shot, but I think it was Eddie or Freddie because they were both there. Pedrosa stopped abruptly looked over, and immediately had that same star struck expression the guy in the picture has. Im assume they had never met before by his reaction. I was very surprised to see that and thought it was so cool that he was a fan,just like all of us

Edited to add that the haze of time has dissipated and it was definitely Freddie not Eddie. The signing was taking place in the Honda tent

Your memory is indeed hazzy, they said "Jumkie" not Eddie or Freddie, and Pedrosa jumped up to meet me. He even signed my hat that said, "Dani Te Amo". He was so stoked.

michaelm · Apr 27, 2018

JohnnyKnockdown said:
I think a lot of people get the wrong impression about Suzuki’s involvement in GP.
Suzuki’s market share compared to Honda and Yamaha is much much smaller and they don’t have the backing of a huge industry behind them, like the others.
They’ve never really been forthcoming about their GP commitment, but I suspect it’s more for the R&D. As evidenced by modern gixxers the GP tech definitely trickles down quicker into the roadbikes.
People think their just a rider away but notice their primarily a stepping stone for young talent.
The veterans seem to know this and is probably why none of them take the leap. It’s a shame since they are a bit of a personal preference for me and also their storied history.
Please, no more Rizla baby blue though

Sure, they have long been at the forefront of performance road bikes, I am, fortunately or unfortunately, old enough to remember the stir which the first 1100cc Suzuki Katana caused in Australia when I was a teenager.

I think the storied history comes into it as well though, and the point of my earlier post was that the Japanese factories seem to have an ethos that you have to race if you are serious as a bike manufacturer, which I applaud as I said. Even Kawasaki who found motogp too rich for their blood have turned their efforts to WSBK.

synn · Apr 27, 2018

Agreed. Honda and Yamaha stuck through during the last financial crisis. Suzuki and Kawasaki didn’t.

That’s the real long term security issue here.

Arrabbiata1 · Apr 28, 2018

synn said:
Agreed. Honda and Yamaha stuck through during the last financial crisis. Suzuki and Kawasaki didn’t.

That’s the real long term security issue here.

I don't think Kawasaki were ever in it for the long term and their outlay and commitment to the project was questionable not wishing to commit anything remotely near the investment level to be competitive. We tend to recall the sound of the Aprila Cube with affection but the ZX-RR screamer was evil - particularly in 2003.

Favourite moment - OJ's wet weather wild card at Shanghai or Nakano's podium at Motegi. I always thought the project was doomed the moment they signed the ill-fated and hapless Akira Yanagawa alongside Andrew Pitt.Then there was the Hopper debacle.

I always felt that Suzuki's troubles started after winning the title. They invested little in the RGV500 and Junior (massively underrated imo) was on a hiding to nothing in his title defence. The problems with the GSV-R stemmed from failing to develop the chassis around the new tyres in retaining the old gamma frame/tyre spec and the shift from Dunlop to Michelin to Stones didn't help, with the bike always lagging behind - and another formula change in 2007 initially wasn't timely either. As I remember, it hated long turns. No question that the economic downturn was a factor in their departure but it seemed to me at the time it was a timely pretext to step out for a while and take stock. Neither Kawasaki or Suzuki allocated a significant race budget to their efforts in the 2000s - the standing joke in the paddock was if that you could fit the Suzuki race engineers from Japan in one hire car - and if it ever crashed en-route to the circuit it risked wiping our their entire racing R&D department.

michaelm · Apr 28, 2018

Arrabbiata1 said:
I don't think Kawasaki were ever in it for the long term and their outlay and commitment to the project was questionable not wishing to commit anything remotely near the investment level to be competitive. We tend to recall the sound of the Aprila Cube with affection but the ZX-RR screamer was evil - particularly in 2003.

Favourite moment - OJ's wet weather wild card at Shanghai or Nakano's podium at Motegi. I always thought the project was doomed the moment they signed the ill-fated and hapless Akira Yanagawa alongside Andrew Pitt.Then there was the Hopper debacle.

I always felt that Suzuki's troubles started after winning the title. They invested little in the RGV500 and Junior (massively underrated imo) was on a hiding to nothing in his title defence. The problems with the GSV-R stemmed from failing to develop the chassis around the new tyres in retaining the old gamma frame/tyre spec and the shift from Dunlop to Michelin to Stones didn't help, with the bike always lagging behind - and another formula change in 2007 initially wasn't timely either. As I remember, it hated long turns. No question that the economic downturn was a factor in their departure but it seemed to me at the time it was a timely pretext to step out for a while and take stock. Neither Kawasaki or Suzuki allocated a significant race budget to their efforts in the 2000s - the standing joke in the paddock was if that you could fit the Suzuki race engineers from Japan in one hire car - and if it ever crashed en-route to the circuit it risked wiping our their entire racing R&D department.

Agree about KRJR, one of the most meritorious title wins ever, and he went very close to winning a gp race on a KR bike.

Arrabbiata1 · Apr 28, 2018

michaelm said:
Agree about KRJR, one of the most meritorious title wins ever, and he went very close to winning a race on a KR3.

He was impressive that season on his Dad's chassis housing a V5 mill. Less so at Sachsenring when he took out Tamada, but that Estoril race was his swan song. Good to see him with his Dad at the last round. I fear for the estranged Kurtis though - I haven't heard anything about his whereabouts since the court case two years back.

michaelm · Apr 28, 2018

Arrabbiata1 said:
He was impressive that season on his Dad's chassis housing a V5 mill. Less so at Sachsenring when he took out Tamada, but that Estoril race was his swan song. Good to see him with his Dad at the last round. I fear for the estranged Kurtis though - I haven't heard anything about his whereabouts since the court case two years back.

I did mean the KR bike with the Honda engine and realised my mistake before your post. He really should have won that race.

Mick D · Apr 28, 2018

Arrabbiata1 said:
He was impressive that season on his Dad's chassis housing a V5 mill. Less so at Sachsenring when he took out Tamada, but that Estoril race was his swan song. Good to see him with his Dad at the last round. I fear for the estranged Kurtis though - I haven't heard anything about his whereabouts since the court case two years back.

Families, eh?

McZee · Apr 28, 2018

Arrabbiata1 said:
Favourite moment - OJ's wet weather wild card at Shanghai or Nakano's podium at Motegi. I always thought the project was doomed the moment they signed the ill-fated and hapless Akira Yanagawa alongside Andrew Pitt.Then there was the Hopper debacle.
.

My favourite moment was Gary McCoy lighting up the back tyre, (I know that that doesn't exactly narrow it down) on the Kwak.
Fair play to Kawasaki though, they put their investment into WSBK and are reaping the benefits.

Arrabbiata1 · Apr 28, 2018

McZee said:
My favourite moment was Gary McCoy lighting up the back tyre, (I know that that doesn't exactly narrow it down) on the Kwak.
Fair play to Kawasaki though, they put their investment into WSBK and are reaping the benefits.

For me McCoy introducing the 16.5 profile into the paddock on the WCM YZR was one of the most entertaining things I have ever witnessed in this sport - (all too quickly his advantage was nullified by taming and compromising the tyre for the rest of the field). Personally, I much preferred to see the lab rat smoke a two stroke.

Mick D · Apr 28, 2018

Arrabbiata1 said:
Personally, I much preferred to see the lab rat smoke a two stroke.

Lab rat smoke a two stroke.

Pure gold.

michaelm · Apr 28, 2018

Arrabbiata1 said:
For me McCoy introducing the 16.5 profile into the paddock on the WCM YZR was one of the most entertaining things I have ever witnessed in this sport - (all too quickly his advantage was nullified by taming and compromising the tyre for the rest of the field). Personally, I much preferred to see the lab rat smoke a two stroke.

As I recall Valentino agreed with you.

Three 500 gp wins on a WCM Yamaha was rather outstanding as well.

Arrabbiata1 · Apr 28, 2018

michaelm said:
As I recall Valentino agreed with you.

Three 500 gp wins on a WCM Yamaha was rather outstanding as well.

He most certainly did having had the privilege of following McCoy and sitting back and enjoying the show. To be fair to Valentino, he was one of the few that could adapt and make the original McCoy spec tyre really work. The others clamoured for the 16.5 it when he started winning races - Abe won on it too. In fairness the half inch debate pre-dated Garry McCoy. I should really have attributed him for "re-intorducing the 16.5". It was frequently Doohan's preferred weapon of choice as I remember and it also suited the gung-ho style of Schwantz although KRjnr for example - himself hardly averse to a "loose rear end" always maintained that the better hook up of 17" out of the corner was the fastest way around a circuit.

McCoy's genius was to deploy it to such devastating effect to enhance his speedway pedigree and his mid corner speed. Many couldn't ride it because the lighter grippier rear pushed the front causing chatter and understeer. I may be wrong, but I'm sure that the extreme triangular profile or something that McCoy preferred was compromised to cater for the rest of the field and the 16.5 profile that Schwantz, Doohan, McCoy, Abe and Rossi all previously mastered was more user friendly by 2001. Gaz will know more than me on this.

synn · Apr 28, 2018

Arrabbiata1 said:
I don't think Kawasaki were ever in it for the long term and their outlay and commitment to the project was questionable not wishing to commit anything remotely near the investment level to be competitive. We tend to recall the sound of the Aprila Cube with affection but the ZX-RR screamer was evil - particularly in 2003.

Favourite moment - OJ's wet weather wild card at Shanghai or Nakano's podium at Motegi. I always thought the project was doomed the moment they signed the ill-fated and hapless Akira Yanagawa alongside Andrew Pitt.Then there was the Hopper debacle.

I always felt that Suzuki's troubles started after winning the title. They invested little in the RGV500 and Junior (massively underrated imo) was on a hiding to nothing in his title defence. The problems with the GSV-R stemmed from failing to develop the chassis around the new tyres in retaining the old gamma frame/tyre spec and the shift from Dunlop to Michelin to Stones didn't help, with the bike always lagging behind - and another formula change in 2007 initially wasn't timely either. As I remember, it hated long turns. No question that the economic downturn was a factor in their departure but it seemed to me at the time it was a timely pretext to step out for a while and take stock. Neither Kawasaki or Suzuki allocated a significant race budget to their efforts in the 2000s - the standing joke in the paddock was if that you could fit the Suzuki race engineers from Japan in one hire car - and if it ever crashed en-route to the circuit it risked wiping our their entire racing R&D department.

Had to rewatch this clip again.
What a fine looking and sounding machine the ZX-RR was!
It was a mini F1 car at full chat.

Jumkie · Apr 28, 2018

McZee said:
Fair play to Kawasaki though, they put their investment into WSBK and are reaping the benefits.

For investment marketing dollar to return, absolutely. I walk in to my local motorcycle dealer and there is always a big cardboard cut out impressively greeting you at the door, and others strategically placed throughout the showroom floor: "KAWASAKI WORLD CHAMPIONS 2017, 2016, 2015...." Jonny Rea on a victory wheelie. How many people walking through those doors do you think know the difference between GP and Wsbk? In America.

If you live in a glass house don't throw rocks.

Theo · Apr 29, 2018

JPSLotus said:
Yes I am sure.

1986 Australian Grand Prix. Team Lotus was getting Honda engines for 1987, and Soichiro Honda was a HUGE fan of Senna.

Yes of that I am certain but so was Kawamoto.

Holypuck · May 17, 2018

If I were the team owner I'd sign with Suzuki, which almost happened, but VDS will apparently sign with Yamaha

McZee · May 17, 2018

Holypuck said:
If I were the team owner I'd sign with Suzuki, which almost happened, but VDS will apparently sign with Yamaha

But let's be honest, if you had to base your decision on results, the satellite Yam' is doing pretty good. (I would put some wink emoji in here, but unfortunately I am too manly).
Wink.

p4p1 · May 18, 2018

McZee said:
But let's be honest, if you had to base your decision on results, the satellite Yam' is doing pretty good. (I would put some wink emoji in here, but unfortunately I am too manly).
Wink.

The issue comes if I am the team owner that I am likely to lose my bikes in 2 years. However I understand trepidation over signing with Suzuki given their history in the premier class.

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VDS: Yamaha or Suzuki?

JohnnyKnockdown

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michaelm

synn

Arrabbiata1

michaelm

Arrabbiata1

michaelm

Mick D

McZee

Arrabbiata1

Mick D

michaelm

Arrabbiata1

synn

Jumkie

Theo

Holypuck

McZee

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