Valentino Rossi

Before i get a kicking have a think.



He is making the Ducati look worse than it is and here is why.



We are watching a legend in decline and i dont believe his results on a Yamaha or Honda will be massively better,i remember the days when he got a ten second penelty and still won by a mile or could toy with Gibbers and then dissapear but with zillions in the bank and a life style to die for i dont believe the motivation is still there,watching the king post a quick time being towed by Pedro and Nicky's pace yesterday shows the Ducati works ok. Ive been watching GP for over thirty years and we have seen this many times,i remember Randy Mamola's last years and they were very similar he could get a good time on the Cagiva with a tow or in the wet were his experience shone through as does Rossi and like the current situation the Cagiva was blamed but Randy got a factory Yamaha and Bud sponsership and nothing changed but Lawson and Kozinski got on the Cagiva and won,it has been awsome to have watched Rossi at the peek of his powers and i think he is the best ever but its over,maybe a win and a few podiums on another bike but not another title,as a foot note if Cal jumps on the Ducati we will see some fireworks.

I think the race you on about was either 03 or 05 Philip island where he got a 10 sec pen and still won by 13 secs We still see run away races like this from stoner or lorenzo and i personally believe rossi is still capable of running at the front and some run away races on occasion. I don't think the doctor is past it yet but only time will tell i guess.

When i look at riders who i think have the quality to be multi champs one of the things i look for is how they come back from injury. When Lorenzo got injured he came back even faster and this said to me he was a champ of the future. Rossi escaped injury apart from a broken wrist at assen for most of his career. Then he had a nasty fracture in his leg. Did this take the shine off him, or is it all bike related ??

I dont think it is all bike related Chopper as he is often out qualified and beaten by lesser riders on the same or lesser version of his bike so its the rider,Rossi's stats say that on the same bike he should be head and shoulders above anyone on a Ducati but he isnt and that is down to the rider and his mental attitude to the job,someone posted else where that for Moto gp to move on they need to embrace new talent and stop riding the Rossi gravy train and i agree,im also a boxing fan and this is like people throwing money at there old hero every time he makes a comeback on the off chance he can do it once again.I have not been a great fan of Stoner and i dont know why really as he is a fantastic talent and worthy champion but what has put him above all at the moment in my oppinion is the massive show of integerity he has shown over his retirement, he said i dont agree so im off,he is still competative and sought after but will not do it just for cash and that has to be respected.

thedeal said:

I dont think it is all bike related Chopper as he is often out qualified and beaten by lesser riders on the same or lesser version of his bike so its the rider,Rossi's stats say that on the same bike he should be head and shoulders above anyone on a Ducati but he isnt and that is down to the rider and his mental attitude to the job,someone posted else where that for Moto gp to move on they need to embrace new talent and stop riding the Rossi gravy train and i agree,im also a boxing fan and this is like people throwing money at there old hero every time he makes a comeback on the off chance he can do it once again.I have not been a great fan of Stoner and i dont know why really as he is a fantastic talent and worthy champion but what has put him above all at the moment in my oppinion is the massive show of integerity he has shown over his retirement, he said i dont agree so im off,he is still competative and sought after but will not do it just for cash and that has to be respected.

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Out qualified, maybe, out raced though? He's still the fastest Ducati in the overall and when he has a bike that works and inspires confidence he puts up a fight - Le Mans anyone?



Anyway, it seems like the Rossi-Ducati relationship will be coming to an end, according to Gpone....

thedeal said:

I dont think it is all bike related Chopper as he is often out qualified and beaten by lesser riders on the same or lesser version of his bike so its the rider,Rossi's stats say that on the same bike he should be head and shoulders above anyone on a Ducati but he isnt and that is down to the rider and his mental attitude to the job,someone posted else where that for Moto gp to move on they need to embrace new talent and stop riding the Rossi gravy train and i agree,im also a boxing fan and this is like people throwing money at there old hero every time he makes a comeback on the off chance he can do it once again.I have not been a great fan of Stoner and i dont know why really as he is a fantastic talent and worthy champion but what has put him above all at the moment in my oppinion is the massive show of integerity he has shown over his retirement, he said i dont agree so im off,he is still competative and sought after but will not do it just for cash and that has to be respected.

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I understand what you're saying but remember 2009 his last season on yam before joining Ducati he left yamaha the world champion. He gained 2 world championships after stoner 07 title and back then many had stated he was past it.

Maybe he is now but i dont think so. I think there are so many variables with bikes,riders and bike riding styles to write him off solely on his last two years at ducati.

Dispite what the haters say, he did have good competition in the day with the likes of Biaggi, gibbers ect. It was just a shame Kato died as i think he would have given rossi a right hard time.

I think he will find it harder now to win it all with Lorenzo about. He is not so easily spooked like Biaggi, gibbers and stoner.

I dont think he is done, i just think he has no confidence on that Duc. He is in great shape, no injuries, and when he has good feeling we see the "old" rossi come out. Get him on a bike that he can feel and predict and I think we will see different results. Will he be world champ again? Who knows

Ngads said:

I dont think he is done, i just think he has no confidence on that Duc. He is in great shape, no injuries, and when he has good feeling we see the "old" rossi come out. Get him on a bike that he can feel and predict and I think we will see different results. Will he be world champ again? Who knows

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BTW - wtf is that Darth Vaderish thing where your face should be in the photo?

chopperman said:

I understand what you're saying but remember 2009 his last season on yam before joining Ducati he left yamaha the world champion. He gained 2 world championships after stoner 07 title and back then many had stated he was past it.

Maybe he is now but i dont think so. I think there are so many variables with bikes,riders and bike riding styles to write him off solely on his last two years at ducati.

Dispite what the haters say, he did have good competition in the day with the likes of Biaggi, gibbers ect. It was just a shame Kato died as i think he would have given rossi a right hard time.

I think he will find it harder now to win it all with Lorenzo about. He is not so easily spooked like Biaggi, gibbers and stoner.

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A very intelligent answer chopper but the nine times world champ with the best development skills should not be out qualified by Hector or beaten by his one title team mate and then made to look very slow by a one legged B team rider starting from the back of the grid.As ive said im far from a Rossi hater in fact hes the best ive ever seen but its over.

Rossi still has plenty of talent, health, and motivation, the caveat of motivation extends to when placed in a wining situation. Again people taking results at face value as usual. Rossi hasn't suddenly lost talent at Ducati, but certainly his confidence and some motivation has been drained over his stint. This is the power and consequence of not being on the best everything, which up until his switch to Ducati has been the reality for VR's MotoGP experience. Rossi enjoyed having superior bikes and especially superior tires to his competitors for many years, this is a FACT that can NOT be understated! I've argued this point for a long time, he is no better or worse than the top 5 riders in the world (including his teammate), where Rossi may be superior to them is in racecraft aggression, BUT only if the bike will allow for it. Nobody could imagine now Rossi forcing Stoner off line at the corkscrew because his confidence on the Ducati would never allow him this luxury today. Put Lorenzo and Pedro on a Ducati tomorrow and they'd suddenly look like .... despite people convinced recently Lorenzo is as good "talent wise" as Stoner or has a superior bike to the RCV. Put them on a 2nd tier bike like a Ducati for an extended period of time, and you'd have Pedro crying, perhaps putting on a lame pretend conversation with his dad "mentor" Puig in some comic Spanish show fielding questions designed to talk .... about Ducati (which apparently they loved considering their main priority is to keep the man while putting their mouth shut, head down, teammate who for all intents and purposes has matched VR on the waiting list behind Rossi and Crutchlow). Lorenzo might fair a bit better in the staged antics department if he would have accepted the 15 million, but not by much.



That is the result of divas being put in a situation that is less than perfect. All the 4 "aliens" (still a ........ lazy term) have only experienced (with the exception of Stoner) being number one on a top factory team where the team makes it clear you are their priority, hope and desire. Never being second fiddle, imagine the confidence that kind of treatment offers the mind of that rider, not to mention always one of the two best brands in the series. Up until Rossi's ill fate move to Ducati (which was a direct consequence of refusing to be a co-#1, yeah that is right, not even a #2, but an equal #1) only one other of the supposed "aliens" has proved to deal with adversity, that is Casey (love him or hate him, that is the truth) and now Rossi (who really hasn't dealt with the adversity to great considering he has talked .... about the company openly and is now looking to get bailed out). Notwithstanding, nowCasey is dealing with a personally created distraction in deciding to leave the sport (no judgment about his decision but is nonetheless a distraction) and has deal with it by placing the blame on the tire direction. But getting back to Rossi, the sport doesn't punish the divas for their own bad decision, to the contrary, it bails them out thanks to the leadership. If Rossi gets on a factory spec Japanese bike (looking likely), expect him to be dicing with the leaders. How could he not, there are only a few competitive bikes in the series with a bunch of CRTs and Ducati filler to trick the spectators into thinking its a proper championship.

thedeal said:

A very intelligent answer chopper but the nine times world champ with the best development skills should not be out qualified by Hector or beaten by his one title team mate and then made to look very slow by a one legged B team rider starting from the back of the grid.As ive said im far from a Rossi hater in fact hes the best ive ever seen but its over.

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I know your not a hater mate, in fact i enjoy reading your posts even if im not agreeing. You offer up a good debate.

What you have said above is on the lips of many race fans and rossi fans. How can the great Rossi get handed his ... by so called lesser riders on lesser bikes, then to mind .... us all he will come good (le mans). He is not in his prime for sure but i feel he still has plenty to offer. I think if he went back to honda or yam he would be up there fighting for a championship with lorenzo. It would be nice to see him go out champ but i think the younger Lorenzo has the edge now. I'm hoping he stays at ducati with jb and gets the duc to a podium bike before retiring. I personally will consider that leaving at the top of his game.

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Quote Jumkie,,, Again people taking results at face value as usual.[/font]





[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]No not at all,30+ years of watching GP legends get to the top and then get old, face facts Rossi isnt imortal he has a bunch of cash and a good life style he had a big injury and then the very tragic Marco incident, im not knocking him i just think its that time of life.[/font]



[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Quote Jumskie,,, where Rossi may be superior to them is in racecraft aggression, BUT only if the bike will allow for it. Nobody could imagine now Rossi forcing Stoner off line at the corkscrew because his confidence on the Ducati would never allow him this luxury today.[/font]



[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]But you all say that Ducati is a pile and allways has been (just a marketing tool) but Casey got on it and ...... the world over Rossi included and then was still winning races on it when he left,Rossi got on it and coudnt even get it in the top five,funny but he got on the Yamaha that Checa and Biaggi couldnt get in the top five and won the race and title first time out and Yamaha spent a fraction in comparison but that was when Rossi was Younger,so Rossi turned a winning bike into a loosing bike at Ducati Hhhmmmm.[/font]

thedeal said:

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Quote Jumkie,,, Again people taking results at face value as usual.[/font]





[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]No not at all,30+ years of watching GP legends get to the top and then get old, face facts Rossi isnt imortal he has a bunch of cash and a good life style he had a big injury and then the very tragic Marco incident, im not knocking him i just think its that time of life.[/font]



[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Quote Jumskie,,, where Rossi may be superior to them is in racecraft aggression, BUT only if the bike will allow for it. Nobody could imagine now Rossi forcing Stoner off line at the corkscrew because his confidence on the Ducati would never allow him this luxury today.[/font]



[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]But you all say that Ducati is a pile and allways has been (just a marketing tool) but Casey got on it and ...... the world over Rossi included and then was still winning races on it when he left,Rossi got on it and coudnt even get it in the top five,funny but he got on the Yamaha that Checa and Biaggi couldnt get in the top five and won the race and title first time out and Yamaha spent a fraction in comparison but that was when Rossi was Younger,so Rossi turned a winning bike into a loosing bike at Ducati Hhhmmmm.[/font]

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Not trying to de-value Caseys 07 championship but some factors to bear in mind. In 07 while casey rode the wheels off the duc it was plain to see the bike was far from perfect in the twistys. It had a power advantage on the straights and casey seemed to be able to manage its pro and cons to get race wins. It was a formula change to 800's and i think most will agree the other manufactures were caught with their pants down. Come 08 Casey was still winning races but the cons were starting to show because the others had caught up some what.

I also believe caseys style suited that bike far more than any other rider could dream of but it was still far from perfect. Sadly like freddy spencer winning 2 championship in the same season the duc and the team burned Casey out. I think this maybe why it looks like rossi is not trying. I think he is too long in the tooth to let the same destroy him.

chopperman said:

I think the race you on about was either 03 or 05 Philip island where he got a 10 sec pen and still won by 13 secs

We still see run away races like this from stoner or lorenzo and i personally believe rossi is still capable of running at the front and some run away races on occasion. I don't think the doctor is past it yet but only time will tell i guess.

When i look at riders who i think have the quality to be multi champs one of the things i look for is how they come back from injury. When Lorenzo got injured he came back even faster and this said to me he was a champ of the future. Rossi escaped injury apart from a broken wrist at assen for most of his career. Then he had a nasty fracture in his leg. Did this take the shine off him, or is it all bike related ??

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I'd say '03 - because he was definitely still on the RCV211v and having passed under a yellow flag had to beat Capirossi on the Ducati by ten seconds who was leading on the road. I also remember him running off at Catalunya which cost something like 20 seconds surely earlier the same year - I think Loris won the GP but from memory Valentino managed to finish second. He had so much in hand on the Honda most of the time I reckon he was riding at about 80%. The bike was so sorted out of the crate that even in 2002 the crew joked that they used to tinker with the settings in practice out of sheer boredom.



Rog, you have always ridiculed Sete - not just over his dramatics and perceived insincerity (particularly following the tragic death of Kato), but have also never given him too much credit both in respect of his mental fragility and as a talented rider. Biaggi was also renowned for his lack of mental fortitude. Although Sete mounted a reasonable challenge in both 2003 and 2004 to suggest that either he of Biaggi were serious rivals is absurd given both the difference in talent and as Jum mentions the massive comparative advantage favouring Rossi particularly in 2002 and 2003. To also question Sete's sincerity given the level of Valentino's duplicity and disingenuousness is a bit rich.



I really believe that had Gary McCoy been able to use his specified compound in conjunction with the 16.5 tyre in 2001 instead of the entire paddock enforcing a more amenable michelin he may well have been a formidable rival during Valentino's ascent. But then he could never get on the phone to Clermont Ferrand on a Saturday and influence Sunday's rubber in quite the same way.



Nonetheless I regard 2001, 2004, 2008 and 2009 as being Valentino's greatest championship years. Contentiously, I find the nine times champion accolade rather flatters to deceive. (Cue flame throwers).



Vale is definitely not a spent force where most other riders in the same predicament would have destroyed or seriously damaged their careers, and the obscene amounts of Euro's thrown at him alongside ridiculous preferential treatment at Ducati disgusts me.



As Phil suggests, I'd love to see him on a satellite Honda or Yam with a personal sponsor - and to earn the factory assistance very much like 2000/2001 through his results. We need to see Vale fight again on a bike that allows him to do so.

thedeal said:

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]No not at all,30+ years of watching GP legends get to the top and then get old, face facts Rossi isnt imortal he has a bunch of cash and a good life style he had a big injury and then the very tragic Marco incident, im not knocking him i just think its that time of life.

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[/font]



Not saying you are knocking Rossi, but I am saying, with all due respect, you may be mistaken. Rossi was challenging Lorenzo for the title when he broke his leg. After it healed, he again was up there winning. To even bring up that injury today is nonsense in the scope of his performance currently. I have no doubt if he is on a factory backed Yamaha or Honda, he will be at the front. He is older, but not that old. I think you may be underestimating the current state of the championship.

thedeal said:

[font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]But you all say that Ducati is a pile and allways has been (just a marketing tool) but Casey got on it and ...... the world over Rossi included and then was still winning races on it when he left,Rossi got on it and coudnt even get it in the top five,funny but he got on the Yamaha that Checa and Biaggi couldnt get in the top five and won the race and title first time out and Yamaha spent a fraction in comparison but that was when Rossi was Younger,so Rossi turned a winning bike into a loosing bike at Ducati Hhhmmmm.[/font]

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Yes, what I'm saying is, Rossi is less talented than Casey Stoner on the manufacture named Ducati, and quite frankly since 2007. I wish they were on the same machine today, as was the popular opinion that if they were, Rossi would school Casey. The best example of this was when Rossi moved to Ducati. I take my opinion from the fact you just stated, that is Casey won on it, even podiumed the day before Rossi got on the exact same bike and couldn't break into the top five. You can go back and blame his shoulder if you like, but once it healed it was of no consequence to his performance, which is about where he is now. Given the fact the bike has been completely redesigned and developed on his feedback, that doesn't exactly bode well for your point regarding his Yamaha switch back in the day.



Just briefly, as its been discussed to death, its my opinion that the GP7 was the third best bike, if not the 2nd best bike to the Yamaha. Look at where the other GP7 riders were, that should be a clue. Int 2008 the tires dramatically changed to Ducati's disadvantage thanks to the spec tire debacle, advantage Rossi/Yamaha. I could argue this point all day long, but I won't, as you said, you've been watching for 30 years.



He got on the Yamaha that Checa left which was very much improved. Do yourself a favor and look up an opinion on this Yamaha Rossi inherited by Kenny Roberts Jr. You have been watching for 30 years you say, that's great. I am not of the opinion the Yamaha was a dump when Rossi made the switch. Nor am I of the opinion that he is a magic developer, as his Ducati experience has show, or in the man's own words "I am not an engineer." If anything, its the same argument today of the M1 vs the RCV, its arguable, and its splitting hairs, but neither machine is/was .....

thedeal said:

A very intelligent answer chopper but the nine times world champ with the best development skills should not be out qualified by Hector or beaten by his one title team mate and then made to look very slow by a one legged B team rider starting from the back of the grid.As ive said im far from a Rossi hater in fact hes the best ive ever seen but its over.

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Count him out at your peril.

Arrabbiata1 said:

I'd say '03 - because he was definitely still on the RCV211v and having passed under a yellow flag had to beat Capirossi on the Ducati by ten seconds who was leading on the road. I also remember him running off at Catalunya which cost something like 20 seconds surely earlier the same year - I think Loris won the GP but from memory Valentino managed to finish second. He had so much in hand on the Honda most of the time I reckon he was riding at about 80%. The bike was so sorted out of the crate that even in 2002 the crew joked that they used to tinker with the settings in practice out of sheer boredom.



Rog, you have always ridiculed Sete - not just over his dramatics and perceived insincerity (particularly following the tragic death of Kato), but have also never given him too much credit both in respect of his mental fragility and as a talented rider. Biaggi was also renowned for his lack of mental fortitude. Although Sete mounted a reasonable challenge in both 2003 and 2004 to suggest that either he of Biaggi were serious rivals is absurd given both the difference in talent and as Jum mentions the massive comparative advantage favouring Rossi particularly in 2002 and 2003. To also question Sete's sincerity given the level of Valentino's duplicity and disingenuousness is a bit rich.



I really believe that had Gary McCoy been able to use his specified compound in conjunction with the 16.5 tyre in 2001 instead of the entire paddock enforcing a more amenable michelin he may well have been a formidable rival during Valentino's ascent. But then he could never get on the phone to Clermont Ferrand on a Saturday and influence Sunday's rubber in quite the same way.



Nonetheless I regard 2001, 2004, 2008 and 2009 as being Valentino's greatest championship years. Contentiously, I find the nine times champion accolade rather flatters to deceive. (Cue flame throwers).



Vale is definitely not a spent force where most other riders in the same predicament would have destroyed or seriously damaged their careers, and the obscene amounts of Euro's thrown at him alongside ridiculous preferential treatment at Ducati disgusts me.



As Phil suggests, I'd love to see him on a satellite Honda or Yam with a personal sponsor - and to earn the factory assistance very much like 2000/2001 through his results. We need to see Vale fight again on a bike that allows him to do so.

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You are correct in pointing out im not gibbers greatest fan but i think i did complement him by stating he was competition along with biaggi in the early days. That was in response to comment made implying rossi had no competition pre Stoner and Lorenzo. Not much i know, but it is something

Keshav said:

Count him out at your peril.

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Flash back, end of 07. Rossi is past it, stoner is the next Doohan. Rossi got 2 championships after 07 and casey also got one with Lorenzo spoiling the party for both. We complain about boring racing but looking at the championships it goes to show we have witnessed some great seasons with great riders. I wouldn't count any of these three out just yet.

How many times does Rossi and JB have to tell everyone that Ducati doesn't listen, yet another article with him saying they don't is over at GP one today. Sure the bike was changed and in the same period of time the Honda went through more chassis than the Duc. They have no clear vision of what the bike is supposed to be.

The bike's performance so far is a wash because of the constantly changing weather conditions we're getting from P1 to race, today the bike showed it's true colors again and as we get to more races with the set up time being less interrupted by the weather the bike will continue to show it's ....

I find it incredible that Ducati have no updates for the Desmo, yes Honda has once again brought new chassis's to the table. Ducati are pretty much running the same machine as they had at the pre-season tests!! And they are still the same 1-1.5 seconds off........Rossi will leave Ducati, it will be announced very soon, Cal will sign up and Nicky will battle on with them. They will still be no-where next season under these regs.



It is obvious that they do not listen to, or react to, changes requested from the team. Similar story to Stoner's assessment in 2010. Rossi is far from Past it, rain shows that up. Honda and Yamaha have too much advantage under these regs, Ducati looks as though they may have even given up completely.......



Even a cassual observer can see how out of shape the duck looks on track, even in comparison to Stoner on the Honda, who looks quite loose-but at least in control. The Ducati looks terrible, and I've also read they aren't open to changing the engine config????

Ducati championship standings after British GP:



6. Rossi 58

9. Hayden 49

10. Barbera 37

17. Abraham 4