Mental Anarchist
So how did they manage to get it so right before and so wrong now?
Big Jorge
You must be trolling, or a true Lbop , but here goes.
Neither sets of celebrations were defensible.
You must be trolling, or a true Lbop , but here goes.
Neither sets of celebrations were defensible.
Kropotkin
Luck. Rossi was the class rider of the field back in the 990 days. There were no Lorenzo's, Stoner's, Pedrosa's, Marquez's. So a little help from Dorna to make sure the current was always flowing Rossi's way meant he was able to make it look effortless whilst building his own brand. With a massive % of the MotoGP fan base being Rossi fans first, Dorna's manipulations were considered deserved and never unfair.
Now, with a quality field of riders who have all spanked him, Dorna's assistance is not enough and nor is it so efficiently ignored as there are now massive fan bases for Lorenzo, Stoner, Pedrosa and Marquez and even 2nd tier riders like Crutchlow etc. These fan bases don't like it nor do they ignore the redirection of tidal forces behind riders they don't worship.
I must admit that I thought Rossi would come back strong and even predicted a championship. But even I underestimated just how much better Lorenzo, Stoner, Pedrosa and now Marquez are than what was considered the best in the last era. Gibernau, Melandri, Capirossi etc were always just riders like Bradl, Smith, Espargaro, DePuniet i.e. not at that same level as Lorenzo, Stoner, Pedrosa and Marquez.
Luck. Rossi was the class rider of the field back in the 990 days. There were no Lorenzo's, Stoner's, Pedrosa's, Marquez's. So a little help from Dorna to make sure the current was always flowing Rossi's way meant he was able to make it look effortless whilst building his own brand. With a massive % of the MotoGP fan base being Rossi fans first, Dorna's manipulations were considered deserved and never unfair.
Now, with a quality field of riders who have all spanked him, Dorna's assistance is not enough and nor is it so efficiently ignored as there are now massive fan bases for Lorenzo, Stoner, Pedrosa and Marquez and even 2nd tier riders like Crutchlow etc. These fan bases don't like it nor do they ignore the redirection of tidal forces behind riders they don't worship.
I must admit that I thought Rossi would come back strong and even predicted a championship. But even I underestimated just how much better Lorenzo, Stoner, Pedrosa and now Marquez are than what was considered the best in the last era. Gibernau, Melandri, Capirossi etc were always just riders like Bradl, Smith, Espargaro, DePuniet i.e. not at that same level as Lorenzo, Stoner, Pedrosa and Marquez.
Perhaps unusually, i would appear to be at odds with the consensus on this thread. I actually think Valentino won all those races and championships largely because he was really good.
I agree with Lex though that Dorna/Bridgepoint don't give a flying .... about Valentino or anyone else except insofar as their ends are served, and they are venture capitalists not bike racing enthusiasts as Lex says. Like him or loathe him Stoner was an X-factor for whom they knew they could not account; I include both him winning a championship most unexpectedly in 2007, and not winning in 2012, even apart from him retiring in any case..
I agree with Lex though that Dorna/Bridgepoint don't give a flying .... about Valentino or anyone else except insofar as their ends are served, and they are venture capitalists not bike racing enthusiasts as Lex says. Like him or loathe him Stoner was an X-factor for whom they knew they could not account; I include both him winning a championship most unexpectedly in 2007, and not winning in 2012, even apart from him retiring in any case..
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
michaelm
In saying that, I don't think you're necessarily at odds with anything Mike. Of course Valentino won those races and championship because he was really good. However the assertion that 'numbers don't lie' is a slightly misleading maxim that sits better with devious politicians, banks, and spin doctors. More specifically, the record books don't tend to tell the whole story. There were additional factors, circumstances and substantial comparative advantage to be considered too. Any true scholar of the sport will appreciate this. Quick example off the top of my head..Ago would have never have defected from 'The Count' and gone to Yamaha and in doing so won his eight premier title had Saarinen not lost his life at Monza. Further, I don't believe Phil Reid would have ever become 500cc champion. The record books say otherwise - 'the numbers don't lie'.
Not to mindlessly speculate on 'what could have been' or detract from or denigrate Valentino's achievements. He won because he was the best......but which is in itself a relative concept. Had his era been during the late '80's early nineties...he wouldn't have come to the fore, I steadfastly maintain that the level of competition in the premier class waned during the early nineties and has recently seen a dramatic resurgence...coinciding with Valentino's 'fall from grace'. It's all about making hay[den]...capitalising upon the circumstances and events/variables around you. His prowess on a 2 stroke and progress on the 500 on the quasi factory but ultimately satellite Nastro Azurro sponsored NSR incresed his currency at HRC and bought him upgrades and ultimately his championship in 2001 was entirely down to his ascension as a rider and natural superiority...so he was best placed to exploit the advantages conferred by the availibility of SNS's and ultimately with the ushering in of the new four stroke era the indomitable mighty RCV211v V5 Honda.
The availability of SNS aside, (which is a hugely involved issue and like a blocked artery has already clogged up far too much of my bandwidth over the past five years than can be healthy) - let's instead just look at the RCV211v years '02 and '03.
In 2002, the inequities between Repsol Honda and the rest of the grid were absurd. Not only was Vale largely unassailable by then having the measure the entire field, he of was on top of his game on a bike that quite literally worked everywhere straight out of the crate. By their own admission the crew would tinker with the settings out of sheer boredom "just to see what happened". Valentino had so much in reserve which wasn't really tested until a factory RCV211v came the way of Alex Barros and his genius crew chief Antonio Cobas at Motegi (wikki it B.JC). He proceeded to win the race, then again at Valencia. Even given Valentino's obvious superiority as a rider over his rivals, had he spent two thirds of the season languishing on a Satellite Pons NSR as did Barros, or indeed the entire season like Loris Capirossi - quite simply, he wouldn't have won the championship. I think even the most ardent Rossi afficianado would be hard pressed to dispute that - although you are welcome to try. In fact had he been handed that beast of an M1, (minus the four engine options and the open cheque book that would follow for '04) - the original screamer ridden by Biaggi and Checa - directly out of the developmental stewardship of that lunatic 'Lil John, he wouldn't have won it either. I think at that transitional stage in the series with the inauguration of the four strokes - there are at least half a dozen riders that had they theoretically swapped their seats with Rossi would have been World Champion...and furthermore, I reiterate, I do think that the competition is far more formidable now. It was during this period, 2002 and 2003 that the hagiography began to be written and the fanboy fanaticism grew which to non Rossi fans or neutrals quickly became not only irksome but intolerable.
What he then accomplished in 2004 however, irrespective of the revised ambition and budget at Yamaha, was simply unprecidented.
Regarding celebrations...most of you don't appear to realise or recall that Jorge was already reeling these off during his 250 days. I've said before - riding a Fortuna sponsored fold up bicycle into Parc Ferme at Phillip Isaland was my favourite. I liked the popcorn stunt and the leaping into the lake. It made Rossi's japes - which by then were also getting tiresome - redundant, which was the rationale..to upstage him.
Personally, I've enjoyed celebrations from both Rossi and Lorenzo in the past. The speeding ticket at Mugello was brilliant, as was the convict rock breaking at Brno...(again selective amnesia amongst many members aghast and up in arms about Cal's recent vocalisation at Yamaha). I liked the portaloo, the blow up doll piss take of Biaggi and the stethescope diagnostic of the M1. By the time of The Seven Dwarves and the skittles it had all got too cheesey and contrived, but I do know that there was something unique planned for Mugello. Not only was willing Valentino to win in front of his home crowd before the hapless events unfolded at Peggio Secco, but I have to admit I was quite eager to see what theatrics were in the script/screenplay after such a lengthy absence from the top of the block. Not to say Rossi's 'goose' is cooked...but the sad fact remains, barring a race of attrition or some mechanical mishap befalling one or more of the competition - we may never know.
In saying that, I don't think you're necessarily at odds with anything Mike. Of course Valentino won those races and championship because he was really good. However the assertion that 'numbers don't lie' is a slightly misleading maxim that sits better with devious politicians, banks, and spin doctors. More specifically, the record books don't tend to tell the whole story. There were additional factors, circumstances and substantial comparative advantage to be considered too. Any true scholar of the sport will appreciate this. Quick example off the top of my head..Ago would have never have defected from 'The Count' and gone to Yamaha and in doing so won his eight premier title had Saarinen not lost his life at Monza. Further, I don't believe Phil Reid would have ever become 500cc champion. The record books say otherwise - 'the numbers don't lie'.
Not to mindlessly speculate on 'what could have been' or detract from or denigrate Valentino's achievements. He won because he was the best......but which is in itself a relative concept. Had his era been during the late '80's early nineties...he wouldn't have come to the fore, I steadfastly maintain that the level of competition in the premier class waned during the early nineties and has recently seen a dramatic resurgence...coinciding with Valentino's 'fall from grace'. It's all about making hay[den]...capitalising upon the circumstances and events/variables around you. His prowess on a 2 stroke and progress on the 500 on the quasi factory but ultimately satellite Nastro Azurro sponsored NSR incresed his currency at HRC and bought him upgrades and ultimately his championship in 2001 was entirely down to his ascension as a rider and natural superiority...so he was best placed to exploit the advantages conferred by the availibility of SNS's and ultimately with the ushering in of the new four stroke era the indomitable mighty RCV211v V5 Honda.
The availability of SNS aside, (which is a hugely involved issue and like a blocked artery has already clogged up far too much of my bandwidth over the past five years than can be healthy) - let's instead just look at the RCV211v years '02 and '03.
In 2002, the inequities between Repsol Honda and the rest of the grid were absurd. Not only was Vale largely unassailable by then having the measure the entire field, he of was on top of his game on a bike that quite literally worked everywhere straight out of the crate. By their own admission the crew would tinker with the settings out of sheer boredom "just to see what happened". Valentino had so much in reserve which wasn't really tested until a factory RCV211v came the way of Alex Barros and his genius crew chief Antonio Cobas at Motegi (wikki it B.JC). He proceeded to win the race, then again at Valencia. Even given Valentino's obvious superiority as a rider over his rivals, had he spent two thirds of the season languishing on a Satellite Pons NSR as did Barros, or indeed the entire season like Loris Capirossi - quite simply, he wouldn't have won the championship. I think even the most ardent Rossi afficianado would be hard pressed to dispute that - although you are welcome to try. In fact had he been handed that beast of an M1, (minus the four engine options and the open cheque book that would follow for '04) - the original screamer ridden by Biaggi and Checa - directly out of the developmental stewardship of that lunatic 'Lil John, he wouldn't have won it either. I think at that transitional stage in the series with the inauguration of the four strokes - there are at least half a dozen riders that had they theoretically swapped their seats with Rossi would have been World Champion...and furthermore, I reiterate, I do think that the competition is far more formidable now. It was during this period, 2002 and 2003 that the hagiography began to be written and the fanboy fanaticism grew which to non Rossi fans or neutrals quickly became not only irksome but intolerable.
What he then accomplished in 2004 however, irrespective of the revised ambition and budget at Yamaha, was simply unprecidented.
Regarding celebrations...most of you don't appear to realise or recall that Jorge was already reeling these off during his 250 days. I've said before - riding a Fortuna sponsored fold up bicycle into Parc Ferme at Phillip Isaland was my favourite. I liked the popcorn stunt and the leaping into the lake. It made Rossi's japes - which by then were also getting tiresome - redundant, which was the rationale..to upstage him.
Personally, I've enjoyed celebrations from both Rossi and Lorenzo in the past. The speeding ticket at Mugello was brilliant, as was the convict rock breaking at Brno...(again selective amnesia amongst many members aghast and up in arms about Cal's recent vocalisation at Yamaha). I liked the portaloo, the blow up doll piss take of Biaggi and the stethescope diagnostic of the M1. By the time of The Seven Dwarves and the skittles it had all got too cheesey and contrived, but I do know that there was something unique planned for Mugello. Not only was willing Valentino to win in front of his home crowd before the hapless events unfolded at Peggio Secco, but I have to admit I was quite eager to see what theatrics were in the script/screenplay after such a lengthy absence from the top of the block. Not to say Rossi's 'goose' is cooked...but the sad fact remains, barring a race of attrition or some mechanical mishap befalling one or more of the competition - we may never know.
Arrabbiata1
Agree with all of this with one very minor quibble. I wouldn't call Rossi's victory in '04 unprecedented - Lawson managed a similar feat - but it was truly exceptional. The 2004 M1 was a good bike, but it was clearly nowhere near as powerful as the Honda V5.
MotoGP is a business, not some philanthropic organization that cares for racing and it's integrity. In the past, why wouldn't have Dorna given Vale special assistance to increase the Rossi market price? I don't think its paranoia, its business and happens all over the world in various shapes and forms.
The Rossi cash-cow is coming to the end of its life cycle. But Ezy is smart. He knows there are plenty of peeps with yellow shirts and banners. So, he sold them hope. He hinted last year that Rossi would be back on a winning bike and back to his winning ways. He may now have the bike, but no wins. For Ezy, it doesn't matter if Rossi aint winning. He knew the Rossi show was drawing to a close. But the HOPE was enough to keep people hanging on that little bit longer.
I couldn't ride a bike to save my life. But I love watching bike racing, have done for years. However, if I am honest with myself, I aint really watching a sport. Or at least it aint really a sport anymore. Its entertainment - a traveling circus on wheels. Rossi has been the equivalent of the circus' great trapeze artist for some years. But now he is old. Continuing to give Rossi an edge won't help him anymore, nor is it viable - because the new performers are faster and younger.
Seeing Vale on the top step in 2013, victorious over Lorenzo, Pedrosa and Marquez in a race unaffected by rain is a fantasy that would only be possible in a Hollywood movie.
The Rossi cash-cow is coming to the end of its life cycle. But Ezy is smart. He knows there are plenty of peeps with yellow shirts and banners. So, he sold them hope. He hinted last year that Rossi would be back on a winning bike and back to his winning ways. He may now have the bike, but no wins. For Ezy, it doesn't matter if Rossi aint winning. He knew the Rossi show was drawing to a close. But the HOPE was enough to keep people hanging on that little bit longer.
I couldn't ride a bike to save my life. But I love watching bike racing, have done for years. However, if I am honest with myself, I aint really watching a sport. Or at least it aint really a sport anymore. Its entertainment - a traveling circus on wheels. Rossi has been the equivalent of the circus' great trapeze artist for some years. But now he is old. Continuing to give Rossi an edge won't help him anymore, nor is it viable - because the new performers are faster and younger.
Seeing Vale on the top step in 2013, victorious over Lorenzo, Pedrosa and Marquez in a race unaffected by rain is a fantasy that would only be possible in a Hollywood movie.
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
@krop,arrab :
i remember reading (without taking anything from valentino) a big part of his 04 success was the same as for lorenzo last year.
last minute compound change in the a-grade michelins which would make the honda chatter,or pump or something and that cost especially barros a lot.
true story or just an excuse for the factory boys (gibernau,biaggi,barros,hayden right?) ?
i remember reading (without taking anything from valentino) a big part of his 04 success was the same as for lorenzo last year.
last minute compound change in the a-grade michelins which would make the honda chatter,or pump or something and that cost especially barros a lot.
true story or just an excuse for the factory boys (gibernau,biaggi,barros,hayden right?) ?
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Kropotkin
He did indeed - even down to winning consecutive races for a different manufacurer I believe. Again - keeping the record books firmly closed - I regard it as unprecedented because the M1 was so lacking in grunt against the V5 - the disparities between the Honda and Yamaha were arguably not so acute in '89..although Gardner insisted the bike was a ....... to ride. Saying that, he didn't have the benefit of Erv Kanamoto or a raft of factory upgrades that seemed to come Lawson's way. Again we are entering the realms of debating differential machinery, politics and rider and peer perception. Certainly, today's incarnation of the Yamaha at least almost matches the Honda in the top end stakes..just takes slightly longer to get there and lacks the same low down grunt out of the turns. In 2004 the M1 was substantially down on the power of the V5's accross the range...it really was the rider making up the difference and exploiting the relative strengths of the machinery - which as is the case today, the nimble handling and the stability into a turn.
Perhaps 'unprecidented' was the wrong word given that I spelt it wrong and in view of the fact that there are previous examples of riders winning championships on inferior equipment. The M1 got stronger throughout the year but I do feel that it would have been an insurmountable handicap for any other rider other than Rossi at the time.
He did indeed - even down to winning consecutive races for a different manufacurer I believe. Again - keeping the record books firmly closed - I regard it as unprecedented because the M1 was so lacking in grunt against the V5 - the disparities between the Honda and Yamaha were arguably not so acute in '89..although Gardner insisted the bike was a ....... to ride. Saying that, he didn't have the benefit of Erv Kanamoto or a raft of factory upgrades that seemed to come Lawson's way. Again we are entering the realms of debating differential machinery, politics and rider and peer perception. Certainly, today's incarnation of the Yamaha at least almost matches the Honda in the top end stakes..just takes slightly longer to get there and lacks the same low down grunt out of the turns. In 2004 the M1 was substantially down on the power of the V5's accross the range...it really was the rider making up the difference and exploiting the relative strengths of the machinery - which as is the case today, the nimble handling and the stability into a turn.
Perhaps 'unprecidented' was the wrong word given that I spelt it wrong and in view of the fact that there are previous examples of riders winning championships on inferior equipment. The M1 got stronger throughout the year but I do feel that it would have been an insurmountable handicap for any other rider other than Rossi at the time.
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
cliché guevara
As I remember it most acutely affected Edwards - who famously said upon first testing the RCV in 2003..."It was so good..I went back to the hotel and had a ....". Unfortunately, although he finished a credidable 5th on the second Gresini bike, his '04 season was dogged by chatter. I think it manifested itself to differning degrees on the Honda and by 2006 the 'customer chassis' from 2005 was less afflicted and hence retained for Pedrosa's use..with Nicky already destined for the Evo machine. As is almost invariably the case with HRC they flung innumerable chassis's at the problem the chronology of which is quite hard to recall. I'm at work right now..I'll have a look in Motocourse when I get home - unless of course BJ.C happens accross this discussion in the meantime, but then we're entirely at the mercy the validity and accuracy of the internet and Wikki.
As I remember it most acutely affected Edwards - who famously said upon first testing the RCV in 2003..."It was so good..I went back to the hotel and had a ....". Unfortunately, although he finished a credidable 5th on the second Gresini bike, his '04 season was dogged by chatter. I think it manifested itself to differning degrees on the Honda and by 2006 the 'customer chassis' from 2005 was less afflicted and hence retained for Pedrosa's use..with Nicky already destined for the Evo machine. As is almost invariably the case with HRC they flung innumerable chassis's at the problem the chronology of which is quite hard to recall. I'm at work right now..I'll have a look in Motocourse when I get home - unless of course BJ.C happens accross this discussion in the meantime, but then we're entirely at the mercy the validity and accuracy of the internet and Wikki.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
Good posts from Krop and (especially) Arrabb.
To me 2004 was win or bust territory for Yamaha. They went into the four stroke era with a carbied 990cc in a 500 chassis.
It wasn't working and to stick Rossi on it would have seen the likes of Barros' RCV cantering into the distance. They did what Honda is so often accused of not doing and listened to their rider. A rider at the top of his game and who'd just come off the dominant bike. All credit to them for pulling their fingers out. And all credit to Vale, knowing what he was going up against.
To me 2004 was win or bust territory for Yamaha. They went into the four stroke era with a carbied 990cc in a 500 chassis.
It wasn't working and to stick Rossi on it would have seen the likes of Barros' RCV cantering into the distance. They did what Honda is so often accused of not doing and listened to their rider. A rider at the top of his game and who'd just come off the dominant bike. All credit to them for pulling their fingers out. And all credit to Vale, knowing what he was going up against.
Joined Feb 2009
3K Posts | 2+
siebenbürgen süße heimat!
thanks for the info arrab, no need to bother going through the magazines, i trust what you say 
edit: one more question though if you don't mind me asking:
exactly how many versions of the rc211v were there in 2006?
an improved 2005 chassis for pedrosa
the 2006 model ( different chassis ) for the satellite guys including melandri
and the 2006 evo (different crank,clutch and gearbox if i remember correctly) for hayden which acted as a rc212v testbed right?
thx again
edit: one more question though if you don't mind me asking:
exactly how many versions of the rc211v were there in 2006?
an improved 2005 chassis for pedrosa
the 2006 model ( different chassis ) for the satellite guys including melandri
and the 2006 evo (different crank,clutch and gearbox if i remember correctly) for hayden which acted as a rc212v testbed right?
thx again
Joined Jul 2008
2K Posts | 14+
Tweed Valley Australia
Kropotkin
So Dorna buys WSBK and drops Rossi in as his last hurrah. 5 years ago the punters (and Dorna) believed that a Ducati to Ducati transition would have been perfect right? A #46 replacing #21. Motogp struggles along finds its new cash cow, which it has now and the legion of fans have to buy Marquez action figures instead of Valentino ones.
The only truly problematic period for transition was Stoner who threatened crowds like Doohan and have a guess what, rules were made and Stoner was discriminated against and Rossi and the Euro's favoured. Boo-frickity-hoo it happened.
Before 2007 was there talk of an orderly transition and bidding process to a control tyre, but after Stone ran away with 2007 it became a stampede with about as much dignity as one of those high heeled transvestite races. They are the facts. There is no way to describe the outlandish actions as the knee jerks of a panicked boardroom.
Then the MSMA (OR WHATEVER) saw getting Stoner was good. Dorna believed the Ducati was still good and the deal was done. Talk about unintended consequences?????? It was like the same transvestite bringing a baby around 9 months after you copped a sly heady.
So Dorna has been in a fit, the kids are obviously catching Valentino (Jorge wiped the floor with him, and it never looked like Stoner lost to Valentino, he lost to his own Ducati), buy the WSBK and ease him out while punching tickets up and crowds, use it to crutch motogp until the Vale storm has gone and cute little marquez, which cliche has adorned with a face full of baby gravy will take over.
Really, there are periods of transition and more correctly succession involved here.
Stoner can't come back anywhere because he and Ezy hate everything about each other and Ezy owns or runs at least both series.
Fully managed business this.
So Dorna buys WSBK and drops Rossi in as his last hurrah. 5 years ago the punters (and Dorna) believed that a Ducati to Ducati transition would have been perfect right? A #46 replacing #21. Motogp struggles along finds its new cash cow, which it has now and the legion of fans have to buy Marquez action figures instead of Valentino ones.
The only truly problematic period for transition was Stoner who threatened crowds like Doohan and have a guess what, rules were made and Stoner was discriminated against and Rossi and the Euro's favoured. Boo-frickity-hoo it happened.
Before 2007 was there talk of an orderly transition and bidding process to a control tyre, but after Stone ran away with 2007 it became a stampede with about as much dignity as one of those high heeled transvestite races. They are the facts. There is no way to describe the outlandish actions as the knee jerks of a panicked boardroom.
Then the MSMA (OR WHATEVER) saw getting Stoner was good. Dorna believed the Ducati was still good and the deal was done. Talk about unintended consequences?????? It was like the same transvestite bringing a baby around 9 months after you copped a sly heady.
So Dorna has been in a fit, the kids are obviously catching Valentino (Jorge wiped the floor with him, and it never looked like Stoner lost to Valentino, he lost to his own Ducati), buy the WSBK and ease him out while punching tickets up and crowds, use it to crutch motogp until the Vale storm has gone and cute little marquez, which cliche has adorned with a face full of baby gravy will take over.
Really, there are periods of transition and more correctly succession involved here.
Stoner can't come back anywhere because he and Ezy hate everything about each other and Ezy owns or runs at least both series.
Fully managed business this.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
cliché guevara
That's a difficult one, cliché.
I know the 'Honda bring out xx chassis' line gets trotted out a lot, but moving a weld 5mm down or changing a gusset from 3 to 4mm counts as a new part number and hence a "new chassis" in Honda land (and any decent engineering practice).
Unless you do a full study of the photos from each season, I doubt you'll find a decent answer (happy to be contradicted here).
What I always found strange was that the 2004 or 5 chassis didn't even have an adjustable swingarm pivot...so someone must have thought they got it 100%. A bizarre notion.
3535361371036168
thanks for the info arrab, no need to bother going through the magazines, i trust what you say
edit: one more question though if you don't mind me asking:
exactly how many versions of the rc211v were there in 2006?
an improved 2005 chassis for pedrosa
the 2006 model ( different chassis ) for the satellite guys including melandri
and the 2006 evo (different crank,clutch and gearbox if i remember correctly) for hayden which acted as a rc212v testbed right?
thx again
That's a difficult one, cliché.
I know the 'Honda bring out xx chassis' line gets trotted out a lot, but moving a weld 5mm down or changing a gusset from 3 to 4mm counts as a new part number and hence a "new chassis" in Honda land (and any decent engineering practice).
Unless you do a full study of the photos from each season, I doubt you'll find a decent answer (happy to be contradicted here).
What I always found strange was that the 2004 or 5 chassis didn't even have an adjustable swingarm pivot...so someone must have thought they got it 100%. A bizarre notion.
Kropotkin
I think it was unprecedented for technical reasons. The 990s were more powerful than GP machines from previous decades, and extracting speed from a 990cc 4-stroke with 26L-24L required a different approach to racing. The Rossi-Burgess-Furusawa triumvirate conceived of a new style of 4-stroke point-and-shoot, and they developed the technical attributes to make it work. Under the new philosophy of speed, an inline engine was preferable b/c its mass could be wedged directly behind the rear wheel to fight wheelies during corner exit. The swingarm needed to be long for better torsional flex tuning so Yamaha bolted the swingarm to engine case. The rear spring needed to be extraordinarily soft to transfer weight to the rear tire under acceleration and increase traction. The excessive weight transfer and punishing horsepower demanded new hard carcass rear tires from Michelin. Most importantly perhaps, Yamaha needed a special rider with exceptional talent and long levers to keep the bike under control, particularly in the braking zones.
Yamaha's new point-and-shoot was competitive immediately, but Yamaha/Michelin still had quite a few kinks to work out. By 2005, the engineering was refined, and Yamaha were as dominant as Honda had been just 2 years prior. A majority of people only see the constant of Valentino Rossi, perhaps a few savvy Boppers noticed Burgess, but the tectonic shift in GP engineering, caused by the new big-bore 4-stroke era, seemed quite unprecedented. I suspect the drag bike engineering style would have continued to dominate GP competition, if not for the 12.5% reduction in fuel capacity during 2006-2007 and the 20% reduction in engine displacement for 2007.
If Rossi-Burgess deserve a great deal of credit for making the M1 a world beater by turning it inside-out and upside-down, then Butterhammer-Forcada are deserving of praise for completely re-engineering the bike for cornerspeed (21L 800cc) while also maintaining championship form (2009-2010). Perhaps the Lorenzo-Forcada triumph is even more spectacular than the Rossi-Burgess accomplishments?
Maybe all of these observations are just a facade, built by the unassuming spactacled Japanese genius who directed all engineering activities at Yamaha while remaining out of the limelight.
I think it was unprecedented for technical reasons. The 990s were more powerful than GP machines from previous decades, and extracting speed from a 990cc 4-stroke with 26L-24L required a different approach to racing. The Rossi-Burgess-Furusawa triumvirate conceived of a new style of 4-stroke point-and-shoot, and they developed the technical attributes to make it work. Under the new philosophy of speed, an inline engine was preferable b/c its mass could be wedged directly behind the rear wheel to fight wheelies during corner exit. The swingarm needed to be long for better torsional flex tuning so Yamaha bolted the swingarm to engine case. The rear spring needed to be extraordinarily soft to transfer weight to the rear tire under acceleration and increase traction. The excessive weight transfer and punishing horsepower demanded new hard carcass rear tires from Michelin. Most importantly perhaps, Yamaha needed a special rider with exceptional talent and long levers to keep the bike under control, particularly in the braking zones.
Yamaha's new point-and-shoot was competitive immediately, but Yamaha/Michelin still had quite a few kinks to work out. By 2005, the engineering was refined, and Yamaha were as dominant as Honda had been just 2 years prior. A majority of people only see the constant of Valentino Rossi, perhaps a few savvy Boppers noticed Burgess, but the tectonic shift in GP engineering, caused by the new big-bore 4-stroke era, seemed quite unprecedented. I suspect the drag bike engineering style would have continued to dominate GP competition, if not for the 12.5% reduction in fuel capacity during 2006-2007 and the 20% reduction in engine displacement for 2007.
If Rossi-Burgess deserve a great deal of credit for making the M1 a world beater by turning it inside-out and upside-down, then Butterhammer-Forcada are deserving of praise for completely re-engineering the bike for cornerspeed (21L 800cc) while also maintaining championship form (2009-2010). Perhaps the Lorenzo-Forcada triumph is even more spectacular than the Rossi-Burgess accomplishments?
Maybe all of these observations are just a facade, built by the unassuming spactacled Japanese genius who directed all engineering activities at Yamaha while remaining out of the limelight.
