Reading this piece by Michael Scott set me to thinking. If Valentino Rossi is Dorna's goose that lays the golden eggs, and Dorna is not averse to manipulating the sport to ensure Rossi's success and keep their coffers brimming with yellow gold, how come he isn't winning? Or even showing much sign of being competitive?
Was the goose. An odd podium here and there should be enough to satisfy the Rossi market as it makes its transition into the Marquez market.
He's not looking so golden to me right now. I hate to break it to them, but no ones career lasts forever, they need to start looking for the new golden goose I'd say.
Kropotkin
The corollary of this also applies, imo. If Stoner is unpopular but was quite successful it is also evidence that they don't contrive results.
I don't think anyone would seriously suggest that Dorna have ever contrived or tried to contrive a race result. I also believe that most of their rule changes have been fairly intended, and some like the abolition of SNS tyres could in no way be construed as being aimed at helping Valentino. Given how frequently the law of unintended consequences has operated with their rule changes I am not sure they could alter the rules to help a rider even if they wanted to though.
The corollary of this also applies, imo. If Stoner is unpopular but was quite successful it is also evidence that they don't contrive results.
I don't think anyone would seriously suggest that Dorna have ever contrived or tried to contrive a race result. I also believe that most of their rule changes have been fairly intended, and some like the abolition of SNS tyres could in no way be construed as being aimed at helping Valentino. Given how frequently the law of unintended consequences has operated with their rule changes I am not sure they could alter the rules to help a rider even if they wanted to though.
michaelm
That attitude will get you burned at the stake for heresy around here.
Joined Feb 2008
2K Posts | 0+
home
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote1370948111
I'd say old Ezy is asking himself the same question right now.
Oh, I suppose you have your line out with some tasty bait, just waiting for the conspiracy-theory blinded fish to be reeled in on your line of Socratic questioning. Well, I'm not one to dissappoint, so I'll bite.
Just remember how confident Ezy was that a return to Yamaha would also spell a return to his winning ways. I still fully believe that he used his power to facilitate the transition back to Yamaha. It's just that Rossi's and Ezy's combined political pull was enough to get Rossi back on a factory Yamaha, but not quite enough to give him preferential treatment within that team.
Look back at Lorenzo's career, there's a clear progression. 2008-2009, he was making Rossi's life increasingly difficult, and by 2010, he already had his number. After Rossi left, the Lorenzo-Pedrosa-Stoner were pushing each other to even greater heights.
So when Rossi returned, he had to take on a team mate that had already beaten him before, only that team mate was now even better. Without preferential treatment or serious problems in camp 99, I don't believe Rossi stands a chance against Lorenzo. And if he ever could have swayed Yamaha to throw their weight behind him and neglect Lorenzo, that window of opportunity has now probably closed.
That leaves the Honda's. Problem is, what once was team blacksheep + unloved son, now harbours the supposed next golden egg laying goose. That might help explain why we're not seeing any last minute minimum weight or tire compound changes anymore.
So there. In a nutshell, I believe that the logical explanantion of why succes is not forthcoming for Rossi is not that there never was any manipulation in first place, but there is not enough of it now to make it happen. Of course, this is entirely based on my personal paranoid perceptions of the sport. Whereas the assumption that there never was any maniputlation to begin with is entirely based on either naivety or (convenient) ignorance.
And just because I'm a keen fishman myself, I'll throw this one in for you: I personally highly doubt if Rossi would have been able to win any titles at all post 2007, if it had not been for certain changes to the regulations and political manouverings, whatever their intentions were.
I'd say old Ezy is asking himself the same question right now.
Oh, I suppose you have your line out with some tasty bait, just waiting for the conspiracy-theory blinded fish to be reeled in on your line of Socratic questioning. Well, I'm not one to dissappoint, so I'll bite.
Just remember how confident Ezy was that a return to Yamaha would also spell a return to his winning ways. I still fully believe that he used his power to facilitate the transition back to Yamaha. It's just that Rossi's and Ezy's combined political pull was enough to get Rossi back on a factory Yamaha, but not quite enough to give him preferential treatment within that team.
Look back at Lorenzo's career, there's a clear progression. 2008-2009, he was making Rossi's life increasingly difficult, and by 2010, he already had his number. After Rossi left, the Lorenzo-Pedrosa-Stoner were pushing each other to even greater heights.
So when Rossi returned, he had to take on a team mate that had already beaten him before, only that team mate was now even better. Without preferential treatment or serious problems in camp 99, I don't believe Rossi stands a chance against Lorenzo. And if he ever could have swayed Yamaha to throw their weight behind him and neglect Lorenzo, that window of opportunity has now probably closed.
That leaves the Honda's. Problem is, what once was team blacksheep + unloved son, now harbours the supposed next golden egg laying goose. That might help explain why we're not seeing any last minute minimum weight or tire compound changes anymore.
So there. In a nutshell, I believe that the logical explanantion of why succes is not forthcoming for Rossi is not that there never was any manipulation in first place, but there is not enough of it now to make it happen. Of course, this is entirely based on my personal paranoid perceptions of the sport. Whereas the assumption that there never was any maniputlation to begin with is entirely based on either naivety or (convenient) ignorance.
And just because I'm a keen fishman myself, I'll throw this one in for you: I personally highly doubt if Rossi would have been able to win any titles at all post 2007, if it had not been for certain changes to the regulations and political manouverings, whatever their intentions were.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
If the yellow goose had not been capable to fly in the first place, there would never have been any golden eggs for Dorna to collect... it's as simple as that.
Rossi has been a rare combination of riding and communication talents. The first is a precondition for the second to become effective. It's still a sport after all, either you excel or nobody will pay attention to you.
Once you begin losing your competitive edge, as it has been happening to Rossi since 2010, decline follows slowly but inesorably also in popularity etc.
Maybe Barry Sheene had the same potentiality as Rossi, but the media business wasn't ready yet.
Now Marquez looks promising.
Don Ezpeleta must be praying the Virgin Mary every night for his safety. Must have happily agreed to make it easier for him to jump on a factory bike, same as he must have done for Rossi. But he can't ride for them, can he.
Rossi has been a rare combination of riding and communication talents. The first is a precondition for the second to become effective. It's still a sport after all, either you excel or nobody will pay attention to you.
Once you begin losing your competitive edge, as it has been happening to Rossi since 2010, decline follows slowly but inesorably also in popularity etc.
Maybe Barry Sheene had the same potentiality as Rossi, but the media business wasn't ready yet.
Now Marquez looks promising.
Don Ezpeleta must be praying the Virgin Mary every night for his safety. Must have happily agreed to make it easier for him to jump on a factory bike, same as he must have done for Rossi. But he can't ride for them, can he.
Joined Jul 2007
5K Posts | 1K+
unda cheese
He's been on a new bike for all of five races. Would we be having this conversation if Opportunista hadn't taken him out in Mugello?
JohnnyKnockdown
Marquez has been on a new bike, in a new category, with new tires, for all of five races and has won one and podiumed in three more. Does that make Marquez a better rider than Rossi?
Joined Feb 2008
2K Posts | 0+
home
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote1370958802
Probably. Mugello would have been one of his best chances of winning so far, and perhaps for the entire season. Judging by how the weekend was going so far, he did not look much like taking a win, possibly not even a podium.
Probably. Mugello would have been one of his best chances of winning so far, and perhaps for the entire season. Judging by how the weekend was going so far, he did not look much like taking a win, possibly not even a podium.
Kropotkin
Ezpeleta does not know precisely how to make someone win. If he did, he wouldn't be selling sponsorship and licensing t-shirts and kids toys. Carmelo can speculate, scheme, and bend the rules a bit, but he's not a more competent team manager than Nakamoto or Jarvis. Furthermore, voracious capitalists (Dorna via Bridgepoint) are never at a loss to find better ways to earn money, especially when their discontentment has been made well known. WCs with Rossi on a Yamaha is a safe formula for success, but it wasn't exactly lucrative for Bridgepoint. Rossi's non-competitiveness does not exonerate Dorna-Bridgepoint. They could simply be greedy losers.
Anyway, if you assume that Dorna have been guiding Rossi since the beginning (something I encourage people to do), and you look at Rossi's career movements, Dorna's modus operandi becomes clear. They do not treat Rossi as the golden goose, instead, he is just another employee who works to achieve their ends. His personal glory is derived from his uncanny ability to ace Dorna's assignments.
Dorna have relied heavily on the fierce competition between Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki. When MotoGP was launched, only Honda showed up with a serious machine. Yamaha and Suzuki were lost. Rossi and Burgess went to Yamaha to make them competitive. They succeeded to the delight of Dorna and the yellow army. When the 800s were launched, the Stoner-Preziosi-Bridgestone collective was too powerful, and the tire situation turned the sport on its ear. Dorna probably changed the tire regulations, and they politicked and swindled until Rossi acquired Bridgestone tires. Eventually, Dorna went to a control tire. Stoner propped up Ducati and kept them competitive until he decided to leave for 2011. Dorna probably knew Suzuki were on life support so they decided to send Rossi-Burgess to help Ducati, and maintain 3 manufacturer competition. Ducati were unsuccessful. Rossi-Burgess were moved back to their safe spot. Now that Ducati are basically FUBAR, rumors are circulating that Ezpeleta's hardball tactics with Suzuki have softened a bit.
Ezpeleta does not know precisely how to make someone win. If he did, he wouldn't be selling sponsorship and licensing t-shirts and kids toys. Carmelo can speculate, scheme, and bend the rules a bit, but he's not a more competent team manager than Nakamoto or Jarvis. Furthermore, voracious capitalists (Dorna via Bridgepoint) are never at a loss to find better ways to earn money, especially when their discontentment has been made well known. WCs with Rossi on a Yamaha is a safe formula for success, but it wasn't exactly lucrative for Bridgepoint. Rossi's non-competitiveness does not exonerate Dorna-Bridgepoint. They could simply be greedy losers.
Anyway, if you assume that Dorna have been guiding Rossi since the beginning (something I encourage people to do), and you look at Rossi's career movements, Dorna's modus operandi becomes clear. They do not treat Rossi as the golden goose, instead, he is just another employee who works to achieve their ends. His personal glory is derived from his uncanny ability to ace Dorna's assignments.
Dorna have relied heavily on the fierce competition between Honda, Yamaha, and Suzuki. When MotoGP was launched, only Honda showed up with a serious machine. Yamaha and Suzuki were lost. Rossi and Burgess went to Yamaha to make them competitive. They succeeded to the delight of Dorna and the yellow army. When the 800s were launched, the Stoner-Preziosi-Bridgestone collective was too powerful, and the tire situation turned the sport on its ear. Dorna probably changed the tire regulations, and they politicked and swindled until Rossi acquired Bridgestone tires. Eventually, Dorna went to a control tire. Stoner propped up Ducati and kept them competitive until he decided to leave for 2011. Dorna probably knew Suzuki were on life support so they decided to send Rossi-Burgess to help Ducati, and maintain 3 manufacturer competition. Ducati were unsuccessful. Rossi-Burgess were moved back to their safe spot. Now that Ducati are basically FUBAR, rumors are circulating that Ezpeleta's hardball tactics with Suzuki have softened a bit.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Kropotkin
Ha! You genuinely have me laughing buddy. I like you more every day. Krop, very unconvincing dude. You remind me of the reply YOU gave Talpa when he asked (paraphrasing) ‘If Rossi is so influential, why didn’t he get Indy repaved?’--which ironically happened. (Or something along the lines that if Rossi was so influencial, why didn't he use his influence to improve the track since he crashed.) Your reply was along the lines, ‘ He is influential but he is not God.’ (I know I’m way off the wording but the gist and your point in such a reply was the same.) You can see the reply was something of a backhand…
I don't for a minute believe you would be so silly to believe the premise of your question, though I will admit, your level of levelheadedness has been questionable after Jerez...So I can only imagine (or hope) your prodigious question was to make some salient point. Your question here is of the same feeble vain, rhetorical pseudo injury as the one you answered regarding VR's influence and Indy, and it deserves the same level of retort you set precedent; I’ll answer it. Would you like the short or long version?
Btw, what are you going to ask next? "Why do I even watch MotoGP?"
Edit: while I have your undivided attention, do you ever plan to write 'part 2' of Mugello round up?
Ha! You genuinely have me laughing buddy. I like you more every day. Krop, very unconvincing dude. You remind me of the reply YOU gave Talpa when he asked (paraphrasing) ‘If Rossi is so influential, why didn’t he get Indy repaved?’--which ironically happened. (Or something along the lines that if Rossi was so influencial, why didn't he use his influence to improve the track since he crashed.) Your reply was along the lines, ‘ He is influential but he is not God.’ (I know I’m way off the wording but the gist and your point in such a reply was the same.) You can see the reply was something of a backhand…
I don't for a minute believe you would be so silly to believe the premise of your question, though I will admit, your level of levelheadedness has been questionable after Jerez...So I can only imagine (or hope) your prodigious question was to make some salient point. Your question here is of the same feeble vain, rhetorical pseudo injury as the one you answered regarding VR's influence and Indy, and it deserves the same level of retort you set precedent; I’ll answer it. Would you like the short or long version?
Btw, what are you going to ask next? "Why do I even watch MotoGP?"
Edit: while I have your undivided attention, do you ever plan to write 'part 2' of Mugello round up?
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
BigJorge, how apropos (even though I doubt this was your intention). I know you're posting it as one would post a pic of somebody eating popcorn, that is seeing how this thread unfolds; however, do you remember the fall out from this post-race celebration? The Yellow Hordes were in a tizzy because VR took none-to-kindly to Lorenzo using a yellow chair to watch himself beat Valentino. Lorenzo's response was to the affect as one would raise their hands as if to say 'what?', with a smirk. He knew what he had meant without saying it, and the message was clear.
Big Jorge
The irony of a photo of Lorenzo doing the one thing that he could never come close to equaling Vale being posted in this thread. I liked JL a lot more after he quit doing the lame photocopy of Rossi's already lame shtick.
Lorenzo is is much faster than his teammate but he'll never be a golden goose. Not a bad thing, just how things are.
3534951370970574
We have a new red and white goose.
The irony of a photo of Lorenzo doing the one thing that he could never come close to equaling Vale being posted in this thread. I liked JL a lot more after he quit doing the lame photocopy of Rossi's already lame shtick.
Lorenzo is is much faster than his teammate but he'll never be a golden goose. Not a bad thing, just how things are.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Kropotkin
Because like almost everything Dorna do, they .... it up. Their intention rarely matches the outcome.
Because like almost everything Dorna do, they .... it up. Their intention rarely matches the outcome.
