The Future of MotoGP (part du)

Mr Squiggle said:

Personally I think WSBK should be a purely production based series with few if any modifications allowed to the bikes, run on production based tires you can buy at your local bike shop..

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I think you are confusing "production" and "stock". Production bikes are whatever people are willing to sell on the open market. Stock bikes are street-legal machines built for mass consumption. Mixing stock bikes and production race bikes has never worked terribly well, unless it's a feeder class. Production race bikes should probably always be based on stock machines. Prototype should include equipment, built to formula guidelines, that the manufacturers would never sell or lease on the open market.



I also think SBK and GP are too close in performance. If GP was still 2t, I wouldn't care, but they are slowly becoming clones. I also agree with Domenicali that the Aprilia CRT is against the spirit of the regulations, but I think it is within the vision of Dorna/Bridgepoint. The claiming rules were intended to discourage factories from getting involved b/c they don't want their SBK parts claimed by other manufacturers. The bigger vision of Dorna, imo, is for GP to own 1000cc and the related production bikes. Not sure what will happen with SBK, but we know the MSMA don't like the 1000cc base anymore. Not sure why Domenicali would complain. Just claim the bike, and release the parts specifications on the internet so anyone can build Aprilia WSBK parts.

mylexicon said:

I tend to agree about Ezy. I admire his fervor and his willingness to take on the manufacturers, but he's not a racing guy like Bernie, and his not an uber-intellectual barrister like Max Mosley. Thing about Ezy, though, is that he knows he's not a racing man or an uber-intellectual, and he's quite open about it. I think he has been content to let the FIM and then the MSMA have the rulebook b/c he knew he couldn't handle it. When he realized he might want the rulebook, he hired Corrado Checcinello to help communicate with the MSMA. Now that he has problems with Bridgestone and the control tire in general, he has hired Hiroshi Yasukawa, Bridgestone's ex-racing director and one of the most qualified race tire gurus on the planet.



Ezpeleta is not a great communicator, and I think that is his only real downfall. He says things and invokes ideas that are often confusing or controversial. In this article he said that it is more important for GP to be entertainment than technological sport. If that's the case, WCW is a possibility under Ezy's philosophy. However, it is highly debatable, imo, whether Checchinello, Yasukawa, and the technical partners they represent will blindly follow Ezpeleta down the road to WCW. I think IRTA will follow Ezy wherever he goes, but not the rest of the paddock.

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I had forgotten he had hired those guys, it is reassuring that he has done so when taking the reins.



However, his past record doesn't inspire me with confidence, most of his rule changes have not been thought through and often have had the opposite of the outcome aimed for. He has seemed in the past to have brainstorms and to proceed immediately from conception to implementation.

double

xx CURVE xx said:

Dude its Moto GP not Moto Proto GP..



the prob is they allowed it to get too high tech.. i dont care for the rev limit but a combined rider bike weight limit and and stock ECU is cool, the sport has been taken over by midgets and i hate midgets.. IMO they should strip off ALL and any rider assists also.



1 million Euro and you OWN the machine is wayyyy better than 3.5 million Euro to borrow a bike for a few months..

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Dude, get over you obsession with rider's physical size. I don't get what your hang-up is about it. Do you rail against pro basketball being predominately played by really tall people? Teams in any sport hire whomever they want, go whine and ..... to them because it seems you like to bring up 'midgets this, midgets that' at every opportunity possible.

eltoro said:

Dude, get over you obsession with rider's physical size. I don't get what your hang-up is about it. Do you rail against pro basketball being predominately played by really tall people? Teams in any sport hire whomever they want, go whine and ..... to them because it seems you like to bring up 'midgets this, midgets that' at every opportunity possible.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hoc_hypothesizing

eltoro said:

Dude, get over you obsession with rider's physical size. I don't get what your hang-up is about it. Do you rail against pro basketball being predominately played by really tall people? Teams in any sport hire whomever they want, go whine and ..... to them because it seems you like to bring up 'midgets this, midgets that' at every opportunity possible.

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I'm guessing you're about, what? ... 5.1? Am I close?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA

^^ yeah he must be a little spit .... runt im guessing ......... midgets, i hate midgets

eltoro said:

Dude, get over you obsession with rider's physical size. I don't get what your hang-up is about it. Do you rail against pro basketball being predominately played by really tall people? Teams in any sport hire whomever they want, go whine and ..... to them because it seems you like to bring up 'midgets this, midgets that' at every opportunity possible.

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If you loved basketball and then suddenly the powers that be lowered the hoop 2 feet in the name of "safety" so midgets could now dunk youd be ok with that im guessing.

Midgets are evil.



Fact.

bluegreen said:

Midgets are evil.



Fact.

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xx CURVE xx said:

^^

yeah he must be a little spit .... runt im guessing

......... midgets, i hate midgets

If you loved basketball and then suddenly the powers that be lowered the hoop 2 feet in the name of "safety" so midgets could now dunk youd be ok with that im guessing.

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I am short.



Nope, I just acknowledge that some playing fields are not level and are inherently advantaged to certain people. Just like how MotoGP is now being 'taken' over midgets as you say. Unlike you, I don't ..... about it. If you don't like watching midgets, then why do you still watch?

eltoro said:

I am short.



Nope, I just acknowledge that some playing fields are not level and are inherently advantaged to certain people. Just like how MotoGP is now being 'taken' over midgets as you say. Unlike you, I don't ..... about it. If you don't like watching midgets, then why do you still watch?

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If racing is 90% between the ears, is it in the best interest to create a sport where only 20% of the world's smallest people can participate?

mylexicon said:

If racing is 90% between the ears, is it in the best interest to create a sport where only 20% of the world's smallest people can participate?

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If racing is 90% between the ears, does it matter how tall or how much the person participating weighs then?



Nobody has banned taller/heavier people from racing in MotoGP as far as I know. I'll take the basketball analogy again, if the sport naturally advantages tall people, what incentive do teams have to draft short players even though they maybe very talented? They don't, sucks for that those who are not ideal in height, but that's the way it is, isn't it? It's the same extreme, there are a lot of people who aren't 6'6"+ tall and have 30"+ vertical leaps. Sports in general favors those who are bigger, faster, stronger. I do not see why it's it unfair when it actually works in reverse. I do not understand why people are crying afoul here because I sure as hell don't care of the freaks of nature that play other sports.

eltoro said:

If racing is 90% between the ears, does it matter how tall or how much the person participating weighs then?

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No, it shouldn't, but if you compared the phsyique of MotoGP riders to the population at large, you'd see that size does matter in MotoGP. The disparity is probably the reason people react poorly to the miniature riders in the paddock.



Don't compare stick-and-ball with motorsports regarding the physical attributes of the competitors. In that regard, stick-and-ball and MotoGP have almost no commonality.

mylexicon said:

No, it shouldn't, but if you compared the phsyique of MotoGP riders to the population at large, you'd see that size does matter in MotoGP. The disparity is probably the reason people react poorly to the miniature riders in the paddock.



Don't compare stick-and-ball with motorsports regarding the physical attributes of the competitors. In that regard, stick-and-ball and MotoGP have almost no commonality.

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How do they have no commonality? I just pointed one out. Ball and stick and MotoGP are no different in that they select a specific subset of competitor that they view as 'optimal' to compete.



None of my posts said size didn't matter in MotoGP. My whole point is if that teams choose riders with a particular attribute, in this case lighter, shorter, how is that different than ball and stick sports, which nobody laments over? Teams in every sporting arena select who they think will make them competitive, whether that means draft a tall or short guy depends on what the circumstances are.

GP bikes should be the average size of a liter bike not a 250

eltoro said:

How do they have no commonality? I just pointed one out. Ball and stick and MotoGP are no different in that they select a specific subset of competitor that they view as 'optimal' to compete.



None of my posts said size didn't matter in MotoGP. My whole point is if that teams choose riders with a particular attribute, in this case lighter, shorter, how is that different than ball and stick sports, which nobody laments over? Teams in every sporting arena select who they think will make them competitive, whether that means draft a tall or short guy depends on what the circumstances are.

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The Lakers did hire Shaq b/c his mind is capable of doing things other people can't do. Shaq is a legendary player b/c of his physical performance. In motorsports, a human-being is manipulating a device that has legendary performance. The contests are not similar. Even in more relaxed sports like baseball and golf, the participants still have abnormally fast hand speed and the physical size of the top players still tends to be bigger than average.



You just told me that motorsport shouldn't be particular about a person's size, but you don't seem to care that teams select riders based upon physical characteristics. What do you want? a sport in which teams pick small people b/c small people are arbitrarily more worthy according to the fomula? or do you want a sport where size and weight are not particularly important? I don't care which you choose, just be clear about it.



Obviously, the sport naturally selects people on the smaller side of the spectrum b/c they bounce better and they are often better at supporting their own weight against the relentless g's. However, I don't think it is in the best interest of a mental sport to accentuate abnormal immutable physical characteristics that are unrelated to the act of riding a motorcycle. For instance, aerodynamic shoulders, hips, and feet or slight limbs which reduce overall weight. The GPC should be mindful of these things rather than preserving the tradition of apathy. The easiest fix would be raising the minimum width and height dimensions. Dani can ride an SBK. Mladin cannot ride a GP bike.

I guess using the mindset of some, the horse racing community should outlaw thoroughbreds [gp bikes] and mandate everyone race a Clydesdale [CRT}. They are cheaper, and the bigger riders wouldnt be at a disadvantage.

And yet Honda chose the larger Simmo over the almost midget Dovi. But for sure the fuel rule has unintented consequences, lots of stick figures hobbling around.

eltoro said:

If racing is 90% between the ears, does it matter how tall or how much the person participating weighs then?



Nobody has banned taller/heavier people from racing in MotoGP as far as I know. I'll take the basketball analogy again, if the sport naturally advantages tall people, what incentive do teams have to draft short players even though they maybe very talented? They don't, sucks for that those who are not ideal in height, but that's the way it is, isn't it? It's the same extreme, there are a lot of people who aren't 6'6"+ tall and have 30"+ vertical leaps. Sports in general favors those who are bigger, faster, stronger. I do not see why it's it unfair when it actually works in reverse. I do not understand why people are crying afoul here because I sure as hell don't care of the freaks of nature that play other sports.

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Agree. Im 6'6" and weigh 260lbs. My whole life i played sports that took advantage of my size. Most sport requires a certain physical stature to compete , why should GP be any different. I love bike racing, but i sure as hell aint planning on petitioning the FIM to change the whole structure of the sport so i can participate. The soccer moms of the world just dont get it. Cause and effect.. So you change the regs where some guy that weighs 170 lbs can compete in GP. What do you do with the guy who weighs 190 lbs, you change the regs where he can compete and now you have tipped the balance away from the guy who weighs 130, is that fair. Its never ending with people like this, their goal in life is to bring everything down to their level so they can feel good about themselves.

Movie quote: "The Incredibles" which by the way is awesome



Everyone can be super! And when everyone's super, no-one will be.



Take the cards your dealt in life, and play your hand. If your small, take advantage of it. If your huge, take advantage of it. If you fail, dont try to change the rules

povol said:

Agree. Im 6'6" and weigh 260lbs. My whole life i played sports that took advantage of my size. Most sport requires a certain physical stature to compete , why should GP be any different. I love bike racing, but i sure as hell aint planning on petitioning the FIM to change the whole structure of the sport so i can participate. The soccer moms of the world just dont get it. Cause and effect.. So you change the regs where some guy that weighs 170 lbs can compete in GP. What do you do with the guy who weighs 190 lbs, you change the regs where he can compete and now you have tipped the balance away from the guy who weighs 130, is that fair. Its never ending with people like this, their goal in life is to bring everything down to their level so they can feel good about themselves.

Movie quote: "The Incredibles" which by the way is awesome

Everyone can be super! And when everyone's super, no-one will be.



Take the cards your dealt in life, and play your hand. If your small, take advantage of it. If your huge, take advantage of it. If you fail, dont try to change the rules

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You make the point I was going to make. What mylexicon just recommends is just moving the ruler, it doesn't actually solve whatever 'competitive balance' issue that he alludes to. In less words than mylexicon, a few people have already expressed what they want in clear terms in this thread, they'd rather watch someone who is more like them (in this case, someone more of their stature, size-wise) than someone who is not. It's basically an aesthetic preference.



I don't have a problem with their demands, because I do not care if the riders are big or small. I just don't understand where their mindset is when they think the sporting arena is some bastion of equality. Sports are naturally unfair to different subsets of the population, why they are mad that MotoGP particularly is the same way is a mystery to me.