Technical explanations, please.

jvs9932 said:

Hey guys,

I'm a huge MotoGP fan but need some explanation on some topics. Thanks in advance for your insights!

Why does a Ducati need to be ridden with a different style than a Yamaha? What are these specific differences?

What is it about Bastianini's style of riding that lets him have tires at the end of a race but Jack Miller burns through them in half the race?

What is the difference between a low grip track and a high grip one? It would seem that every rider would benefit from more grip but apparently not.

I'm sure I have many more but this is a good start.

Thanks!
John

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p4p1 said:

I’m far from an expert but I will share my understanding.

1. Different bikes get speed different ways, ie when the Honda was an ok bike, the corner entry was where they had an advantage. Yamaha has traditionally had a bike that was able to hold high mid corner speed which is where their advantage was. The Ducati seems to be quicker if the rider brakes as deep as possible, gets it through the corner and stand the bike up as early as possible. It takes advantage of their grip and speed advantage punching out of corners.

2. This I’m not 100% sure on but I am guessing it is a lot to do with the right hand and limiting spinning the rear up. Riders will also change lines slightly, change their body positioning etc as the tyre wears to help reduce stress on the tyre.

3. The amount of grip available is the difference, though I don’t know what actually makes the grip different other than temperature. High grip does favour all riders, they will all ride faster on a track with better grip or a recently resurfaced track. Some riders, can take more advantage of that because of their riding styles, ie, high mid corner speed, getting the bike stood up and at full power etc. some riders like Marquez are happy for the bike to slide under them in low grip conditions, their feeling and reactions are better than some of their competitors. Guys that have a flat track background seems to be consistently be the guys who perform better when the grip is comparatively low, guys like Stoner, Marquez, Miller, have come from flat track, the first two excelling in more difficult conditions.

This is more tyre related but the theory is the same, in 2015 Bridgestone had 2 tyres, some had some kind of edge treatment which gave them more grip on the edge than their non treated counter parts. Although the edge grip was better for all riders and they all were able to go quicker, it gave the biggest advantage to Jorge Lorenzo because of his high corner speed style.

Click to expand...

jvs9932 said:

Hey guys,

I'm a huge MotoGP fan but need some explanation on some topics. Thanks in advance for your insights!

Why does a Ducati need to be ridden with a different style than a Yamaha? What are these specific differences?

What is it about Bastianini's style of riding that lets him have tires at the end of a race but Jack Miller burns through them in half the race?

What is the difference between a low grip track and a high grip one? It would seem that every rider would benefit from more grip but apparently not.

I'm sure I have many more but this is a good start.

Thanks!
John

Click to expand...

#22 said:

I'll elaborate on the great base that P4P1 started with.

1. The bikes have different design philosophies, mainly around the engine and tyre. Before Michelin joined the sport in 2016, the Bridgestone was a front end animal in terms of grip. You could load the front up SO much because it had so much grip and did not compress too much. This is why in the early 2010's, high sides were relatively rare and lowsides on entry were the common crash type. It also meant laptime was made on coner entry, and very few riders used the rear brake. When Michelin came in in 2016, their tyres philosophy is different in that they tend to have more rear grip and the laptime is made on acceleration. This is also why you are seeing riders use more rear brake now, and bikes have aero devices on the swingarm to keep the rear tyre planted more when braking. The electronics are more stock now, but each bike transfers the power differently too. Marque noted this when he first ride the Ducati and a number of his front end crashes in 2024 were precisely because he was trying to push the Ducati on corner entry like he could the Honda.

Finally, for your Ducati Vs Yamaha argument. They are completely different engine types (V4 vs inline 4), this drives performance differences.

2. Rider style. How they apply the throttle, their body mass positioning on the bike, and also just their mental state. Miller is known for going like a bat out of hell out of the blocks, Bastiannini is the opposite so looking after his tyres early on.

3. Grip mainly has to do with the following:
a. Surface finish - If the track is very course, it may have more grip than a smoother one but will eat up tyres
b. Track temperature - Too high or too low is outside the operating window of the tyres
c. Tyre temperature/pressure. - As above
d: Rider weight - Heavy riders can heat the tyres up quicker, but may overheat them as the race goes on.
e. Riding style. - Some riders like a loose bike that moves around a lot (Marquez). Others like a bike that stays in line all the time. This is a big personal preference because if a rider isn't comfortable, they won't be fast.

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jvs9932 said:

Thanks a ton. This is very helpful.

Just to dig a little deeper on the Miller/Bastianini question. It seems that a rider like Miller will use up a lot of tire for basically nothing more in terms of lap time. I mean its not like his aggressive early race pace is blowing away the other riders but he chews up tires with such regularity that I'm always surprised when he actually finishes a race. (Unless it's raining. ) It seems like this is an obviously flawed strategy, why doesn't he change? Or is it just that difficult to change one's riding style once you're at that level?

Thanks again!

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Hollywood said:

I think a lot of that has to do with where each rider is starting, Bastianini usually qualifies better, sometime a couple rows ahead of Miller. So if Miller is trying to win a race from the 5th or 6th row of the grid, then he is going to have to ride aggressive early to get around other riders.

Click to expand...

#22 said:

I'll elaborate on the great base that P4P1 started with.

1. The bikes have different design philosophies, mainly around the engine and tyre. Before Michelin joined the sport in 2016, the Bridgestone was a front end animal in terms of grip. You could load the front up SO much because it had so much grip and did not compress too much. This is why in the early 2010's, high sides were relatively rare and lowsides on entry were the common crash type. It also meant laptime was made on coner entry, and very few riders used the rear brake. When Michelin came in in 2016, their tyres philosophy is different in that they tend to have more rear grip and the laptime is made on acceleration. This is also why you are seeing riders use more rear brake now, and bikes have aero devices on the swingarm to keep the rear tyre planted more when braking. The electronics are more stock now, but each bike transfers the power differently too. Marque noted this when he first ride the Ducati and a number of his front end crashes in 2024 were precisely because he was trying to push the Ducati on corner entry like he could the Honda.

Finally, for your Ducati Vs Yamaha argument. They are completely different engine types (V4 vs inline 4), this drives performance differences.

2. Rider style. How they apply the throttle, their body mass positioning on the bike, and also just their mental state. Miller is known for going like a bat out of hell out of the blocks, Bastiannini is the opposite so looking after his tyres early on.

3. Grip mainly has to do with the following:
a. Surface finish - If the track is very course, it may have more grip than a smoother one but will eat up tyres
b. Track temperature - Too high or too low is outside the operating window of the tyres
c. Tyre temperature/pressure. - As above
d: Rider weight - Heavy riders can heat the tyres up quicker, but may overheat them as the race goes on.
e. Riding style. - Some riders like a loose bike that moves around a lot (Marquez). Others like a bike that stays in line all the time. This is a big personal preference because if a rider isn't comfortable, they won't be fast.

Click to expand...