Stoner: A tough cookie

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 14 2009, 01:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well you gotta admit, Rossi has had his fair share of dog & pony shows.
Sure. He's excellent at that and it adds value to what he delivers to his employer, but if he didn't deliver on Sundays it'd all be pretty meaningless. It's a lot easier to find a showman than to find a rider with the drive and talent to win world championships and races or even qualify and run high enough in the order to get regular TV exposure for sponsors.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 14 2009, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sure. He's excellent at that and it adds value to what he delivers to his employer, but if he didn't deliver on Sundays it'd all be pretty meaningless. It's a lot easier to find a showman than to find a rider with the drive and talent to win world championships and races or even qualify and run high enough in the order to get regular TV exposure for sponsors.
Well i dont think ive ever seen him do a celebration with winning the race you and your ilk may hate rossi and his antic's and that's fine but our sport would be in an even worse state than it is now if it still existed at all with out him and the popularity he brings. be careful what you wish for, you might just get it !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 14 2009, 06:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Sure, and all of the waterboys, trainers, mechanics etc. who work in sports/racing industry are "entertainers" too? BS. The entertainment is the competition. It's his primary job to race just like it's the job of his mechanics to keep the bike in order. It's the job of the people running the teams and series to put together an entertaining product that attracts money. Racers have an obligation to please their sponsors etc. but their goal needs to be first and foremost to race. If people start seeing themselves as "entertainers" the whole product suffers.
I guess he should keep skipping interviews and have a patch wearing doll read a press release. He's an active part of the show. That show includes persona, riding style and the abilty to communicate with viewers. A camera man is not an entertainer, but the actors in what he films are.

Seriously, you make very good points. But, if it were a bunch of stoners and pedrosas I promise you'd stop watching. He doesn't have to powerslide to entertain. I can watch a trick show for that. His job is to go fast and safe around the racetrack then explain the process to viewers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Jul 14 2009, 02:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well i dont think ive ever seen him do a celebration with winning the race you and your ilk may hate rossi and his antic's and that's fine but our sport would be in an even worse state than it is now if it still existed at all with out him and the popularity he brings. be careful what you wish for, you might just get it !
Would it? Or would the past decade or so have unfolded a bit differently and been less about cashing in on one transcendent rider's popularity and more about establishing a solid foundation? I'm not sure where you got the idea that "I and my ilk" hate Rossi. I think some of his antics are tiresome, but as superlative rider and competitor I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for him. I certainly don't take it to the delusional extent of criticizing other riders "about professionalism and self containment in public" while extoling Rossi's all-powerful virtue. Does that qualify as hate to all the Rossi-boppers out there?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Jul 14 2009, 02:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I guess he should keep skipping interviews and have a patch wearing doll read a press release. He's an active part of the show. That show includes persona, riding style and the abilty to communicate with viewers. A camera man is not an entertainer, but the actors in what he films are.

Seriously, you make very good points. But, if it were a bunch of stoners and pedrosas I promise you'd stop watching. He doesn't have to powerslide to entertain. I can watch a trick show for that. His job is to go fast and safe around the racetrack then explain the process to viewers.I'd probably stop watching if it was a bunch of Rossis, or a bunch of Lorenzos, a bunch of Kurtis Roberts, or a bunch of Canepas too, if the racing wasn't interesting. Racing comes first and foremost, and any paddock full of clones of each other is going to be boring to some degree. It's as much the variety of styles and personalities that brings interest as it is the styles alone. The paddock doesn't need 18 Rossis and if it had them, to some degree there would be less to drive interest. 18 smiling, laughing people hiding their competitiveness under a veneer of charm wouldn't be nearly as interesting. The serious-personaed racers who just go out there and work their ... off add their own flavor to the paddock.

Asking someone to be something dramatically different from what they are isn't the answer. The whole "persona" part of the show gets lost if riders can't (at least somewhat) be themselves. Whether that's the entertainer Rossi, the aw-shucks hard-worker Hayden, the hard-charging Stoner, the bland Pedrosa, or anything else, to a large degree people are what they are. If anything, a touch of uncomfortableness with the media lends some authenticity to the whole production.

Ben Spies is a reserved calm guy at interviews. I'd say he's often more bland than Casey. Thing is, he stays positive, explains the race dynamics, and doesn't whine (though he SEEMS to have much more reason too). You can tell there is an undercurrent of personality with Ben, even though he's focused.

I made a post a while ago saying casey was an enigma. Even if total loathing and hatred is driving him to fight for wins, I wanna know about it. For top flight guys who are on the limit, a race weekend is emotional journey. He should share that, along with sexy photos of Adrianna, with the fans. He'll never be as charming as Nicky, but I don't expect it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 14 2009, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Would it? Or would the past decade or so have unfolded a bit differently and been less about cashing in on one transcendent rider's popularity and more about establishing a solid foundation? I'm not sure where you got the idea that "I and my ilk" hate Rossi. I think some of his antics are tiresome, but as superlative rider and competitor I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for him. I certainly don't take it to the delusional extent of criticizing other riders "about professionalism and self containment in public" while extoling Rossi's all-powerful virtue. Does that qualify as hate to all the Rossi-boppers out there?
I'd probably stop watching if it was a bunch of Rossis, or a bunch of Lorenzos, a bunch of Kurtis Roberts, or a bunch of Canepas too, if the racing wasn't interesting. Racing comes first and foremost, and any paddock full of clones of each other is going to be boring to some degree. It's as much the variety of styles and personalities that brings interest as it is the styles alone. The paddock doesn't need 18 Rossis and if it had them, to some degree there would be less to drive interest. 18 smiling, laughing people hiding their competitiveness under a veneer of charm wouldn't be nearly as interesting. The serious-personaed racers who just go out there and work their ... off add their own flavor to the paddock.

Asking someone to be something dramatically different from what they are isn't the answer. The whole "persona" part of the show gets lost if riders can't (at least somewhat) be themselves. Whether that's the entertainer Rossi, the aw-shucks hard-worker Hayden, the hard-charging Stoner, the bland Pedrosa, or anything else, to a large degree people are what they are. If anything, a touch of uncomfortableness with the media lends some authenticity to the whole production.

I'm surprised this one has only turned up here now. Maybe, some of the people who like to pour .... on Stoner should look at some of the other forums around the place. I know of at least one other that has had this up for over a week.
You guys are slipping up.

BTW, since when did blogging become the truth? Anyone could make this .... up and put it on their blog. Still, when you have a certain agenda, truth takes a back seat.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Jul 14 2009, 03:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm surprised

BTW, since when did blogging become the truth? Anyone could make this .... up and put it on their blog. Still, when you have a certain agenda, truth takes a back seat.
Doo. Let me ask u, what in that made-up interview do u disagree with? If i was Casey, i would say most the same .... too. Even if he didnt say it, ive thought it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Jul 14 2009, 05:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The article is fake and self contradictory.Despite this, it highlights some flaws in Stoner's persona.

If the article is 'fake' as you claim then how can something that is fake highlight any flaws in Stoner's persona as you attest?

If something is fake, it is just that, fake and no credence should be applied to any component of it as being truth.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Jul 14 2009, 05:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He think's he's a motorcycle racer and development rider. This is a false conception many athletes have. Casey must understand that he is an entertainer . GP's wouldn't exist without fans. No world class racetracks would ever get built without fans. His first obligation is to himself/family, then to the sport in general, finally his team/sponsors.

FWIW, Stoner is 'friends' with Nicky

Now here I disagree for the reasons stated by some of the othere responses.

Racers are not entertainers but athletes. Athletes by their particpation in competition contribute to an entertainment package but that alone does not make them entertainers.

I would also disagree in the order in which you have placed the improtance of the efforts as I would expect that Stoner's commitment to sponsors and his team is more important than the sport in general as his team are the ones that pay his wages. Were he contracted to DORNA thence I would tend to say that his commitment to the sport come before his team.







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Jul 14 2009, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Seriously, you make very good points. But, if it were a bunch of stoners and pedrosas I promise you'd stop watching.


Disagree as it was the era of such personalities that got me enthralled in the sport.

I used to love the likes of Spencer, Lawson, Gardner, Rainey, Schwantz, Doohan etc and the entertainment for me was not what they said after a race but the way they man-handled the cantankerous beasts around the circuits. To watch then fight tooth and nail, elbow to elbow at speed in amongst a chasm of metal and concrete was for me the extreme of all sports as they put blind trust in their opposition (well, except Michael Rudroff) to see who would come out on top.

Att he end of the day they would often berate an opponent or an aspect of their bike, team or performance, but that was secondary to the real show.

So, to kind of answer, I became a fan of the sport in an era that only had the Pedrosa and Stoner mindsets so there is no way in hell I would stop watching were that era to return.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Jul 14 2009, 07:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He doesn't have to powerslide to entertain. I can watch a trick show for that. His job is to go fast and safe around the racetrack then explain the process to viewers.

And he does that, they all do.

Just that some explain it more eloquently than others or deliver it in manner more accepted by the public.





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 15 2009, 09:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Doo. Let me ask u, what in that made-up interview do u disagree with? If i was Casey, i would say most the same .... too. Even if he didnt say it, ive thought it.
How many friends to you have in the paddock?
“Besides my wife?”
Yes.
“None.”


This, more than any other statement makes it sound like crap. I'm sure that he's friends with at LEAST some of his crew.
And if one part of it is crap, then can I believe anything else? I mean, obviously, some of it sounds like it's true, especially the stuff about Nicky. Does this make the "interview" a real one though?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chopperman @ Jul 14 2009, 07:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well i dont think ive ever seen him do a celebration with winning the race you and your ilk may hate rossi and his antic's and that's fine but our sport would be in an even worse state than it is now if it still existed at all with out him and the popularity he brings. be careful what you wish for, you might just get it !


I may be missing a bit - is this a discussion on Stoner's celebration (as Rossi needs no such discussion)?

Roger, Stoner will often pull monumental stand-up wheelies when crossing the line in first (even did it for third at Jerez this year) and has done for some time,so he does celebrate, but in the 'old school' variety and not with production type of pantomimes (as that is not his style).

As for the Rossi antics I will say now that in the early years they were entertaining as they seemed a spontaneous celebration of his joy, but they have since become tiresome as he has no doubt run out of ideas. I have no issues with his celebrating of major milestones and personally thought the 100 wins was somewhat subdued as I expected far more, but that is just me as I prefer the old days.

And it has to be remembered that whilst the Rossi phenomenon has bought with it a massive boost in dollar and fan numbers, the sport will always survive when he has gone just as it survived those great personalities of years past leaving.

The sport is always bigger than the individual, no matter how big or popular that individual may be.







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 15 2009, 05:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think some of his antics are tiresome, but as superlative rider and competitor I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for him.

i think he does his celebrations for HIS fans and not for everyone. and yes, i know it could be tiresome for you guys to watch, but aside from complaining, we can't really do something about it. it isn't as if it's a crime that we can take him to court or anything to stop him from doing that. but hey man, it's not my problem because i enjoy it. like i said, aside from complaining, what else is there to do?

Who cares about Rossi's celebrations or anyone's for that matter. If someone wins a race they deserve to celebrate, as long as it's in good taste. Though Rossi's celebration with a blow up doll to mock Biaggi was a bit much but I got no problems with it. Like him or hate him, he is who he is.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Son of Doohan @ Jul 14 2009, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>How many friends to you have in the paddock?
“Besides my wife?”
Yes.
“None.”


This, more than any other statement makes it sound like crap. I'm sure that he's friends with at LEAST some of his crew.
And if one part of it is crap, then can I believe anything else? I mean, obviously, some of it sounds like it's true, especially the stuff about Nicky. Does this make the "interview" a real one though?
U missed my point entirely.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jul 15 2009, 11:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>U missed my point entirely.
Thought I may have. Oh well.......

Its like it all depends on the people we are to who we support. I'm not a fan of cocky-ness and Rossi comes accross that way to me. But thats just me, thats why I like riders like Caparossi, Stoner, Hayden and Doohan. If Stoner comes in behind victory, then he likes to look at why so he be proactive, then he tells the media why because thats flowing through his brain.

And as with the powerslide of the rear end - I love that about MotoGP and Superbikes, I like to see them prove they know everything about what the bike can do, I don't care what they do after the race. Just like freestyle MX, I like the tail whip better than anything. I like watching Rossi ride a bike but don't care about what he does after the race.

Stoner is tough, he'll fight we'll see

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mattsteg @ Jul 14 2009, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The paddock doesn't need 18 Rossis and if it had them, to some degree there would be less to drive interest. 18 smiling, laughing people hiding their competitiveness under a veneer of charm wouldn't be nearly as interesting. The serious-personaed racers who just go out there and work their ... off add their own flavor to the paddock.

Asking someone to be something dramatically different from what they are isn't the answer. The whole "persona" part of the show gets lost if riders can't (at least somewhat) be themselves. Whether that's the entertainer Rossi, the aw-shucks hard-worker Hayden, the hard-charging Stoner, the bland Pedrosa, or anything else, to a large degree people are what they are. If anything, a touch of uncomfortableness with the media lends some authenticity to the whole production.

.... Dude, well written and a great point. I might be stating the obvious but yes, it's racing primarily, but the different personalities make it entertaining for the fans, and in the end it's really an advertisement for products (yamaha, ducati, honda, blah, blah, blah). I'm relatively new to this sport but it's obvious that it's also a drama production, just watch MotoGP.com's newest video clip advertising the upcoming race in Germany. It looks like a friggin WWF commercial (for non-yankees translate cheese ball fake .... wrestling commercial). But, we have to face the fact that if it weren't for the different personalities, bland, flamboyant, or .... like, we'd have a lot less to ........ about and the "emotion" behind the racing would be flat. If Rossi hadn't given Biaggi the finger after he'd passed him, the pass would have been less fantastic. Elbow to elbow racing brings most of us to the track or T.V. but personas make it humanly interesting. Pure entertainers, not really, pure racers, not really either.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 15 2009, 01:27 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I may be missing a bit - is this a discussion on Stoner's celebration (as Rossi needs no such discussion)?

Roger, Stoner will often pull monumental stand-up wheelies when crossing the line in first (even did it for third at Jerez this year) and has done for some time,so he does celebrate, but in the 'old school' variety and not with production type of pantomimes (as that is not his style).

As for the Rossi antics I will say now that in the early years they were entertaining as they seemed a spontaneous celebration of his joy, but they have since become tiresome as he has no doubt run out of ideas. I have no issues with his celebrating of major milestones and personally thought the 100 wins was somewhat subdued as I expected far more, but that is just me as I prefer the old days.

And it has to be remembered that whilst the Rossi phenomenon has bought with it a massive boost in dollar and fan numbers, the sport will always survive when he has gone just as it survived those great personalities of years past leaving.

The sport is always bigger than the individual, no matter how big or popular that individual may be.







Garry
wires crossed here Gaz i was answering to this

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>(mattsteg @ Jul 14 2009, 08:01 PM)
Sure. He's excellent at that and it adds value to what he delivers to his employer, but if he didn't deliver on Sundays it'd all be pretty meaningless. It's a lot easier to find a showman than to find a rider with the drive and talent to win world championships and races or even qualify and run high enough in the order to get regular TV exposure for sponsors.
were matt was talking about rossi celebrations.

i miss typed, it should have read "without" in stead of "with".
And yes stoner pulled some of the best wheelies since hopper

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SuperShinya56 @ Jul 15 2009, 01:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Who cares about Rossi's celebrations or anyone's for that matter. If someone wins a race they deserve to celebrate, as long as it's in good taste. Though Rossi's celebration with a blow up doll to mock Biaggi was a bit much but I got no problems with it. Like him or hate him, he is who he is.

Right on