Shwantz !? Whats the go??
- Thread starter BarryMachine
- Start date
Good post. I've enjoyed our dialog. Overall I don't think we're very far apart on things in general. I would like to continue - not because I have any need to
have the last word - but just for the fun of it, however I'm overwhelmed at work and trying to hustle my ... off to finish fulfilling orders before leaving on
vacation and this is really eating up time at a moment when I'm really under the gun. I'm more than happy if you have the last word. Oh and BTW - welcome
to Powerslide.
Cheers,
K
You don't remember the " top 10 guide/reasons" etc?
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
I'm still wading through it all. Sun must be running up quite a tab at the espresso bar.
Hadn't inspected Sun's "Joined" date. Amending my post now to say, Welcome Back.
Joined Oct 2006
445 Posts | 43+
Adelaide, Australia
Hadn't inspected Sun's "Joined" date. Amending my post now to say, Welcome Back.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Actually - I hadn't viewed that. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Funny stuff.
I'm still wading through it all. Sun must be running up quite a tab at the espresso bar.
Hadn't inspected Sun's "Joined" date. Amending my post now to say, Welcome Back.
Is it now becoming clear who you were debating?
More or less the beginning and the end of the conversation, imo.
Schwantz has been a little bit sideways with Spies for a long time b/c he doesn't feel that Spies pushes himself hard enough and he doesn't take enough risks. I remember when Schwantz jumped all over Spies for missing the Sepang test (IIRC it was going into the 2008 season) b/c Spies wanted to focus on his AMA 3-peat and the massive championship bonus that surely came with a three-peat. Schwantz was quite annoyed, and he voiced his concerns publicly. Ben tried to go at the last minute, but Suzuki declined. Who ended up making the big mistake in the Spies-Suzuki affair? Ben? I think not.
Kev and Ben appear to be two very different people. Spies is achievement motivated so he obsesses about setting achievable goals and reaching his goals with regularity. Schwantz is a much bigger risk taker. If we were watching them practice basketball, Spies would be working on his free throws and Schwantz would be working on his 3-point Jordanesque fade aways. Imo, Spies should not deviate from the mental approach that has made him a world champion.
Besides, Ben acquitted himself quite well in the fallout with Suzuki. He won the WSBK crown which made him a world champion, and now he has landed a ride on a factory Yamaha after 1 year with Tech 3. You can't do much better than that in 2 years! I think Spies has perhaps outgrown his mentor, and it's time for him to go it alone.
Look at Crutchlow.....won a WSS title, he had not so exciting splash in WSBK (lucky for him the Xerox guys were horrible this season) and landed a great seat in MotoGP within 2 years as well!!
I am kidding comparing CC to Spies, and I think you are spot on about Spies and his approach to his racing.
Question...did Suzuki snub him in 2008 for the 2009 MotoGP seat because he missed the Sepang test??
Doubt it. He missed the test well before scoring two solid results for Rizla at Laguna and Indy in 2008. If anything killed the deal, it was the blow up between Denning (I think) and Mary Spies about Bridgestones' tire selection for Ben at Laguna Seca. Apparently, tempers flared b/c Bridgestone or Suzuki refused to supply his tire choice for the race. Imo, Laguna Seca was a much bigger deal breaker than Ben dedicating himself to an AMA three-peat.
Joined Oct 2006
445 Posts | 43+
Adelaide, Australia
I can well imagine things going pear-shaped at that point. But there also seemed to be some friction over Spies refusing the Assen wildcard opportunity earlier in the year; perhaps that was the beginning of the end. I always wondered, though, who really turned who down. Did Suzuki actually give up on signing Spies because of money or personality clashes? Or did the Spies' camp balk at him potentially committing career suicide on uncompetitive machinery?
Of course, ever since Spies won his first AMA SBK crown speculation and interest had started about when/if he would 'go to Europe', and this only intensified after he won his 2nd straight title. But it never seemed a given that he would end up in MotoGP. There was a lot of talk about how he was too old, or had waited too long, that WSBK might be possible (but he was too big for a MotoGP bike), how he hated air travel and wouldn't be able to cope with it, and the fact that that he was earning a lot more money in the AMA and would have to take a huge pay cut to go and ride in Europe. After it became clear he wouldn't be riding with Suzuki in MotoGP in 2009, there were rumours about Spies perhaps riding a Honda for the JiR team. The idea that Spies would turn down a factory Suzuki for a satellite Honda always seemed a bit strange to me. I wonder how serious those talks were--or perhaps it was more of a PR stunt by Gianluca Montiron, who, at the time, was fighting with Team Scot over who could run a satellite Honda team in 2009?
And then came the signing direct to Yamaha, to ride in WSBK and progress to MotoGP. But, in what seems typical Spies' fashion there was a degree of uncertainty of the structure of the deal. Wasn't it supposed to be for 2 years in WSBK? As his amazing rookie year progressed it seemed that he had to win the title to go MotoGP early, or that Yamaha wanted him stay in WSBK for two seasons anyway, and so on. Yet before the championship was decided it was announced that he would be in MotoGP in 2010, reargless. Even his move to the factory team ifor 2011 hasn't been straight forward, and, really, seems only to be happening because Prost and Senna (er, I mean, Rossi and Lorenzo) can't stand to be in the same team any more.
When you look at the overall picture his progression from 3-time AMA SBK champ to WSBK champ to MotoGP rookie of the year to fully-supported Yamaha factory rider appears to be a perfectly ordered career path, but the undercurrents seem a lot more convoluted.
Joined Oct 2006
445 Posts | 43+
Adelaide, Australia
No, he rode at Donington. It was his MotoGP debut. He qualified 8th, and finished 14th (it was a wet race).
Assen was definitely a major contributor to Suzuki's aggravation. IIRC Suzi Perry interviewed Denning on the grid at Assen, and he came off as quite angry. Of course, Denning was emotionally composed as ever, but the manner in which he expressed his regret definitely conveyed some frustration towards Spies for returning home to race in the AMA. I think Suzuki took it too personally, and they were not considering the size of Spies compensation from American Suzuki or the importance of becoming 3 time AMA SBK champion. I doubt Rizla Suzuki would have been so upset if they were refused by a world superbike rider. It is a shame they didn't realize that a Yosh Suzuki 3-peat contract was a much bigger commitment than most (if not all) WSBK rides.
In the end, I think Suzuki did pass on Spies. The word around the AMA paddock was that Spies terminated with Yosh Suzuki long before he had a ride in either MotoGP or WSBK. He was chasing the Rizla Suzuki ride and I think he was more or less counting on them meeting his salary and equipment demands. I believe Paolo said that he was shocked when Suzuki didn't sign him and that IMS scrambled to put together a big deal for Spies to ride a factory Yamaha since WSBK desperately needed an American.
His career path has been convoluted, but I give Ben full credit b/c his performance has been consistent for 5-6 years. When you compare his career path with Casey's, it becomes clear how much Ben's work ethic has played a role. Casey accomplished very little in the lower classes, then one day he was on a bike that worked with tires that worked and he was able to show his real talent. Four years on, he is in the company of legends. Ben's career is very different. Methodical dismantling of the competition for a half decade. The only question, imo, was whether or not he could lose the weight necessary to ride in MotoGP. He dropped about 5-10lbs for his rookie WSBK season so I guess that alleviated Yamaha's concern.
correct.
Spies did not do the Assen round (IIRC it was a wet or possible wet weekend and he or Suzuki canned the idea of riding that round).
Plus....isn't the rule with a wildcard rider limited to only 3 rounds max in a season?? Spies had done Donington and there was Laguna (which he knew well and wanted to run) and Indy (which he tested first over all other GP riders, so he could see how he stacked up against the field on a new track for all riders). This might be why Assen was not a track he wanted to run if it meant he had to give up one of the US rounds.
^^^Excellemt post and spot on in my opinion. KS knows Spies and his thought process very well. His comment was the perfect thing to spur Spies to his greatest achievements. Most competitions at the highest levels in any sport are won and lost in the competitors head before the actual contest is ever waged. Ben is coming off a little too humble for a person who wants to be an elite Moto racer. This was not a "diss" by KS but an endorsement.
That comes over as incredibly dismissive of Casey's early career, as though you are insinuating his place at Ducati was not properley earned. Casey made himself a regular front runner in 125, led the KTM team and moved into 250 with a whole host of riders climbing the ladder. Straight away he was a regular winner and championship contender, finishing second only to Pedrosa. He then moved to motogp with a competative but not front running team and showed huge speed and potential (despite missing pre-season testing) and scored podiums and pole positions. Factory job rewarded, you know the rest.
Spies meanwhile wins 3 national titles, Narrowly beats Haga on a superbike then has a similarly impressive rookie campaign on a satellite GP bike. Now he's got a factory ride. I'm not suggesting that i think Spies will do a Stoner 07 on motogp next year, but their roads to the top have been fairly comparible despite the fact their approach to the actual riding is polar opposites.
His place in Ducati was not properly earned. Casey has obviously earned the seat 10 times over since joining the team, but his initial move to a factory team was based entirely upon his potential (not achievements), Ducati's desire to get younger, and Ducati's inability to sign other major riders. Casey's rise was hugely convoluted and very much based upon circumstance. It's dubious to claim that I'm dismissing Casey's achievements by using facts or widely reported information. I can't change the information surrounding Casey's ascension to Marlboro Ducati anymore than I can change the stats in the career achievements list. It is what it is.
Spies move to factory Yamaha is completely different. Spies has methodically ascended by virtue of his achievement. First, dismantling Mladin. Second, the WSBK paddock. Third, his Tech 3 teammate and all of the other satellite runners and MotoGP rookies. Only the fallout with Suzuki made his career appear uncertain. If viewed through the lens of the Suzuki fallout, Spies might appear to have inherited a good deal of luck, but for the people who've watched him for the last 4-5 years, we understand that somehow the guy makes his own luck by achieving things that cannot be overlooked.
Fair points.
Yep - all of the above is fact
Spies has earned a factory gig through impressive performances. I think Casey lucked into his factory ride a little, but showed them they made the right choice pretty quickly.
I completely disagree. I think Casey's factory ride doesn't seem as thoroughly earned as Pedrosa or Lorenzo for example who were each double 250 champions. But compared ot Spies i think Casey has definitely earned his position just as much. Especially considering Csaey got hired into the 3rd best factory team, Spies has been fast tracked into the first.
Do everyone a favour and look up the word 'fact'
Joined Oct 2006
445 Posts | 43+
Adelaide, Australia
There's no doubt that Stoner was in the right place and the right time. But if only championships count as achievements most riders never properly earn their seats. 'Properly earned'--a loaded term, if ever there was one--sounds a little too much like a certain line of thought that says championships need to be 'properly won.' Besides what about Stoner's 7000+ dirt track titles?
Well, not completely. Spies is not Yamaha's first choice for that factory seat.
