Should riders be penalised for "dangerous" riding?

tamada got punished for an incident with gibbers at montegi.
some months later paul butler the man in charge said " in hindsight it was just a racing incident and no punishment should have been levied against tamada san"
so if the top man even doubted his earlier decision they have no hope of making it work.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(roger-m @ Sep 3 2007, 01:21 PM) [snapback]88514[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
so if the top man even doubted his earlier decision they have no hope of making it work.


I think we were still experiencing a Kato backlash at that point, things have settled down since and i think things have been dealt with excellently since.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Sep 3 2007, 01:24 PM) [snapback]88515[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I think we were still experiencing a Kato backlash at that point, things have settled down since and i think things have been dealt with excellently since.

this is true, but nether the less it was a wrong decision that ruined tamadas championship and his career seemed to go backwards after that.
it just went to show that if one team shouted load enough they could get race direction to act out of hast rather than carefully look at all the facts.
i think race direction learned a valuable lesson from this and are now reluctant to act on such matters because it's so hard to be 100% sure. hopper sticking the boot out was a different matter.

There is a simple rule to follow,the race is longer than one lap .The hard bit is getting 19 or 20 riders to all think that way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Traverser @ Sep 2 2007, 01:59 PM) [snapback]88411[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
On a motorcycle, the price is paid when they hit the ground or each other. No one wants to do or see that. I could not live with myself if I caused a accident where someone lost a limb, life, or end up paralyzed. No amount of a fine could ever make up for something like that.

I can respect this line of reasoning. It seems logical that a rider who hits the pavement constantly won't survive to continue their antics. Of course, in the face of this nice observation, the claims that people will be too afraid to pass if fines are imposed is completely absurd.

Pain really is the only deterent to stop riders from causing accidents. The problem is unnecessary MotoGP accidents seem to resemble drunk driving accidents--the perpetrator emerges unscathed while the person who isn't expecting to get hit is injured.

Look at the Haydn/Pedrosa crash where Hayden came out slightly worse, or the Guintoli/Hoffman accident or Roberts/Melandri incident. OJ is the only one in recent memory where the perpetrator got what he deserved.

Really the more I think about it, Dorna should put a few rules in place to fine teams when their riders screw up. For instance, Kawi should have to pay Honda for the damage they caused (to a much lesser degree than actual cost). Whether or not the rider is riding according to team expectation can be assessed by the team, and they can decide whether or not to pass the fine to the rider.

I'm sure the more astute will realize the above means rich teams could run a demolition derby if they wanted to, but how is that any different than it is now? Rich teams can afford to wreck more bikes already. At least transfering team funds will create different environments for the perpetrator and the victim.

Edit: Docking a rider championship points is ridiculous. Besides the fact it completely changes the championship scoring structure, it puts the power in the hands of subjective Dorna rulings, not objective on-track performance. Give me a break people.

Good question Ben. Though I think you left out the most glaring incident that I think would have been at the top of the list under this category: Hayden/Pedrosa Portugal 06.

I voted yes, however, this would be in an ideal world only. I don't think political Dorna has the capability to be objective, so it seems that penalizing would be difficult to administer and the fairness would be questionable.

There is something to say for human error. So this I don't think should be penalized. Then there is human idiocy or blind envy. This of course should be penalized, but who the hell can distinguish the two?

I for one think that if ever there was an incident where a rider should have been penalized, it would have been Pedrosa in Portugal 06 and Rossi/Sete on that last turn incident where Sete was run off the track. This to me had nothing to do with human error, but rather human idiocy/envy. Now I bet there are half of you that disagree. So if there is disagreement in what I think are crystal clear incidents to be reprimanded, then making a rule to avoid this or penalizing is pretty much impossible.

As far as the Depuniet incident this weekend. I think it was a very aggressive move that wasn't necessary and was a bit reckless. But considering the circumstances, I'd blame him as much a Casey blowing that apex at Laguna and nothing more. No penalty needed.

Oh, and as far as the Kurtis Roberts/Melandri incident at Laguna, I think those who think it was Kurtis' fault are mistaken. It was a mechanical issue not "idiocy" on Kurtis' part. The bike lost power at the very moment that Melandri was on his heels. If ever there was a textbook "track incident" this one is that kind. It had nothing to do with rider error. You may want to check the facts before we go "disrespecting" (wit for IR) riders as "idiots".

Should riders be penalised for "dangerous" riding?

The very nature of racing a bloody fast motorcycle around a tarmac circuit is 'dangerous'. Put a whole bunch of them together and tell them the idea is to beat each other, it only gets more dangerous. So, what is a dangerous move?

Motorcycle racing, albeit a sport, has bigger consequences for small errors of judgement than other sports. Small errors of judgement often lead to very large crashes. Imagine a soccer comparison, minutes to go, and the ball floats over behind the incoming striker. Instinctively, he turns, and tries the big spectacular overhead kick. If it flies in the back of the net, he's a hero. If he misses the ball completely, he gets no worse than the howls of the crowd! In motorcycle racing the consequences of making an error in judgement can be huge, but the gap is still there along with a riders instinct, so he has a go if he thinks it's possible. Sometimes they get it wrong!

When it comes to Moto GP, personally I don't think any of these guys who have reached such prestigous jobs within 'any' Moto GP team can be deemed to be 'dangerous' riders. Competetive, aggressive, tough etc maybe, but not dangerous. Most dangerous riders careers end way too early through injury to ever reach such dizzy heights.

Now unsporting behaviour, that's a different matter!



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Racejumkie @ Sep 3 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]88622[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Good question Ben. Though I think you left out the most glaring incident that I think would have been at the top of the list under this category: Hayden/Pedrosa Portugal 06.

Still hurts eh!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Racejumkie @ Sep 3 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]88622[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
As far as the Depuniet incident this weekend. I think it was a very aggressive move that wasn't necessary and was a bit reckless.
From what I could see, it looked as if RDp highsided on his own, and took out DP with his body! Cold tyres, first lap, just another racing incident.

It’s a topical question, but not a relevant one. Topical in the light of RdP’s fall and subsequent blame by many fans who feel robbed of some spectacle but irrelevant in the fact that no rider or team felt strongly enough about it to lodge a protest.

Watch the footage. Did he lowside the because he was carrying too much lean angle on cold tyres? Couldn’t have, he wasn’t even leant over all that far when you first see the bike moving around. Did he high side trying to get on the gas too quick on cold tyres. Well if you watch the thing carefully you’ll see it starts to happen just as RdP and Pedrosa are entering the left hand turn and they’re both off before the apex and without carrying that much lean angle at all so it ain’t no high side either. I can’t see how CV had anything to do with it, he was a good couple of wheel lengths away from DePuniet even after he slowed slightly in the turn, not enough to spook any of these guys to grab a load of front brake. DePuniet and Pedrosa got into a tangle, plain and simple. Something on Pedrosa’s bike or maybe an elbow touched DePuniets brake lever. That’s what makes the rear lift off the ground. RdP can’t control it, who could, and the rest is history. Pedrosa’s reaction is typical but useless.

Whether or not it was a highside, lowside, backside or mudslide is also irrelevant. It’s a dangerous sport. By most peoples standards, all of these guys are riding dangerously all the time. Add to that the element of fierce competition and who can say when something is too dangerous. On Sunday, the only guy really fit to make the call that RdP was too dangerous was Pedrosa, but he knows what happened, and he knows that race direction look thoroughly at every incident and they know exactly what happened too. No foul = no protest = no punishment. To sit on the sidelines condoning even demanding punishment for a rider because you don’t like what they did is laughable. .... happens people. All of these guys are very mindful of how dangerous racing is, but they are also professionals so protests and punishments are rare. Racing incidents happen all the time.


edit: I voted no

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DRILL666 @ Sep 4 2007, 01:09 AM) [snapback]88563[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
There is a simple rule to follow,the race is longer than one lap .The hard bit is getting 19 or 20 riders to all think that way.


DRILL my mate...there are some BONEHEADS amongst them...that should be reprimanded and given an ultimatum!!!....ONE MORE & UR ba___ls will be cut off!!! you know like in the Roman days then they would have cut their heads off!!! or

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(michaelm @ Sep 3 2007, 09:12 PM) [snapback]88505[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I'll bow to the greater knowledge of mylexicon who said that rdp's crash was due to him leaning over too far on cold tyres but it did look to me like he was cramped by the suzuki directly in front of him.

That said, if opportunities over the course of a race are so few that you need to risk taking out multiple other riders in the first or second corner to maintain or gain a position the formula needs to be changed. I guess this is why rossi in his prime (I mean his prime both riding and equipment-wise) stayed out of the fracas for the first few laps.


Yes but, I must stress this to you all and that is:

Mr RdP has been in motoGP for quite a while’ it’s NOT HIS FIRST TIME in motoGP!!!... And RdP should know the dos and don’ts dos on the first lap and especially in the first corner of a race!!!... Well may be NOT!!!

Mr. (btw: I use that very loosely!!) RdP...LISTEN!!!....You “Don’t Win a GP on the 1st lap”... and that is on cold tyres that 'don't grip"...gee RdP Are You That THICK!!!...and Cold "Brakes" They Don’t Stop...Are You That THICK RdP???....and ALSO RdP...It’s a .... fight to the first corner anyways...Are You That THICK???....What Else Can I Say???.... RdP... UR officially been "CROWNED >>>THE FLYING ALL OVER OYSTER!!!"...cause Frog is a very big embarrassment to the French people!!!..It’s there natural cuisine!!!...come on now we can’t call RdP THAT???

It's just proves how desperate these (bottom guys really get!!) guys are at the end of the season when it comes up to "thinking about their livelihood"!!!...they don’t think of it at the start of the season!!!???...and when there given an ultimatum they DO DESPARETE THINGS!!!...simple as that!!!

regards, Steve

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CSCVAW @ Sep 4 2007, 01:43 PM) [snapback]88740[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>

It's just proves how desperate these (bottom guys really get!!) guys are at the end of the season when it comes up to "thinking about their livelihood"!!!...they don’t think of it at the start of the season!!!???...and when there given an ultimatum they DO DESPARETE THINGS!!!...simple as that!!!

regards, Steve


Well RDP isnt a bottom guy by any stretch of the imagination, and he already has a contract sorted for next year. Mistakes happen in this sport, most riders have done it, get over it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Sep 3 2007, 12:04 AM) [snapback]88439[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
This time he tried to achieve 80 degree lean on stone cold tires. Completely outside the realm of possibility....
....I can live with physical errors (imperfect riding) I can't live with people who can't be bothered to reason.
I’m not so sure Lex. Watch the video again and tell me what you think?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mylexicon @ Sep 3 2007, 08:09 PM) [snapback]88610[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
Pain really is the only deterent to stop riders from causing accidents. I think if you asked most of these guys it would be losing points, far more painful.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Checa_7 @ Sep 2 2007, 10:07 PM) [snapback]88412[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
However there are some cases in which I do think there should be punishments... e.g. Elias barging into Rossi earlier in the season.
Why should Elias be penalised for that 'incident' Checa?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom @ Sep 3 2007, 01:24 PM) [snapback]88515[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I think we were still experiencing a Kato backlash at that point, things have settled down since and i think things have been dealt with excellently since.
I agree Tom it's got to be a tough job.

IMHO the only time a rider should be penalized is if he shows some kind of idiotic unsportsman like conduct. theres is no way that u can determine dangerous moves. we need only go back & remember what happened at motegi a few seasons ago. the tamada/gibbers incedent, the hopper/bayliss/checa wreck, the capirossi bowling ball debacle & last but not least the rossi t-bonnin melandri bang up. tamada & hopkins took it up the poop shot on their incedents & of course cappers & rossi got nothing. so who deserved a penalty & who did'nt? oh & while were at it lets not forget the best move of all the 05 jerez move on sete by val! was it "dangerous" ????

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Checa_7 @ Sep 2 2007, 10:07 PM) [snapback]88412[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
IMO, every incident is a racing incident. powers that be will tell you that there is no such thing as an accident

just a series of events caused by negligence of a person or persons

therefore there is always someone at fault and thats where the punishment should lie

I've said time and time again why the hell does De Puniet keep getting rides. He has no feeling whatsover and relies on all the electronics to be fast like some of the other average riders in MotoGP would be 1min behind the top riders without them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Sep 5 2007, 08:14 AM) [snapback]88963[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I've said time and time again why the hell does De Puniet keep getting rides. He has no feeling whatsover and relies on all the electronics to be fast like some of the other average riders in MotoGP would be 1min behind the top riders without them.


He has no feeling whatsoever? Relies on electronics? Where have you come up with either of these ideas from. For a start the early development of the electronics in the 990cc era has allowed the systems to not take feeling away from the rider because thats just too dangerous. Also DePuniet is a multiple 250cc race winner, you need some pretty decent feel for the things he was doing just 2 years ago.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(an4rew @ Sep 5 2007, 08:14 AM) [snapback]88963[/snapback]<div class='quotemain'>
I've said time and time again why the hell does De Puniet keep getting rides. He has no feeling whatsover and relies on all the electronics to be fast like some of the other average riders in MotoGP would be 1min behind the top riders without them.


Obviously team managers, who know a thing or two about racing, don't think so.