NW200 Thurs/Sat

Jumkie said:

Ive love TT action, but im geting closer and closer to deciding this is a blood sport. Its not so much a display of skill as it is misplaced bravery. Im not so sure i like this anymore.

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You do know the NW200 is not the TT right?

chopperman said:

You do know the NW200 is not the TT right?

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Neither is the Assen GP, though they still call it the Dutch TT. Ah yes, not a TT in the (time trial sense). I was making reference to the Isle of Man TT in the sense that its a closed true "road course". Both equally unsafe, with mayb the NW200 being even more unsafe as they are actually racing each other on the course bringing in the element of other rider error. Not to mention its the 'fastest' road course (right). I don't know much about it other than what I've seen on Duke videos and torrent heisting.



I marvel at their skill, but then again, I'm sure I would have 'marveled' a two gladiators fighting to the death. I use to buy many road course races (as we get almost no coverage here unless they are doing some documentary on it), but I've watched it less and less the older I've become. I don't see the value of competitors cheating death as part of the unique inherent element of this particular competition.





Out of honest curiosity, Do you think the top road course riders could compete with "road course" Wsbk and MotoGP riders? What "skill" is on exhibition in real road courses then?

Jumkie said:

Neither is the Assen GP, though they still call it the Dutch TT.

Ah yes, not a TT in the (time trial sense). I was making reference to the Isle of Man TT in the sense that its a closed true "road course". Both equally unsafe, with mayb the NW200 being even more unsafe as they are actually racing each other on the course bringing in the element of other rider error. Not to mention its the 'fastest' road course (right). I don't know much about it other than what I've seen on Duke videos and torrent heisting.



I marvel at their skill, but then again, I'm sure I would have 'marveled' a two gladiators fighting to the death. I use to buy many road course races (as we get almost no coverage here unless they are doing some documentary on it), but I've watched it less and less the older I've become. I don't see the value of competitors cheating death as part of the unique inherent element of this particular competition.





Out of honest curiosity, Do you think the top road course riders could compete with "road course" Wsbk and MotoGP riders? What "skill" is on exhibition in real road courses then?

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To be honest i would think a lot of these I.O.M TT, NW200 ect riders would struggle in wsb and motogp as would the top wsb and motogp rider in the TT and NW200. Bit like asking a Rock guitar player to play the harp.

i have the same feelings jum, thats why i don't follow road racing too much and don't want to know too much about the riders.i always wanted to see the TT live just for once but i'm not so sure i want to be there anymore

can't really agree with the instrument metaphor, i think if rossi,lorenzo,stoner etc. could block out the fear or if the NW200 course had sufficient run off everywhere so that its only about skill than the road racers would lose, badly.

who was the last road racer to do anything in superbikes, gps?

chopperman said:

To be honest i would think a lot of these I.O.M TT, NW200 ect riders would struggle in wsb and motogp as would the top wsb and motogp rider in the TT and NW200. Bit like asking a Rock guitar player to play the harp.

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I agree, but what would make the GP riders "struggle"? Is it the skill set needed for the course (not sure what makes it any different than a closed circuit) OR is it the fear of death at every corner? Lets hypothetically add enough run off on that exact IOM/NW200 circuit course. Would the Wsbk/GP riders "struggle"?



BTW, to be clear, I would never tell these guys or campaign against this form of racing. Absolutely NOT. In a similar vein, I support the right to die! Whether it be for the purpose of relieving one self of pain and suffering, old age, an incurable disease, or the want to gamble with death in any form of activity, sport or otherwise.

chopperman said:

To be honest i would think a lot of these I.O.M TT, NW200 ect riders would struggle in wsb and motogp as would the top wsb and motogp rider in the TT and NW200. Bit like asking a Rock guitar player to play the harp.

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Couple of years ago I was talking to John McGuiness in the paddock at Snetterton. He had just finished a British Superstock 1000 race. Think he finished 8th.

I asked him how he thought the race went.

He said " I just cannot go any faster ". He was riding a very decent spec / team Honda.



How can this guy who is a legend at the TT and lap it at an average speed of 130mph + not even get a BSB ride, but then come 8th in a superstock race. From my point of view as a man who has never raced, I would think if you could kick ass at the TT, racing round a track would be easier !

Shows what I know

I marvel at what they do but dont get the point of it.



I look at it from the perspective of a family member. I dont think its fair to put those who love you in a position where they could lose you over a race

As far as I know they dont do it for extraordinary monetary reasons, its more for the adrenalin rush and love of it.



I think that those who have children and do it are irresponsible. As soon as you have children, your one job in this world is to guide them and raise them to be productive members of society.

Losing a father is an eternity of emptyness and sadness.

As a father, there is nothing on this planet, that is worth leaving a gaping hole in my daughters heart

Jumkie said:

I agree, but what would make the GP riders "struggle"? Is it the skill set needed for the course (not sure what makes it any different than a closed circuit) OR is it the fear of death at every corner? Lets hypothetically add enough run off on that exact IOM/NW200 circuit course. Would the Wsbk/GP riders "struggle"?



BTW, to be clear, I would never tell these guys or campaign against this form of racing. Absolutely NOT. In a similar vein, I support the right to die! Whether it be for the purpose of relieving one self of pain and suffering, old age, an incurable disease, or the want to gamble with death in any form of activity, sport or otherwise.

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Well im far from qualified to give you an answer compa. All i can say is ive seen very few closed circuit riders do well on the TT and vice versa. I think it's a state of mind. Riding with your head inches from a stone wall is not what a motogp rider is used too plus the different surfaces ect. As for TT riders on wsb or motogp i would think its the shear speed thats different and getting laps consistent to the tenths or even hundredths of secs is different.

JohnnyKnockdown said:

I marvel at what they do but dont get the point of it.



I look at it from the perspective of a family member. I dont think its fair to put those who love you in a position where they could lose you over a race

As far as I know they dont do it for extraordinary monetary reasons, its more for the adrenalin rush and love of it.



I think that those who have children and do it are irresponsible. As soon as you have children, your one job in this world is to guide them and raise them to be productive members of society.

Losing a father is an eternity of emptyness and sadness.

As a father, there is nothing on this planet, that is worth leaving a gaping hole in my daughters heart

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Hard to argue with that but i suppose its all down to personal choice. Thing is for most racing fanatics it's near impossible to get into wsb or motogp, but the iom TT its very possible. Its that or nothing.

Just had a chance to watch the NW200 torrent. Disappointed that I didn't see or hear a tribute to Mark. Maybe I missed it... Otherwise great racing. I think road racing is an amazing discipline in motorsports and have to disagree with the haters.

JohnnyKnockdown said:

I marvel at what they do but dont get the point of it.



I look at it from the perspective of a family member. I dont think its fair to put those who love you in a position where they could lose you over a race

As far as I know they dont do it for extraordinary monetary reasons, its more for the adrenalin rush and love of it.



I think that those who have children and do it are irresponsible. As soon as you have children, your one job in this world is to guide them and raise them to be productive members of society.

Losing a father is an eternity of emptyness and sadness.

As a father, there is nothing on this planet, that is worth leaving a gaping hole in my daughters heart

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As a father as well I find it difficult to understand the "shelter-the-kids-at-all-costs" mentality. There are an infinite number of ways we can be separated from our loved ones. I aways took pains to explain to my, now adult, daughters why I indulged in certain forms of risk-taking behaviour and how no matter how much you love the ones around you controlled risk-taking is the spice of life. Seems to have worked out alright - older daughter is an avid free climber and younger daughter is now heavily into heli, cat and extreme snowboarding. Far from being irresponsible, the love of the adrenaline rush is what makes life worth living, IMHO. The very last thing I would ever want to instil in my children would be raising them to be productive productive members of society - the freedom to enjoy life and think outside of societal norms is the greatest gift we can pass on to future generations!

For those so interested an excellent documentary on John McGuiness and why people are attracted to road racing.



PM me for a torrent.

cough empty your mailbox dude

got the torrent, but i'm looking for an invite to a special site where i can get 500cc stuff etc.

Mick D said:

Just had a chance to watch the NW200 torrent. Disappointed that I didn't see or hear a tribute to Mark. Maybe I missed it... Otherwise great racing. I think road racing is an amazing discipline in motorsports and have to disagree with the haters.





As a father as well I find it difficult to understand the "shelter-the-kids-at-all-costs" mentality. There are an infinite number of ways we can be separated from our loved ones. I aways took pains to explain to my, now adult, daughters why I indulged in certain forms of risk-taking behaviour and how no matter how much you love the ones around you controlled risk-taking is the spice of life. Seems to have worked out alright - older daughter is an avid free climber and younger daughter is now heavily into heli, cat and extreme snowboarding. Far from being irresponsible, the love of the adrenaline rush is what makes life worth living, IMHO. The very last thing I would ever want to instil in my children would be raising them to be productive productive members of society - the freedom to enjoy life and think outside of societal norms is the greatest gift we can pass on to future generations!

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Brilliant post Mick!

Well said and agree whole hearted with you!

Mick D said:

Just had a chance to watch the NW200 torrent. Disappointed that I didn't see or hear a tribute to Mark. Maybe I missed it... Otherwise great racing. I think road racing is an amazing discipline in motorsports and have to disagree with the haters.





As a father as well I find it difficult to understand the "shelter-the-kids-at-all-costs" mentality. There are an infinite number of ways we can be separated from our loved ones. I aways took pains to explain to my, now adult, daughters why I indulged in certain forms of risk-taking behaviour and how no matter how much you love the ones around you controlled risk-taking is the spice of life. Seems to have worked out alright - older daughter is an avid free climber and younger daughter is now heavily into heli, cat and extreme snowboarding. Far from being irresponsible, the love of the adrenaline rush is what makes life worth living, IMHO. The very last thing I would ever want to instil in my children would be raising them to be productive productive members of society - the freedom to enjoy life and think outside of societal norms is the greatest gift we can pass on to future generations!

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Nice straw man you have there.

FWIW, I'd argue that it is entirely possible to achieve all of these lofty goals, without splattering your brains over 5 acres of pavement. To my eyes, the IOM, NW200, etc., are good examples of uncontrolled risk. Dog help me, but I have to agree with that JK idiot, a parent does have a very real responsibility to his kids. Repeatedly indulging in activities as dangerous as this reeks of an addict's selfishness, and the twisted justification that you're somehow saving your kids from Terminal Pussification rings equally selfish and hollow.

i'm a bit on the fence here,

while i think micks post is brilliant and makes a very important point in todays society i also agree with geo.

the problem is where do you draw the line? is somebody racing in gps really that much better in regards to his family? i mean its difficult for me to say "yeah mcguiness is an irresponsible idiot towards his family" without thinking "why is edwards still racing?". (i personally would draw the line right there, but i'm aware that to somebody that is not as motorcycle mad that line seems arbitrary)

Geonerd said:

Nice straw man you have there.

FWIW, I'd argue that it is entirely possible to achieve all of these lofty goals, without splattering your brains over 5 acres of pavement. To my eyes, the IOM, NW200, etc., are good examples of uncontrolled risk. Dog help me, but I have to agree with that JK idiot, a parent does have a very real responsibility to his kids. Repeatedly indulging in activities as dangerous as this reeks of an addict's selfishness, and the twisted justification that you're somehow saving your kids from Terminal Pussification rings equally selfish and hollow.

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I agree with you. I don't think MickD's post carefully thinks through the consequences of a child losing a parent. First of all, lets not ........ ourselves in describing real road course racing as just "racing", like say GP. So lets all get pasted this point, shall we.



When these dudes are killed they basically have given the rearing of that child to a person who on the best day would love that kid a fraction of what normally a parent could. If one of the life lessons you are trying to give that kid is to be uber-selfish, then I suppose this is one way of doing it, because you've basically said, "who give a ...., I don't give a ....." But then again, if that parent has convinced themselves of the romantic naive ........ justification that 'doing what you love' is best when it involves 'playing with the edge of death' then maybe it is good that ....... poor kid become an orphan.



Speaking of parental responsibility, I too would like to continue doing whatever the hell I want, which in my case its not so much riding at 180mph next to a cinder block wall, but rather spending all night partying with the boys, drinking booze, and making my paycheck evaporate on whores; but I don't. I'd love to travel the world in search of the most beautiful whores across the earth, making stops in east Europe and the like; but I don't. Why? Because I'm a parent now.

wow,strong post jum

but then again its hard to judge and hence where to draw the line (not personally,but speaking normatively)

i don't intend to stop riding/racing when i'll have kids. theres the possibilty it will hurt or maybe even kill me no matter if its on safe circuits and i ride responsibly on the road.the possibility that something goes wrong for whatever reason is always there.thats sadly the nature of motorcycles

would that make me a bad father?i hope not

cliché guevara said:

wow,strong post jum

but then again its hard to judge and hence where to draw the line (not personally,but speaking normatively)

i don't intend to stop riding/racing when i'll have kids. theres the possibilty it will hurt or maybe even kill me no matter if its on safe circuits and i ride responsibly on the road.the possibility that something goes wrong for whatever reason is always there.thats sadly the nature of motorcycles

would that make me a bad father?i hope not

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Bro, I think there IS a point of limit. Sure, this point may be in some grey area, but lets look at the spectrum. Driving a car to work, dangerous? Yes. Within the grey area for a deadly activity? No. Taking an airline flight, dangerous? Yes. Within the grey area for a deadly activity? No. Driving Formula one cars, dangerous? Yes. Within the grey area for a deadly activity? Yes. Racing MotoGP/Wsbk, dangerous? Yes. Within the grey area for a deadly activity? Yes. Going to North Korea to sneak in and take pictures, dangerous? Yes. Within the grey area for a deadly activity? No, if you get caught you're likely gonna be dead. Racing on real road courses, dangerous? Yes. Within the grey area for death? No, if you crash you're likely gonna be dead.

i agree with what you're saying and your post is good and illustrates the point but i think you misunderstood me



all i'm trying to say is even though i can draw a line personally just for me i can't in good conscience condemn others for having other norms while i'm still involved in something very dangerous,albeit it significantly less dangerous



i would never race the TT, i'd plead to my friends and family not to do it but if they did i could not call them selfish ........ when i'm the guy riding around the nordschleife and potentially (at a much lower risk-no doubt) risk the same injuries and fatal consequences

I have to totally agree with mick d i dont see why having kids should mean you have to die for 20 years while they grow up, my kids know the extra dangers of riding fast bikes but realise that it makes me happy.



Having said that there is no right answer its everyones own opinion but I am sure that these riders have weighed up the options, to merely class them as selfish is imo a little harsh.