Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
That of course will have to be seen. But even the satellite Ducatis are all starting from the same base package as factory this year. As in the case of Honda, it has to be seen how the situation develops as the season goes on.
I find it interesting where Nicky says that Stoner wanted the bike as stiff as possible, whereas that did not suit him at all. Valentino arrived and the first thing he asked for was some more flex. So actually he could be better off with Rossi than with Stoner. Apparently, Stoner's spec Ducati is even more difficult than it need be.
I find it interesting where Nicky says that Stoner wanted the bike as stiff as possible, whereas that did not suit him at all. Valentino arrived and the first thing he asked for was some more flex. So actually he could be better off with Rossi than with Stoner. Apparently, Stoner's spec Ducati is even more difficult than it need be.
The third day of testing at sepang, and valentino's reported demeanour (and burgess's comments) susbsequent to that day suggest to me that they may well get the 2011 ducati to be both competitive and suited to valentino, and if so I agree this will help nicky. In particular the yamaha style front forks seem to present no difficulties, but as jb has said getting the forks to work was the fruit of much labour by yamaha. They need to demonstrate podium, or probably race winning, pace before stoner can be said to have made the bike more difficult for himself than it needed to be though. The presumably less stiff bike they ran in the early part of 2010 suited nicky better and improved his results but did not give him race winning or even podium capable pace, and appeared to take such pace away from stoner.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
Not so much for himself, if I understood it well, but for others. Casey could be the fastest on a very stiff Ducati even with a screamer engine -- others found it almost unmanageable. In 2010, when they made a more flexible swingarm for Nicky, he began to hit the top 4 consistently. So that may be the way ahead to build a Ducati for the rest of us.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Michael, i understood Nicky to say that despite Stoners resistance to make the bike less stiff, when he tried it with more flex, he liked it. Perhaps thats J4rnos point. But if its not, then its my point. Stoner won either way it seems, so if he liked it softer, then that was thanx to a cooperation from Nickys suggestion. I suspect it came about from a "just try it" request. As i doubt anything developed on purpose for Nicky, but rather, inspite of Nicky. This is just one thing that worked, as was revealed in the article. God knows the .... hes asked for and has been summarily dismissed, as i believe will b the case even more now.
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
All riders have their own teammate as enemy #1. So when they speak of collaboration etc. it's just PR. If a rider can impose a development path that suits him better than his teammate(s), he's happy. But that's not so easy to do. It means having a riding style that's very different from others, some kind of skill to go where others can't.
Doohan and Stoner are recent examples of that kind of riders, and both were apparently happy to keep things that way. I'd say Rossi is probably not that peculiar in his style, as "his" bikes proved always effective also for most other riders. So Nicky could be right, thinking that he'll better off with Valentino's Duck than with Casey's...
Doohan and Stoner are recent examples of that kind of riders, and both were apparently happy to keep things that way. I'd say Rossi is probably not that peculiar in his style, as "his" bikes proved always effective also for most other riders. So Nicky could be right, thinking that he'll better off with Valentino's Duck than with Casey's...
Re: Swingarms; so you're saying Stoner likes it stiff in the back end and Hayden likes it soft?
Casey has really amazed me. I recently rewatched many of the 2006 races and he was a fast rookie on a satellite Honda, often ahead of the factory bikes. In 2007 he may have had a large advantage but so did his teammate and Casey was the one who capitalized on it. He's subsequently also been fast on every variation of bike. The list includes:
-990cc satellite Honda
-800cc Ducati screamer
-800cc Ducati big bang (both the stiff and flexible chassis)
-800cc Honda
In the last 4 years no one has been as successful on varied equipment. His downside may be that his preferred setup isn't very forgiving and doesn't add consistency to his prodigious speed.
Casey has really amazed me. I recently rewatched many of the 2006 races and he was a fast rookie on a satellite Honda, often ahead of the factory bikes. In 2007 he may have had a large advantage but so did his teammate and Casey was the one who capitalized on it. He's subsequently also been fast on every variation of bike. The list includes:
-990cc satellite Honda
-800cc Ducati screamer
-800cc Ducati big bang (both the stiff and flexible chassis)
-800cc Honda
In the last 4 years no one has been as successful on varied equipment. His downside may be that his preferred setup isn't very forgiving and doesn't add consistency to his prodigious speed.
I would hardly say that his 800 cc Honda efforts so far a race proven successful.......or that his 8th place on the stunning albeit satelite Honda was a successful year at all...... So yes, he was successful on the Ducati-that makes 1 very quirky adaptation which in the following years spat him off almost more than not.
I have already said it, Nicky will be far more successful this year on a much more rideable machine.
I have already said it, Nicky will be far more successful this year on a much more rideable machine.
In answer to both you and jumkie, I was not intending to be critical of hayden, who has a proven record of developing bikes which suit both himself and others, including the bike that won the world championship in 2006 and his development of the ducati in the early part of 2010 which improved both his results and those of the satellite ducati riders.
My point, which valentino may be in the process of disproving, was that the way stoner had the bike set up may have been the only way which gave it race-winning pace, difficult though it may have been to ride for others and even him; my impression was that he was pretty beaten down by wrestling the thing by the end of his ducati stint, and he seems to have no objection to a presumably smoother honda thus far.
I think it is a matter of record that doohan went screamer not for any absolute performance advantage but because he thought only he could ride it; there was a long history though of him being displeased with honda not only for giving several riders bikes with the developments he had made but also giving others, and notably alex criville, his final and most successful settings from practice to use in the race. I don't think stoner has deliberately done anything similar though (partly because hitherto he has probably been too arrogant to be concerned about such things
I have no problem acknowledging valentino's greatness as a developer of bikes, or nicky's also proven talent in that field. As I have said previously though I think it is possible that ducati's chassis design presents problems which development can't solve, although going by jb's pronouncements post sepang I may be proven wrong.
Joined Feb 2008
2K Posts | 0+
home
Huhuh. Yeah, and right now Rossi and JB are trying very hard to soften up the Stoner Stiffy on the front....
Joined Oct 2007
4K Posts | 744+
Tuscany, Italy
In answer to both you and jumkie, I was not intending to be critical of hayden, who has a proven record of developing bikes which suit both himself and others, including the bike that won the world championship in 2006 and his development of the ducati in the early part of 2010 which improved both his results and those of the satellite ducati riders.
My point, which valentino may be in the process of disproving, was that the way stoner had the bike set up may have been the only way which gave it race-winning pace, difficult though it may have been to ride for others and even him; my impression was that he was pretty beaten down by wrestling the thing by the end of his ducati stint, and he seems to have no objection to a presumably smoother honda thus far.
I think it is a matter of record that doohan went screamer not for any absolute performance advantage but because he thought only he could ride it; there was a long history though of him being displeased with honda not only for giving several riders bikes with the developments he had made but also giving others, and notably alex criville, his final and most successful settings from practice to use in the race. I don't think stoner has deliberately done anything similar though (partly because hitherto he has probably been too arrogant to be concerned about such things), my hypothesis being that either his riding style is so idiosyncratic that it required settings not suited to others, or that the design of the ducati required such settings to be even potentially fast enough as I said earlier in this post. Valentino and nicky may well prove me wrong with regard to the latter if they succeed at qatar with a more flexible set-up, with added kudos to valentino as this will presumably also involve some tuning of the carbon fibre, not something he or jb have previously assayed.
I have no problem acknowledging valentino's greatness as a developer of bikes, or nicky's also proven talent in that field. As I have said previously though I think it is possible that ducati's chassis design presents problems which development can't solve, although going by jb's pronouncements post sepang I may be proven wrong.
Yes. That is the question: does the Ducati, as it is, need Stoner in order to win? Or will it need to make major design changes, notably get a proper frame, in order to win without Stoner?
Ducati certainly has lost a lot with Stoner. For me too, not seeing Stoner ride that red bike in his unique way, is going to be a loss. And I begin to wonder about him now, at Honda. The smooth Honda that at least 4-5 riders can ride top fast, and that will never be an untractable bike that only he can ride. I wonder whether he too has not lost something -- not the speed of course, but the "uniqueness" of his speed.
A very good point, concerning which evidence will be available soon, if he frequently crashes the hrc bike and others riding at a competitive pace don't . I think two other things could be involved; I think it has hitherto been in his nature to go for wins pretty well regardless of whether the bike was capable of winning, and the design of the ducati and his riding of it was fairly dependent on a particular hard compound bridgestone tyre not available since the control tyre came in, and it has been speculated (mainly on here cf lexfiles and tyre wars threads) not available for most of the 2008 season
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
Ducati certainly has lost a lot with Stoner. For me too, not seeing Stoner ride that red bike in his unique way, is going to be a loss. And I begin to wonder about him now, at Honda. The smooth Honda that at least 4-5 riders can ride top fast, and that will never be an untractable bike that only he can ride. I wonder whether he too has not lost something -- not the speed of course, but the "uniqueness" of his speed.
My feelings about stoner no longer being on a ducati are similar, particularly having been a ducati fan for much longer than stoner's career. I think your hypothesis that he may be hailwood-like and hence no faster on an "easier" bike is not unreasonable, and he also may need the challenge of balancing the bike on the edge; even when all was going so well in 2007 he sometimes looked more ragged in the few races where he settled for position.
I expect only dani to be his peer on a honda this year though; I don't see simoncelli as being quite at that level and he is physically disadvantaged in comparison to dani and casey due to his height and weight. Dani whilst untouchable on his day does not seem to be any more consistent than stoner, and also unfortunately does not bounce very well, with pretty well all his premier class seasons significantly affected by injuries.
(EDIT I think valentino could ride the bike like stoner did if it was his only option, but I think it is reasonable to assume he does not want to, and stoner's 2010 dnf rate would obviously be unacceptable to him.)
This is all a little conspiratorial, and if there's truth in it, I would love to see the excuse Bridgestone had for not making it available before the single tyre rule applied.....I'm sure Jum's has a 'Theory'
The can of worms I believe though is the Single Tyre rule which is the one factor which appears is to remain unchanged for 2012, not too mention a very large multi-national supplying them who wins either way, hardly competition.
The Single tyre rule, and tyre allocation rule, are the root of the problem in Motogp. Compounding other large issues like the Engine and Fuel limit regs for teams. The sooner the Kmart attitude to tyre supply is again replaced by a more bespoke approach the better....
It was lex's theory, and his hypothesis was that bridgestone did a trial run of the control tyre rule in 2008 at dorna's request prior to the rule becoming official in 2009. Whether the control tyre is a good idea or not I think it has disadvantaged both stoner and rossi who were the only ones that could/did use the really hard compound tyre.
