Joined Mar 2023
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MotoGP announces 2027 regulations
- Thread starter JFM01
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Joined Aug 2007
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I don’t know how these things work. Anyone think there’s a possibility that changes to regs about the standard ECU might still be being negotiated, to be announced at a later date? I’ve hated that regulation, even more than the control tire, which I was initially in favor of, as long as Bridgestone was making them. The Japanese were so good at it that, I never featured the possibility that any of the other manufacturers would have been able to compete with them.
Joined Oct 2008
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In Cider
They are vague on the details, but it essentially looks to be a 'data sharing' move to allow slower teams/riders to see faster teams/riders data.
From the MotoGP site:
I suspect it is aimed at helping Honda and Yamaha. Though what use they'll get from seeing data from another manufacturer is questionable.
Details about the electronics were noticeably absent from the announcement. It's possible they could still be negotiating the particulars of the ECU. Perhaps they are fielding proposals from multiple suppliers to see if costs can be reduced. I'm unsure if manufacturers can develop the engines without the electronic information.......unless they've buried a bunch of specs in the engine homologation procedure. If they are all going to us 90-degree V4's with one firing order, perhaps they don't need to know everything about the spec ECU to get started?
Joined Apr 2015
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NJ
My initial impression of the regulations is that displacement should have been cut to 750cc. I think 850cc is just a weird place to go with the engine displacement. I felt the same way with the 800cc formula. I would have liked to have seen them go back to 2-stroke engines just to see what the engineers could design in terms of a modern 2 stroke engine with the efficiency that we've come to see from GP engines over the last decade or so.
But that all being said, it should have been in my opinion a 750cc/4-stroke engine. I think in addition to that, the bore and stroke should have been explored more than it appears. Not sure decreasing from 81mm down to 75mm will really make that much of a difference since the stroke appears to be remaining the same.
Shapeshifters/ride height devices going is a welcome change, but it doesn't look like anything will change with regards to front fairing aero outside of width.
Let's face it, they are trying to keep the racing as close as possible compared to the old days. 2027 will be interesting to see if anyone gains a massive advantage for at least the first year of the formula.
Honda should probably start designing the RC214V now. Why waste the money on a now dead formula that we're only going to have for another 2 1/2 seasons?
ECU information needs to be released in my opinion. Wish they'd go back to the custom ECU's, but again not going to happen.
What manufacturer will benefit from this formula change will be interesting to watch unfold. I also do not expect any new manufacturers to join either. Maybe I'll be wrong on that, but I can't see anyone coming in.
But that all being said, it should have been in my opinion a 750cc/4-stroke engine. I think in addition to that, the bore and stroke should have been explored more than it appears. Not sure decreasing from 81mm down to 75mm will really make that much of a difference since the stroke appears to be remaining the same.
Shapeshifters/ride height devices going is a welcome change, but it doesn't look like anything will change with regards to front fairing aero outside of width.
Let's face it, they are trying to keep the racing as close as possible compared to the old days. 2027 will be interesting to see if anyone gains a massive advantage for at least the first year of the formula.
Honda should probably start designing the RC214V now. Why waste the money on a now dead formula that we're only going to have for another 2 1/2 seasons?
ECU information needs to be released in my opinion. Wish they'd go back to the custom ECU's, but again not going to happen.
What manufacturer will benefit from this formula change will be interesting to watch unfold. I also do not expect any new manufacturers to join either. Maybe I'll be wrong on that, but I can't see anyone coming in.
Joined Oct 2008
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In Cider
Evinrude E-Tec boat engines have been using fuel injected 2 strokes for years and have supposedly better emissions and obviously more power for a smaller displacement than 4 strokes. I'd like to see something like that too.
I agree.
I agree that 750cc would make more sense from a marketing standpoint. The issue was probably that the targeted power output (apparently around 225bhp) would have required undesirable rpm and undesirable reduction in torque. Assuming 225hp from a 75mm bore 750cc, you're looking at ~18,500rpm. Maybe they didn't want to raise the rev ceiling 2,000rpm and cut torque by 25%? That was the mistake they made during the 800cc era. Cut torque 20% and move it 20% higher in the rpm range. In 2027, the operating rev range should be nearly unchanged, meaning that power and torque will be cut 15% throughout the power band.
The interesting thing about this formula that I hadn't previously considered is that these 850s will make less peak horsepower than the 800s. The 800s were not bore limited, and they were using 21L of fuel. The 850s will be limited to 75mm bore and 20L of fuel. I believe the 800s were actually rev-limited to 19,000rpm for a variety of reasons, if so that means the peak bhp of the best 800cc bikes was around 250, while the current bikes are closer to 225bhp. The production of torque will be the main difference. I hope that leads to more interesting racing!
The possibility of proprietary electronics is slim, imo, but possible. They have proprietary systems in WSBK by limiting the number of sensors and the computing power. WSBK is a different situation. The electronics must be sold the privateers at set price, and customer teams are less inclined to work with your organization if you're overclocking and overcomplicating your system. In MotoGP, they don't care. If you limit computing power without spec hardware, they will have watercooled electronics before the 2027 season begins. Maybe they can work something out, though. The MSMA are not fond of the spec hardware.
MotoGP, Bonora: "MotoGP needed limits, the rider will return to the center of the game"
MotoGP: INTERVIEW - Aprilia's Race Manager on the new regulations: "we expect 25 to 30 hp less. GPS will be useful for the teams to improve, but also Race Direction and the show."
www.gpone.com
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to speculate before the cat was out of the bag, but in years past there have been indications that the teams and the governing body employs analysts (or spies, if it sounds cooler) to observe the bikes to glean information about performance. The first I'd heard of this was at China in 2007 when Dorna had people measuring the cornering g's at Turn 1. More recently, HRC supposedly closed the Malaysia test to the public at the last moment because they were worried about people photographing and or filming their bike. Anyway, Bonora confirms videographic analysis is a thing, but I'm confident analysts use an array of sophisticated electronic tools to gather telemetric information about other bikes.
Rather than pay analysts to gather this information, the MSMA will increase GPS accuracy to 50cm, and all teams will have access. According to Bonora, this will allow all teams to have access to telemetric and positional data. Race direction will benefit from improved GPS as well. Rivola believes it will merely lead to a surge in analytics, rather than data gathering, as supposedly happened in F1 when the GPS was open-sourced.
Joined Apr 2015
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NJ
You bring up great points regarding cutting the power output while not trying to raise the rev ceiling. I guess this is what frustrates me with the claims that this is a prototype series. Let the engines spin to 20K or more if it can be designed reliably. I guess perhaps the good thing is that we won't hear the bitching we heard about the noise or lack thereof when F1 switched to their current formula in 2014. The engines are still going to spin high.
Though I am dubious that the targeted power output will stick to 225BHP for very long especially given Ducati's seemingly endless ability to extract power out of their engines. So we've got less than 3 years till lights out in Qatar under these regulations. I suspect the teams will keep rather mum on developments so we're not likely to have any real ideas till Valencia 2026 and that could be a big maybe.
The fuel reduction, does it really matter as much since the engine weight should in theory be down? As well as the rest of the bike since the shapeshifters and so forth will be gone? That's all weight savings that might in the end negate the fuel reduction so it wouldn't be all that different from now. Just a vapid talking point that has no basis in reality but will be used to push MotoGP's green agenda. Though I find the biofuels more interesting than a 2 liters reduction in fuel load.
I would like to see full proprietary systems again for the ECU with the caveat it be given to the customer teams.
I get why Casey isn't happy with this formula. To be honest, I'm not thrilled with it, but I know some years back he advocated for a 750cc/2-stroke formula. I think that could have been incredibly interesting, but I think Dorna/GP consider 2-stroke engines to be relics of a bygone age. I don't know, in my world I'd probably have opted for that formula if I could pick anything. In this day and age with social media, could you imagine how insanely popular the 500cc World Championship would have been when people realized there were no gizmos or computers controlling anything? Just pure skill and bravery.
Joined Sep 2015
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Office cubicle
Two more years of being as awful as they're now and they risk alienating every possible talented rider they might have set their sights on. Even if they manage to make a great bike out of the bat for the new regulations, as a manufacturer you want the best possible talent on it, employing Nakagami and Marini won't cut it.
I've hoped for many years that MotoGP would adopt a fuel flow regimen similar to F1 or the old LMP rules. 1000cc for everyone. Not only would it encourage variety, but it's backward compatible with all previous engine formulas. The unfortunate reality is that the manufacturers don't want to invest in ICE development. They don't think ICE's will be around much longer in the production market, and they don't earn enough from MotoGP to care about race engines. They want a guarantee that they will be within a few percentage of everyone else, and they can tinker with the engine when they have money.
Regarding 2-strokes, it would be fun to see them return, but they would have to be limited as well. State of the art two-strokes have direct fuel injection and overhead poppet valves to control the intake and pressure wave. Maybe allow mechanical fuel injection, but if they start introducing electronics to the equation, it will just be a smokier version of 4-stroke MotoGP.
Joined Mar 2023
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Australia
Would not developing the current bikes and focusing almost solely on development of the 214 leave them behind the 8ball still while other manufacturers may make advances with the current rules that can be adapted to the 2027 rules?
Outside of the holeshot and ride height devices which sound like they're not that complicated once implemented the rules are very similar.
You have always managed to be best informed and most knowledgeable about all this, but do you have any idea what Honda have been doing if anything these last several years ?.
Nakamoto said before the spec ECU it would screw Honda and threatened to pull out of the series, but that was more than a few years ago now. I presume they can still build engines, as i understand it the Red Bull F1 engine is basically a Honda engine, and they are re-entering the F1 fray under their own label presumably with some confidence.
So have they not ever redesigned an engine presumably originally designed to work with their bespoke software and are waiting for the new formula ?. My technical knowledge is rather lacking, but if the desmo valve stuff might give Ducati something of an intrinsic advantage in a fuel economy formula you would think Honda the famous engineering company could still match or better the other manufacturers .
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Joined Mar 2023
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Joined Oct 2008
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In Cider
Interesting comments from Gigi here, he wanted Hybrid engines for 2027.
Gigi Dall’Igna wanted hybrid MotoGP engines for 2027
He also confirmed that SBK regulations will need changing to 'avoid overlapping' with MotoGP (i.e make them slower). I think it was Lex that first mentioned SBK changes on here?
Gigi Dall’Igna wanted hybrid MotoGP engines for 2027
He also confirmed that SBK regulations will need changing to 'avoid overlapping' with MotoGP (i.e make them slower). I think it was Lex that first mentioned SBK changes on here?
In my layperson’s opinion the best engines are only gaining 1-2 peak hp with each major revision. The 1-hp-per-year is achieved by improving piston rings, cylinder treatments, lubricants, etc.
Imo, bigger gains can be made playing around with intake tuning, combustion chamber shape, etc to gain 1-2hp throughout the rpm range.
The window into HRC's inner workings has been the interviews and press releases. Those are few and far between these days. The last gold nugget out of the HRC garage was Repsol claiming that maybe Michelin had a hand in building the legend of Rossi. Since then, the veil surrounding HRC has become quite opaque. I'm unsure of their plans, though pundits have suggested that Honda value the first and last season of any formula. They got the job done in 2006 and they didn't let up in 2011. However, I sense that GP and SBK are not aligning with Honda's values, and they don't have the motivation to push for victory in 2026. Maybe the 214V is the best use of their time?
I have advocated for detuning SBK on several occasions, though not in this context. The performance relationship between SBK and GP is not as important to me as SBK's business model. They've moved heaven and earth to make SBK a production racing series, and yet, the series is still struggling with high costs and electronic complexity. Tire performance is also an issue. As a result, private teams are still begging for handouts, even in WSSP. This is what brought down AMA Pro.
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